Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 107

Thread: Trail Braking

  1. #46
    apriliaforum expert WadeS02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pert near on the Agonic
    Posts
    9,504
    A number of years ago I had a riding coach try to demonstrate the benefit of rear braking to tighten up a line. As he approached the apex the rear locked up and he low sided. Whoops...
    Windmill cancer survivor.
    I don't care about my apathy.

  2. #47
    apriliaforum prov-nov sdiver68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by WadeS02 View Post
    A number of years ago I had a riding coach try to demonstrate the benefit of rear braking to tighten up a line. As he approached the apex the rear locked up and he low sided. Whoops...
    I was running race school for MCRA a couple of years ago. Track/class sessions in the morning with a mock race at the end of the day. Our school is held during mixed track day/racing events so not only was I teaching in the morning but using advanced/racer sessions to practice and intermediate sessions to coach in the afternoon. 1 corner in particular at this track has always been a pain for me so while trying to reduce my sector time I low sided during advanced session. I had to borrow a bike to coach the remaining 2 intermediate sessions.

    Not the same but still, it happens. And a little embarrassing!
    Last edited by sdiver68; 07-19-2019 at 04:57 PM.

  3. #48
    apriliaforum expert
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    California
    Posts
    605
    The key is a light touch. Most rear brakes has less feel than the front, you have a boot on, a long metal lever and all that. Top that off with not using it much if you are in that party and then trying to apply it with anything approaching moderation is futile. Rely on ABS as is so common now and using a rear brake effective is a lost art.

    If you really practice using the rear brake as much as the front you might be amazed at how effective it can be. Running around using only the front because it has 80% or so of the stopping power throws away the other 20%, how that makes any sense is a true mystery.
    ETV stands for Extra-Terrestrial Vehicle. The only thing better than having one is having two.

  4. #49
    apriliaforum prov-nov sdiver68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by Capob[/HTML
    EVT;4596676]Running around using only the front because it has 80% or so of the stopping power throws away the other 20%, how that makes any sense is a true mystery.
    Doesnt make any sense because your "facts" are wrong. The rear wheel has almost zero traction at maximum braking on a sportbike. Ever see the rear of the bike in the air or skimming the road? Learn to use the front brake, your life may depend on it.

  5. #50
    apriliaforum expert FZ1JOE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Long Island NY
    Posts
    752
    Quote Originally Posted by WadeS02 View Post
    A number of years ago I had a riding coach try to demonstrate the benefit of rear braking to tighten up a line. As he approached the apex the rear locked up and he low sided. Whoops...
    How did the lesson go after that ??

  6. #51
    apriliaforum expert LUCKY DAVE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Encinitas, ca
    Posts
    5,575
    The rear wheel has almost zero traction at maximum braking on a sportbike
    Absolutely true.
    Not true on long wheelbase cruisers and touring rigs (and dirt bikes) where the rear brake plays a small, but not zero, part in threshold braking.
    A finish is a win! Moderation is the key! More wine!
    And never lend a faggot your hat

    Proud Member of Team Punisher and The Texas Mile 200 MPH club
    Motorcycles are not just fun toys. They are a catalyst for the enjoyment of life. - NaimChase
    When you ride a bike that tries to crawl out from underneath you at 150MPH with a slight twist you know you're on the right path. - TRexRacing

  7. #52
    apriliaforum expert
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    California
    Posts
    605
    Quote Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
    Doesnt make any sense because your "facts" are wrong. The rear wheel has almost zero traction at maximum braking on a sportbike. Ever see the rear of the bike in the air or skimming the road? Learn to use the front brake, your life may depend on it.
    No one is talking about maximum braking here and anyone who uses maximum braking all the time, outside of a track has very questionable skills. I think you're using extremes to make a point whereas I was referring to what most riders do in everyday situations. Trail braking ( using the front brake, properly moderated) isn't about getting out of major problems using maximum anything, it's to allow the rider to manage their progress in the turn and use slight transitions to smooth up their turns or compensate for slight miscalculations.

    Sport bikes, not everyone rides one.

    Anyone who rides two up can appreciate the benefits of knowing how and when to use a rear brake, not everyone does the screwing frog thing while riding two up. The more weight the bike carries the effective the rear brake becomes. Some of us actually have panniers, bags and do carry quite a bit of weight to the rear of the rider. That translates into opportunities to use the rear brake to great effectiveness.

    Learning how to use the rear brake effectively has nothing to do with learning how to use the front brake, you make it sound like one can't be done without also doing the other. We're not all sitting on race tracks counting seconds for laps nor do we all burn up corners or drag light to light, a few of us actually enjoy motorcycling in different ways.

    All the anecdotes about rear braking failures, search out the ones where the front brake ended up with the front end sliding out or the high side. I'd turn and run away from any "instructor" who doesn't know how to use both front and rear, together or by themselves correctly. The key is the use brakes effectively, not maximum all the time. In many situations, the rear brake is a very valuable part of maintaining control and riding well.
    Last edited by CapoEVT; 07-20-2019 at 12:32 PM.
    ETV stands for Extra-Terrestrial Vehicle. The only thing better than having one is having two.

  8. #53
    apriliaforum prov-nov sdiver68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by CapoEVT View Post
    No one is talking about maximum braking here and anyone who uses maximum braking all the time, outside of a track has very questionable skills. I think you're using extremes to make a point whereas I was referring to what most riders do in everyday situations.
    The OP asked about scubbing off speed when he gets in too hot, and referenced 2 sport bikes. Why would I give cruiser advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CapoEVT View Post
    Trail braking ( using the front brake, properly moderated) isn't about getting out of major problems using maximum anything, it's to allow the rider to manage their progress in the turn and use slight transitions to smooth up their turns or compensate for slight miscalculations.
    Not what was asked. At the low speeds and slight correction situations you are referring to, just lean (countersteer) a bit more...

    Quote Originally Posted by CapoEVT View Post
    Sport bikes, not everyone rides one.
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by CapoEVT View Post
    Anyone who rides two up can appreciate the benefits of knowing how and when to use a rear brake, not everyone does the screwing frog thing while riding two up. The more weight the bike carries the effective the rear brake becomes. Some of us actually have panniers, bags and do carry quite a bit of weight to the rear of the rider. That translates into opportunities to use the rear brake to great effectiveness.
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by CapoEVT View Post
    Learning how to use the rear brake effectively has nothing to do with learning how to use the front brake, you make it sound like one can't be done without also doing the other. We're not all sitting on race tracks counting seconds for laps nor do we all burn up corners or drag light to light, a few of us actually enjoy motorcycling in different ways.
    Actually it does. Overuse of rear brake is a killer. People rely on rear brake and never master the front. IMHO, it's much better to teach people to stay off the rear brake and master the front brake, later add rear brake skills. Why? Situational awareness and the concept of panic overload. Again, advice geared towards Sportbikes. Don't most bigger bikes have ABS and linked braking systems these days?


    Quote Originally Posted by CapoEVT View Post
    All the anecdotes about rear braking failures, search out the ones where the front brake ended up with the front end sliding out or the high side. I'd turn and run away from any "instructor" who doesn't know how to use both front and rear, together or by themselves correctly. The key is the use brakes effectively, not maximum all the time. In many situations, the rear brake is a very valuable part of maintaining control and riding well.
    Yes, there is a time, place and type of riding for the rear brake, we can agree on that. I might add that over the years I've had this discussion with MSF instructors with a performance riding background whom usually agree. However, MSF allows their instructors zero leeway on techniques...instructors MUST teach straight from their book or be disqualified from teaching.

    Cheers
    Last edited by sdiver68; 07-20-2019 at 01:20 PM.

  9. #54
    apriliaforum expert LUCKY DAVE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Encinitas, ca
    Posts
    5,575
    With proper use of the front brakes I can carry the rear into corners on my R1200RT, panniers and top box loaded for a long tour.
    It's all about the front brake! Learn to use the front alone so that in a panic stop you concentrate on the proper use of it instead of using the rear. For all but the best riders, (twenty years of road racing type riders) spreading your concentration between the front and rear brakes increases your stopping distance vs getting the absolute most out of the fronts.
    When my friends and I began club road racing we all removed the rear brake pedals from our street bikes to hammer home exclusive use of the all important front. Only later did we install the rear controls and start splitting our attention between the two.
    I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about, but I do have 14 class championships to my name.
    A finish is a win! Moderation is the key! More wine!
    And never lend a faggot your hat

    Proud Member of Team Punisher and The Texas Mile 200 MPH club
    Motorcycles are not just fun toys. They are a catalyst for the enjoyment of life. - NaimChase
    When you ride a bike that tries to crawl out from underneath you at 150MPH with a slight twist you know you're on the right path. - TRexRacing

  10. #55
    apriliaforum expert yamaholic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Memphis
    Posts
    683
    I’m pretty sure there is only one guy that favors the rear here.

    If you are new to riding and reading this: Please, please DO NOT favor the rear. The front brake is your best friend. It should be used for the large majority of your braking. These bikes are NOT from the 1980s. The only way you will lock the front is an emergency situation (if you have ABS you won’t lock it EVER). Use the front first and then learn the finesse required to modulate the rear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed / AF1 Racing View Post
    The greatest bikes ever made that nobody knows about....

  11. #56
    apriliaforum expert
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    California
    Posts
    605
    Who said anything about favoring the rear brake? There are situations where the rear brake is beneficial and times when it is not. A well trained rider knows how to discern that and uses all the tools available to get the best result.

    If using the rear brake means not using the front to you then there is a big misunderstanding of what is being said. That is all.
    Last edited by CapoEVT; 07-21-2019 at 12:02 AM.

  12. #57
    apriliaforum expert Kennibear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Washington State USA
    Posts
    522
    Clearly this subject has prejudice. Nobody is minimizing the effectiveness of the front brake. That is not the point. But if you are taught to "remove the rear brake peddle" and rely solely on the front brake then you cut your abilities and options far short of what you bike is capable of.
    If you use your rear for typical and NOT DRAMATIC stopping situations you will learn the feel and capabilities of the rear brake. You will learn what the rear brake can and cannot do. For the "front brake all the time and every time" crowd, you are leaving 20% of your performance on the table. For those of us not on bullet bikes the rear brake is a larger component of the stopping equation.
    To use the rear brake at 100% of what it can do for you, you have to learn where that 100% exists. Not using it leaves you ignorant. The premise of this thread is trail braking into a corner you are entering too hot. Implied 100% braking to scrub the speed before tip in to the turn. Unless you are doing a stoppey that will involve the rear brake to scrub the excess speed as much as possible. For those of you who DON'T learn the finess of the rear brake, you will not know that your rear brake can be applied after the tip in through the apex and slightly there after to scrub off speed and save a hot corner that would otherwise end up with a personal experience with the Mother Gia. To assume I do not use the front brake is ludicrous. Of course I do! But if the rear brake can provide the stopping power I need for daily commuting that is all I use. Consequently my right foot is smarter than your right foot. And in the monsoons I commute in the front brake will high side you in a heartbeat. Drop some water on the road and that front brake will kill you. But as an old guy I know how to balance the front and rear brakes to match the conditions of the road.
    We didn't have ABS in 1971 when I slid my Honda CL350 into the driver's side front door of a white VW station wagon stalled in my lane in the fog on the frontage road @ Hamilton AFB. Live and learn and live longer.....

    KB

    Sent from my E6833 using Tapatalk

  13. #58
    apriliaforum expert bloodnutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    3,355
    This subject has nothing to do with prejudice.
    It's about physics, as the road riding vid that plocky posted clearly shows.
    Do not go gentle into that good night,

    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

  14. #59
    apriliaforum expert plocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    4,570
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnutt View Post
    This subject has nothing to do with prejudice.
    It's about physics, as the road riding vid that plocky posted clearly shows.
    Yes, I'll bet you already knew that before you watched the vid, so it was straight forward & understood by you & many others.
    Problem is some people are a little head in the sand about their beliefs & either didn't watch the video or disagreed with it because they "know better".

    You can lead a person to knowledge; but you can't make them think.
    2015(16) RSV4 RR Ascari Black 201HP

  15. #60
    apriliaforum expert FZ1JOE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Long Island NY
    Posts
    752
    Quote Originally Posted by CapoEVT View Post
    Who said anything about favoring the rear brake? There are situations where the rear brake is beneficial and times when it is not. A well trained rider knows how to discern that and uses all the tools available to get the best result.

    If using the rear brake means not using the front to you then there is a big misunderstanding of what is being said. That is all.
    The argument I had with this young rider was he used the rear and really believed it was the right way when going in to a curve, not panic braking just scrubing speed off . Do you agree with him , because I don't. His thought was to settle the rear of the bike , I tried to explain to him if you "settle" it too much he was going to lowside. I never want the weight of the bike on the rear tire during a curve unless I'm in the dirt. So if you use the brakes ina curve which one do you use first , front or rear ?
    Last edited by FZ1JOE; 07-21-2019 at 06:50 AM.

Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Need some advice w/ trail braking
    By PSolk in forum Aprilia Owner Rides, Trackdays, Meetings, and Events
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-09-2012, 05:06 PM
  2. Strada / Trail Brake pads ?
    By Cupid Stunt in forum 2006+ Pegaso Trail / Strada / Factory
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-30-2008, 05:29 PM
  3. trail braking
    By kenny d in forum RSVR and RSVR Factory (2004-2009)
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 04-03-2008, 10:19 AM
  4. Trail Braking
    By derbybrit1 in forum Aprilia Privateer / Club Racing
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-31-2005, 02:51 PM
  5. Trail Braking
    By jlpred in forum SL1000 Falco Forum (all years)
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 04-02-2004, 08:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •