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Thread: Do MotoGP greats need to prove themselves on different bikes?

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    Do MotoGP greats need to prove themselves on different bikes?

    Do MotoGP greats need to prove themselves on different bikes?

    Discuss......
    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...mpression=true

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    apriliaforum expert ape66's Avatar
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    Good read Vic. Thanks for that . Says a lot. Also good read on stoner as well.

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    I don’t believe so.
    Id rather win 10 championships on 1 bike than 9 on 2.

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    apriliaforum expert meanstrk's Avatar
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    No.

    I see nothing wrong with loyalty for an entire career.
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    apriliaforum expert coolonthecoast's Avatar
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    I'd have been quite happy winning one championship on any bike!
    40 odd powered two wheelers over 40 odd years. Currently in the garage are a 2016 Tuono V4 1100RR and a '79 Honda CB550F

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    At the end of the day I think the debate about which bike is best is kind of a waste of time.
    If Marquez is this dominant on a bike that isn’t ‘the best’ then he is even better than he looks which there isn’t even a word for.
    These bikes are all so close and have their stronger and weaker points.
    Even the Yamaha which apparently is weak right now.It may well be but if it’s true that Quartararos bike is down on revs and he’s looking top drawer in his rookie year.
    So maybe Mav and Vale just are in a shit place mentally.

    I believe Marquez could win on any factory bike and even possibly on satellite machinery.
    The rider can make the difference.
    Last edited by murphc13; 06-11-2019 at 12:25 PM.

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    apriliaforum Member GuzziV8's Avatar
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    Interesting article but I disagree with Oxleys assertion that, "It can be precisely dated to the winter of 2003/2004, when Valentino Rossi defected from Honda to Yamaha." It seems more likely that it started with Giacomo Agostini's win on the 350 Yamaha in 1974, winning back to back 350 titles with different makes. In 1975 he won the 500 title, the first for a two stroke. Prior to that it was felt that Agostini had won some soft titles on the MV, sometimes winning the championship with double the points of the next placed rider. Winning on a different bike (Yamaha), and a two stroke at that, cemented his status and made him an even greater champion.
    Last edited by GuzziV8; 06-11-2019 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuzziV8 View Post
    Interesting article but I disagree with Oxleys assertion that, "It can be precisely dated to the winter of 2003/2004, when Valentino Rossi defected from Honda to Yamaha." It seems more likely that it started with Giacomo Agostini's win on the 350 Yamaha in 1974, winning back to back 350 titles with different makes. In 1975 he won the 500 title, the first for a two stroke. Prior to that it was felt that Agostini had won some soft titles on the MV, sometimes winning the championship with double the points of the next placed rider. Winning on a different bike (Yamaha), and a two stroke at that, cemented his status and made him an even greater champion.
    I agree with you. It did not start with Rossi, nor did it start 2003 / 2004. And it has been done by a few racers, where they increased their place in the annuls of motorcycle racing by switching brands and winning on a different brand. It is even more meaningful when the bike they switch too is not already a winning bike. It is not required to be considered one of the greats, but if a rider is capable of getting off a bike they were dominating on and getting on a bike that is not winning and upping that bike to the status of a winner they have increased their reputation.
    If Marc never does it he won't be alone, but if he does pull that off he would increase his standings among the greats in most peoples eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuzziV8 View Post
    Interesting article but I disagree with Oxleys assertion that, "It can be precisely dated to the winter of 2003/2004, when Valentino Rossi defected from Honda to Yamaha." It seems more likely that it started with Giacomo Agostini's win on the 350 Yamaha in 1974, winning back to back 350 titles with different makes. In 1975 he won the 500 title, the first for a two stroke. Prior to that it was felt that Agostini had won some soft titles on the MV, sometimes winning the championship with double the points of the next placed rider. Winning on a different bike (Yamaha), and a two stroke at that, cemented his status and made him an even greater champion.
    "Neither Duke, Ago, Lawson nor Stoner changed brands primarily to cement their credibility."

    I think Oxley is referencing the fact that Rossi jumped ship because he felt Honda were disrespecting his talent. Duke, Aggo, and co jumped ship because they felt that the bike they were riding wasn't competitive.

    Here is the Honda press release, clearly Rossi wasn't going to stay. He had a 50% win ratio in those days, it was nowhere near as competitive as Motogp is now. He probably would have won the title if he'd gone to Ducati but we will never know.

    HRC sporting manager Carlo Fiorani admitted that Honda had tried everything to keep Rossi, but that ultimately they were unable to offer the new challenge he seeks.

    "Everyone in this room knows; indeed anyone with even the slightest interest in motorcycle racing around the world will know that we at Honda have been in contract negotiations with Valentino Rossi's management for much of this season," stated Fiorani.

    "We at Honda have done everything in our power to secure Valentino's services for next year. In the end we understand that it is not about money, sponsor obligations or any of the standard issues that are negotiated over in more general contract discussions. The area we have had difficulty in, is one of providing Valentino with a new challenge and it is an area we at Honda totally understand. This is totally a Valentino choice.
    Last edited by V4Victory; 06-11-2019 at 09:51 AM.

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    apriliaforum expert riot's Avatar
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    I do not think there is a solid answer to this debate. I do like to remind the viewers though, that you reaelly really wnat to be on a Honda or a Yamaha if you want to win a championship.

    In the last 35 years (since 1983, basically when Honda returned to GP with a competitive 2T) 32 of the 35 or about 91% of championships have been won on one of these two bikes. Honda has a slight nod over Yamaha with 19 to Yamaha's 17.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orld_Champions

    For any given year, a championship is a combination of the team/bike, and luck. But a consistent set of titles over the years, with multiple riders onboard, for a given team/factory can only be the result of superior knowledge and commitment.

    Do I think Rossi is right, that Honda did not respect is talent and had something to prove when he moved to Yamaha - yep. At the time, people (Max Biaggi) said the Yam was crap.

    Do I think Marquez could win on a Yamaha? Pretty much no doubt. As much as I like Rossi's records, I think t would be quite dramatic to see what Marquez could do on another machine - especially before he gets to willing to rest on his laurels. If he switched and won Suzuki or even a Ducati, I think I would be willing to grant him the new GOAT title.

    Is Stoner's Ducati title a remarkable one? Stoner is still a top talent if ever there was one. That bike was a pile for sure, but the Bridgestone Tires, and Stoner's sheer will took it.

    The Ducati factory has come a long way since Audi, and I would love to see Dovi take a title. I think he will need to be willing to really push is luck to ever do it though, as long as the Honda Marquez package stays in tact (without any major rules changes) I don't see the Duc team getting there.

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    apriliaforum expert Powerful Pierre's Avatar
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    Depends on the rider and their individual circumstances at the time, Mick Doohan was certainly happy winning all of his championships on the same bike and he'll never give 2 f*cks what anybody thinks.

    Personally I like to see a rider take on a new challenge, for whatever reason........it can be a poison chalice as it was in Rossi's move to Ducati, or it can be an enhancement to their status, as it was when the same guy moved from Honda to Yamaha.

    To see Marquez winning multiple championships on the same bike in the same team is not something I'd look forward to, I'm hoping that he'll reach a point where he does fancy a new challenge and jump ship

    Jorge may be struggling and getting a lot of stick for it, but at least he has the balls, and the interest, to take on something outside of his comfort zone.....circumstances may have forced his hand but he could just as easily have joined Casey as an early retiree, he'll certainly never be hard up, instead he accepted a new challenge and I admire his dogged determination to make it work.
    Last edited by Powerful Pierre; 06-11-2019 at 10:35 AM.

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    apriliaforum expert Triple J's Avatar
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    Great article, thanks (as is the one on Stoner he recently wrote)

    His 2003/2004 VR reference isn't saying it's the only time a great rider has switched brands and won, it's referencing the incident where the notion that it is necessary to be considered the GOAT (or even just a great?) started. Due to VR's popularity he is the standard that all riders are now measured against, rightly so or not.
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    apriliaforum expert ape66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple J View Post
    Great article, thanks (as is the one on Stoner he recently wrote)

    His 2003/2004 VR reference isn't saying it's the only time a great rider has switched brands and won, it's referencing the incident where the notion that it is necessary to be considered the GOAT (or even just a great?) started. Due to VR's popularity he is the standard that all riders are now measured against, rightly so or not.
    Have to agree with you there TJ. I think as a racing fan with some favourite riders, I myself couldn’t give a f~!k about billy goat status. I think that is mythical crap started by the 2003/2004 seasons mat oxleys article sums up the myth pretty good.

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    Simon Crafer won only one Moto GP race, he's a legend.............................And a great commentator/interviewer...............i'll get my goat, ah coat.
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    apriliaforum expert LEDAero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murphc13 View Post
    I don’t believe so.
    Id rather win 1 championship on 10 bikes than 0 on 2.
    My feelings exactly
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