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Thread: Trail Braking

  1. #31
    apriliaforum expert yamaholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LUCKY DAVE View Post
    I trailbrake in every corner (both brakes) as standard practice, no matter what I am riding, or driving. Moto GP bike or forkilft, it's all the same.
    The object is to release brake pressure at the same rate as you introduce cornering load so that you use BOTH tires at 100% effort all the time. Not using both tires 100% all the time is slower. Or use them at 15% if that's the pace you're riding, but always ride like a pro racer, or as near as you are able.
    Another advantage of trailbraking is it compresses the front suspension and transfers weight to the front tire. This both increases rake making the steering quicker and increases grip at the front battling the bike's tendency to run wide. This is also true in cars.
    As I began racing at age 9 and am still racing at 63 (and won my 14th championship last year) I might know what I'm talking about.
    If you make a big effort to ride like a pro all the time, it becomes automatic.


    Very well said. I tend to favor the front more than the rear. But this is how it SHOULD be done.

    The 20% thing depends on your ability. You can’t site distances because everyone’s distance is different. Know the max of your ability. That’s 100%. then pull back 20% for the street and ride with that reserve.. If something comes up, there is 20% within your ability to deal with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed / AF1 Racing View Post
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  2. #32
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    If you're leaned over and brake with the front, this causes it to lose traction. But if you do the same with the rear, all's good? Doesn't add up to me, especially when you factor in the "throttle chop" and engine braking, plus the eventual weight transfer from the deceleration desired in the first place. Unless it's very slippery and there is little weight transfer possible, you should have a fair bit more grip available on the front, otherwise it's 50/50 at most. Granted a rear-end skid is often easier to recover from than a front end one, especially if riding hard enough to require "steering with the rear".

    But: there should normally be no reason to skid. Learn braking finesse (much harder on the rear: I recently saw a video of su-mo guys applying the rear brake with their foot off the peg to "back it in"; one to try) and don't go too fast for the conditions / how far you can see ahead.

    If I feel like I've gone in "too hot" (usually just psychological if I'm honest), I just drop my body lower down on the bike and look where I want to go, the rest seems to sort itself out (another argument for road riding at 80%). If reacting to something mid-corner, well good luck. The only thing to be done is to gradually practice braking whilst cornering, both brakes together and each separately - you won't get that skill by osmosis. Maybe stand it up and take your chances with the traffic / scenery, who knows.

    Track riding is a different matter (always trail brake, as little as possible), but is definitely the best place to practice. I've been increasing my confidence with the front brake on track and it's made my road riding a lot safer, giving me a larger margin for error as I can maneuvre safely rather than target fixate / do nothing. That is unless I use that confidence (and margin) to just ride faster...


    I would thoroughly recommend riding off road as well, you'll first feel like you can't brake at all, but soon enough you'll be trail braking on the trails too! If you ride a pedal bicycle with half-decent brakes, it's the same there - it's all practice, it all hones useful reflexes and constructive self-analysis / honest reflection.
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  3. #33
    apriliaforum Junkie SudEst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamaholic View Post
    how?

    if your trail braking properly it makes utilizing the brakes mid corner much easier and more efficient because your already on them.

    Not to to mention the title of the thread is “trail braking”
    Because the question was: when you guys go in hot which brake do you use to scrub off speed?

    If you were trail braking, you're already using a brake to scrub off speed and you're slowly releasing it.

    The question to me reads like: when you get into the corner and think you're going too fast, what brake should you apply more of?

    They are different things to me. Trail braking is a deliberate application of the brake after the steering input has been made. After the steering input has been made you are gradually using less brake, not more.

  4. #34
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    For the typical rider how many can ride at 80% and quantify that? On a controlled course it's practical and might be measurable even, anywhere else it's a big guess. The problem with percentages is that if you are riding at some 80% number that other 20% is what? Is it a margin that you practice and are confident is yours and available when you need it or is the 20% that last gasp of some technique you haven't practices or just more of the same and you hope it works?

    Most riders probably ride at their comfort level and unlike in a car where you're sitting on 4 wheels and and the thing isn't going to slide out from under you or toss you over the side, that extra 20% is vapor

    Actually try it, ride a route at 80% and then try 100% and see if that 20% really exists, you should be able to measure it.

    Your comfirtable riding is your 100% and anything beyond that is an emergency, short duration or not. This is riding on public roads I'm talking about, not some closed course.

    I've yet to ever see someone take a route at some made up percentage of their skill level and then be able to describe in more than something made up, where that other 20% is. That 20% simply isn't there and that is why riders go off roads, slam into immovable objects and become the latest news item.

    By the time you get to needing that 20%, too you've already used it and the rest is hope.
    Last edited by CapoEVT; 07-14-2019 at 04:09 PM.

  5. #35
    apriliaforum expert the_toe_cutter's Avatar
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    Was on the back of a fast, by fast i mean proper fast fellas bike yrs ago and the amount of front brake he carried up to the apex was mad. Guess he had a finer appeciation for where the limit and was, and was prepared to hang around that territory.
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  6. #36
    apriliaforum expert LUCKY DAVE's Avatar
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    Actually try it, ride a route at 80% and then try 100% and see if that 20% really exists, you should be able to measure it.
    You can if you are on a race track.
    Let's postulate you are going 1 minute laps at 25% effort. 75% effort will yield 55 second laps, 97% will be 54 seconds, and 100% will be 53.78 seconds.
    The last little bit of speed is where all the effort is.
    A finish is a win! Moderation is the key! More wine!
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  7. #37
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    Like I said, not talking about race tracks. Most of us aren't riding race tracks where some car is on the outside lane in a corner and you think there is 20% coming in from somehwere because you know what 80% is and had that reserve.

    Riders on race tracks is a closed course where dangerous people are asked to leave. There is no such thing out on the roads.

    Maybe 1 in 10,000 riders know what their bike can really do under their control, they don't explore those limits so they have no idea what riding them below the limit is. Hats off the riders that actually know but how many are there, really?
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  8. #38
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    For a lot of riders, it's true to say the bike is more capable than they realise or feel comfortable exploring. So "80%" of one's own maximum ability to exploit what the bike is capable of should be well within the bike's actual physical capability. The trick here is being honest with yourself and testing / training your ability and reactions in a safe manner.

    For those that overestimate the bike or themselves (which is surely all of us from time to time), they'll normally get plenty of messages to set them straight before outright disaster occurs. If they ignore those, sure, bye. If they take the feedback on board, they know better than most where the limit is. The trick is staying away from it the next time...


    By far the easiest measure is "could have gone faster through there" - this should always be the outcome on the road. Then it doesn't matter if it's 20% or 2% in hand, it all helps in the case of rider error. Anything else, ride proactively not reactively - good luck.


    But whether you're riding at 100% or 1%, there's a physically optimal way to brake. On the one hand, on track, it means you will carry maximum corner speed. On the other, on the road, it means you will always have the most grip in reserve. It's making the most of the available traction in either case. But it requires practice in both cases.
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  9. #39
    apriliaforum expert yzr750's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LUCKY DAVE View Post
    I trailbrake in every corner (both brakes) as standard practice, no matter what I am riding, or driving. Moto GP bike or forkilft, it's all the same.
    The object is to release brake pressure at the same rate as you introduce cornering load so that you use BOTH tires at 100% effort all the time. Not using both tires 100% all the time is slower. Or use them at 15% if that's the pace you're riding, but always ride like a pro racer, or as near as you are able.
    Another advantage of trailbraking is it compresses the front suspension and transfers weight to the front tire. This both increases rake making the steering quicker and increases grip at the front battling the bike's tendency to run wide. This is also true in cars.
    As I began racing at age 9 and am still racing at 63 (and won my 14th championship last year) I might know what I'm talking about.
    If you make a big effort to ride like a pro all the time, it becomes automatic.
    Yeah, when I first started racing I volunteered as a corner marshal at national and international races and watched how the top level riders rode, they all trail braked right up to the apex.
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  10. #40
    apriliaforum expert yzr750's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kennibear View Post
    yzr750:
    Perhaps you miss the point.
    I ride aware of my situation and avoid abrupt stops like the plague. I don't mind using 70% of my traction to accellerate but try to keep the bike under 20% of its capability stopping. At 20% the rear is sufficient. That does not mean I don't use the front. I use it when I need to, like headed north on the I-5 and coming up on the Mercer Str. exit where it is blind right at the off ramp entrance. 60mph+ to a traffic jam in about a hundred yards. Front brakes used. I just try to pace my stopping so the rear brake is enough. That mindset has kept me out of a rear bumper for 50 years.
    One more thing. The cager behind you cannot stop as fast as you. Hammer your front brakes in traffic and you will be inspecting the undercarriage of the cager behind you. Front brakes are the best thing about most bikes. But if you plan not to use them you will find you avoid panic braking a lot. A matter of perspective not capability.

    KB

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    I presume you've done most of your riding on cruisers?
    Don't know about the car thing, I reckon my car can stop quicker than my bike, probably depends on the car or bike in question tho'.
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  11. #41
    apriliaforum expert LUCKY DAVE's Avatar
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    For a lot of riders, it's true to say the bike is more capable than they realise or feel comfortable exploring. So "80%" of one's own maximum ability to exploit what the bike is capable of should be well within the bike's actual physical capability. The trick here is being honest with yourself and testing / training your ability and reactions in a safe manner.
    You're on the right track here (so to speak haha).
    The only time I ride more than 40~50% of my ability on public roads is on one of those rare occasions when I'm with the group of retired pro roadracers that I do long rides with, and then only on very select (safe) sections of desolate road. We are a small group, inviting an unknown friend to join on a ride is strongly frowned upon (if the rest of the guys don't know him by reputation, don't even ask). Sooner or later (more likely sooner) most riders will throw it on the ground riding over their head to keep up with our "40~50%", and that turns everyone's epic ride into a miserable rescue.
    Ride at speeds that are sensible for your skill level, the equipment you are on, and the conditions. Ignore that rule and pay the price.
    A finish is a win! Moderation is the key! More wine!
    And never lend a faggot your hat

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  12. #42
    apriliaforum expert cggunnersmate's Avatar
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    Well those of us who came up on first Gen Milles and Tuonos learned pretty early not to even bother ever using the rear as it's most likely turned to mush 500 miles after the last bleeding anyway. So I trail brake in with the front obviously.
    Last edited by cggunnersmate; 07-15-2019 at 08:38 PM.
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  13. #43
    apriliaforum prov-nov sdiver68's Avatar
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    I just grab a big handful of front brake and let cornering ABS take over.

    But seriously, I feather the front and be prepared for the bike wanting to stand up. There are great arguments for learning the rear* But Alex Marquez turned the same lap times in a Moto2 race in which he podiumed with the rear brake gone, Qatar 2018. And I won many races with the front only. So, it comes down to preference.

    *Such as Dovi saying it's the only way he can get the Ducati GP18/19 to turn. Then, Lorenzo learned to use the rear brake after rarely using it on the Yamaha and started winning on the Duc.

  14. #44
    apriliaforum expert LUCKY DAVE's Avatar
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    Good riders have been using rear brake to change the balance to oversteer to speed up rotation in tight corners since forever.
    Practice on a dirt bike.
    A finish is a win! Moderation is the key! More wine!
    And never lend a faggot your hat

    Proud Member of Team Punisher and The Texas Mile 200 MPH club
    Motorcycles are not just fun toys. They are a catalyst for the enjoyment of life. - NaimChase
    When you ride a bike that tries to crawl out from underneath you at 150MPH with a slight twist you know you're on the right path. - TRexRacing

  15. #45
    apriliaforum expert plocky's Avatar
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    That video that Yamaholic linked is excellent. Have a listen to Simon Crafar.







    & this one I forgot about that is also excellent.

    Last edited by plocky; 07-19-2019 at 03:01 AM.
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