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Thread: Trail Braking

  1. #91
    apriliaforum expert Kennibear's Avatar
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    IndelibleInk:
    Nobody here has advocated rear only braking, nobody!
    But those of us who practice tight inertia control, that is not setting ourselves up for even moderate braking requirements, practice with our rear brake enough to know its strengths and weaknesses.
    This original post had proponents suggesting rear brakes are useless. That using the front brake only all the time was sound practice. Those of us who use our rear brakes regularly know that is crap. To know your bike's strengths you have to practice with them. Using the rear brake may only add 3% to the effectiveness of the braking but CapoETV and I have that 3% at our disposal and you don't if you cannot employ your rear brake effectively.
    It just doesn't make sense to leave 3% on the table.

    KB

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  2. #92
    apriliaforum expert plocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kennibear View Post
    Nobody here has advocated rear only braking, nobody!
    Ummm?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kennibear View Post
    ..........
    I brake 90% of the time with the rear brake only as it leaves the front tire loaded slightly and 100% of the front tire's traction to manuvor out of a sudden dangerous situation. The old bikes had drum brakes all around and locking them up happens. A skidding rear tire is a problem, a skidding front tire is an accident.

    KB
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  3. #93
    apriliaforum Junkie Kermit's Avatar
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    "Originally Posted by Kennibear
    ..........
    I brake 90% of the time with the rear brake only "

    Idle curiosity here: I'm a great believer, like you, in anticipation, throttle sense etc. But, I use my front brake most of the time (along with my back brake most of the time as well, albeit for slightly different applications). How often do you practice emergency stops? How often do you have the front brake covered to give you a quicker front brake application in unexpected and unanticipated situations? If the answer to both questions is "rarely" then I suggest you are leaving yourself open to a world of pain.
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  4. #94
    apriliaforum expert jrflanne's Avatar
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    Used to ride a Harley. I cannot begin to guess how many times Harley guys said "I just use the rear brake. If I am going to hit something, I'll just lay it down." Yeah, sliding metal and flesh jamming under a car sounds fun.
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  5. #95
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    Really guys, is 90% now 100% and does that also mean the only way every time? Did you read his explanation or just run with a few words to prove some point he wasn't trying to make?

    You know, some of us have been riding for 4-5 decades and while we aren't chalking up trophies on tracks we've managed to win on the most treacherous places on the planet, the streets where not everyone has some unwritten decorum and going in the same direction on nice smooth asphalt. I've had now close to 50 different bikes over nearly as many years of riding without falling, crashing, colliding or walking away and letting the bike tip over or having it slide out from under me. I use mostly the rear brake, cover the front and for anything but scrubbing off speed use both brakes, but I guess it's been pure luck eh? Maybe before discounting what some are saying compare notes to how many times you've fallen? Falling, crashing and colliding are not the symbol of expertise or good experience.

    As an aside, you know what's kinda funny? The "there are two kinds of riders, those who have fallen and those who will". That is usually part of the advice for new riders. Ever notice that when learning to drive a car no one says there are two kinds of drivers, those who've crashed and those who will? Only in motorcycling do we tell everyone that they'll fall yet turn around and caution against target fixation because you go where you look. Considering the latter related to the former, say you'll fall, believe it and you will.

  6. #96
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    I'm not here to criticise individuals. We can compare scores on the other side if need be.


    To put my perspective plainly, I see no difference between a rider who rides at max chat everywhere and relies on their skills to get them out of sticky situations, and the rider who rides entirely defensively but never develops skills to deal with the inevitable situations that occur outside of anyone's control (control is always an illusion, chaos fans; at least, it's only ever approximate at best). Both of those riders are missing half the picture. And since attitude and skill combined are more than the sum of their parts, in terms of survival, they're really missing much more than that even. If that doesn't apply to you, dear reader, good. I expect new riders in particular might need to think about this.


    To suggest crashing doesn't constitute experience just seems a little naive at best. You don't truly know where the limit is until you've gone too far. Not that I'd advocate doing it on the road at any time. It's also potentially expensive in any situation, although I've found off-road to be very forgiving in this respect (and it can even be fun).
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  7. #97
    apriliaforum expert Kennibear's Avatar
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    I peal off the I-5 North bound at Lakeview Drive every morning. Sharp left hand turn in at most one hundred yards from the freeway proper. Average traffic speed there just after the Mercer Avenue left side jump off is about 70 mph. I use my front brakes. Hard.
    But again for those of you with no perspective: If you manage your speed and inertia you can do just fine with rear brake only. Once I come off the throttle I am covering both brakes, even when coasting. Although I drive to beat the traffic I try my best to do easy only braking. Try. But my front brake gets used everyday. But, again, if you live on your front brake you are incompitant on your rear. I use my front brake every day. Do you use your rear brake at all? How would you know what it can and cannot do? Practice with your rear. It may surprise you. Just like the half asleep cager next to you....

    KB

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  8. #98
    apriliaforum expert yzr750's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kennibear View Post
    I peal off the I-5 North bound at Lakeview Drive every morning. Sharp left hand turn in at most one hundred yards from the freeway proper. Average traffic speed there just after the Mercer Avenue left side jump off is about 70 mph. I use my front brakes. Hard.
    But again for those of you with no perspective: If you manage your speed and inertia you can do just fine with rear brake only. Once I come off the throttle I am covering both brakes, even when coasting. Although I drive to beat the traffic I try my best to do easy only braking. Try. But my front brake gets used everyday. But, again, if you live on your front brake you are incompitant on your rear. I use my front brake every day. Do you use your rear brake at all? How would you know what it can and cannot do? Practice with your rear. It may surprise you. Just like the half asleep cager next to you....

    KB

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    A lot of people on here ride V2 tuono's and mille's, you can't trust the rear brake on those for anything, they're not even very effective for wheelie control. A lot of sport bikes I've owned have had extremely weak rear brakes, useful only for small control inputs, not for retardation.
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  9. #99
    apriliaforum Junkie Kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yzr750 View Post
    A lot of people on here ride V2 tuono's and mille's, you can't trust the rear brake on those for anything, they're not even very effective for wheelie control.
    Well, get them fixed. The standard procedure is relatively easy to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by yzr750 View Post
    A lot of sport bikes I've owned have had extremely weak rear brakes, useful only for small control inputs, not for retardation.
    Then these bikes are defective. Different pads can often help.

    Perhaps this is a deliberate design choice. Catering for people of lower skill levels unable to modulate a rear brake correctly. Personally I like a sports bike with a rear brake I can use for retardation as well as small control inputs. Both are very handy. I'm fairly sure that MotoGP bikes (the ultimate sports bike?) have effective rear brakes.
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  10. #100
    apriliaforum expert SoulDaddy's Avatar
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    I probably owe my life to a rear brake on a GPz 550 back in the 80s. It allowed me to back it in as I approached a flat bed trailer being towed by a semi tractor coming at me in a turn I was way too hot to make otherwise. When the front end came around in a safe direction I gassed that little fucker and somehow escaped with my head still attached. Hard to know who was more surprised, the truck driver or me as I had never done that move in my life before. Just thought I'd share.

    Same road I crashed on a couple months ago thanks to a left-turning lady, too, now that I think about it. Hmmm ...

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  11. #101
    apriliaforum expert norcolmille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antarius View Post
    I trail brake into every single corner, every single time. The amount of brake pressure that I *start* with obviously varies, depending on my speed and the corner, but I am still trail braking into every single corner. I use mainly front, but also rear in some cases... usually when the corner is just after a small rise in the roadway and I want to "settle" the bike down a little bit faster. I never used to trail brake on the street, until I started racing - and learned what it does and how to do it safely and properly. Loads the tire, gives additional grip and helps the bike turn in. Yes, you need to be careful with it, yes you need to reduce brake pressure as lean angle increases, but if you do that you end up with being able to be super smooth and late into corners while still remaining well within your limits (especially on the street).

    I do it on every single bike I've ever owned (since racing), including my big ol' R1200GS. There is genuinely no other way to ride. Load the tire before you work the tire. Every, single, time.
    agree - on the street I practice trail braking at every stop every stop light for muscle memory

    and like others I do not forget the rear brake ( I made many rear brakes work on the Gen2's )
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  12. #102
    apriliaforum expert DaveNZ's Avatar
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    A too powerful rear brake is dangerous, a test i use is it should only just be able to lock the rear tire on gravel. I remember Arron Slight saying he used his rear brake when exiting corners, it helped keep the front wheel down.
    Last edited by DaveNZ; 08-14-2019 at 03:14 AM.
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  13. #103
    apriliaforum expert plocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNZ View Post
    A too powerful rear brake is dangerous, a test i use is it should only just be able to lock the rear tire on gravel. I remember Arron Slight saying he used his rear brake when exiting corners, it helped keep the front wheel down.
    This is it Dave.
    But maybe we're just old school?
    I don't think so, I still ride the twisty roads & do track days & most people think I'm still fast,& safe. For an old bloke anyway.

    I'm old enough to have been in the same race with Aaron Slight, he came 1st, I came 10th just behind Wayne Clarke (one of my mentors).

    Those were the days.
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  14. #104
    apriliaforum expert DaveNZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plocky View Post
    This is it Dave.
    But maybe we're just old school?
    I don't think so, I still ride the twisty roads & do track days & most people think I'm still fast,& safe. For an old bloke anyway.

    I'm old enough to have been in the same race with Aaron Slight, he came 1st, I came 10th just behind Wayne Clarke (one of my mentors).

    Those were the days.
    Luckily i got invited to a Speed Week track day at Hampdowns, and there were many of NZs race riders there. Arron Doubled Greg Murphy around the track showing him lines to ride, well his rear brake must not have been working as he was pulling wheelies everywhere with Murph on the back. Most fun day I've ever had at the track, was on my 1290R. Click image for larger version. 

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    "Be yourself, because everybody else is taken "..............................In the shed...... Multistrada 1200, Termi full system with matching ECU, and ohlins SCU. KTM 1290 GT. Torque monster. Remus link and muffler, KTM 790 fun machine.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNZ View Post
    Luckily i got invited to a Speed Week track day at Hampdowns, and there were many of NZs race riders there. Arron Doubled Greg Murphy around the track showing him lines to ride, well his rear brake must not have been working as he was pulling wheelies everywhere with Murph on the back. Most fun day I've ever had at the track, was on my 1290R. Click image for larger version. 

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    I can honestly say I don't have the guts to ride on the back with a pro rider.....

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