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Thread: Coil input !

  1. #1
    apriliaforum expert Scary's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Coil input !

    This is input for the expert tuners & Eprom/chip builders to work with & take further(ED/Jon & crew, Ken, Factory Pro, ChuckB, Amauri, Clarkie/MIA, Gabro, etc. etc.). Because it's not just a fit & ride addition that just anyone can do yet with the chips/eprom that have been designed for the standard coils.
    There's a lot of projects going on that I didn't realise were happening, & I think I'm slowing progress on the advancement of changing coils as a big advantage on our models, mainly because I'm so busy with other projects. Hence me pulling my finger out & posting this up for others to take further at the shops etc.

    This will involve '03 Milles & earlier, '05 Tuonos & earlier & possibly all Falcos too.

    First a special thanks to Mookiedog who has been with me on this helping me with input on the teco stuff right from the start 2+ months ago. Also to OZprilia for jumping in early using his tuning skills & money to start testing on his bikes set-up. & Trexracing for parts offers along with moral support/input from him & Teacherboy. Even though they all have other things going on in their lives they all spent the time/effort to Email back & forward for months to take this further & try & help all owners etc.

    So here it is, I started much like Derbybrit1 has by turning the Tuono into a single plug head set-up but by leaving the second outter spark plug on each head in but not hooked up, & by removing one coil per cylinder & hooking up all the coil wires to the one coil on each using these little fittings to see if we would get error codes coming up. Once I got a possitive result there I started trying my old thoery from 3 years ago about the huge primary resistance of our models being a big problem to spark energy & over stressing the charging system while it was having to charge/prime these coils.
    So I went for the Dyna 3 ohm. Twin plug tower, Mini coils because they are suited for ECU application as a first test to stay in spec(2.8 - 5.2 ohms prim. res.) for our bikes. This meant I went from a huge 17.6 ohms of primary total to 6 ohms prim. total on my bike.

    http://www.dynatekuk.com/sport_bikes...ion_coils.html






    "I'll add pages as I go so I don't lose my 1 finger typing"
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    Last edited by Scary; 03-12-2019 at 06:39 PM. Reason: Updated dyna link

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert Scary's Avatar
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    My first set-up was with a slip-on, DNA filter & that's about it. After a week of trial & error tuning & cheating the TPS I realised I was unable to get a "perfect" tune with these & the Euro C map 2 chip in it. It was much more responsive & smooooother than with the standard coils but there were holes in the map I couldn't cheat around without better equipment & ajustable fuel pressure regulater etc.
    At this point OZprilia stepped up to start testing on his, credit to him because at that point I was far from convinced this was a winner yet.
    So I went back to a standard Tuono muffler & started all over again to see how far we could go with that set-up while he took it further with the slip-on because he already had the skill & the adj. fuel reg. fitted on his.

    Within next too no time I had a very near perfect tune on my set-up(much easier to find than the slip-on was), this after trying a lot of differing spark plug gaps & settling on .70 mm, & had very fine cheated the TPS with a multi-metre to the perfect as able fueling everywhere. Only on the last couple of fine movements of the TPS did I nail it & the bike got so smooth & responsive everywhere that I thought I'd jumped on a 1 4 by mistake. Unbeliveable difference to the standard coil set-up, sortta took the animal/all snatchyness out of the way the bike rides. Very 1 4 ish !

    I've been running that set-up for about 2 months now checking fuel rage & heat sinks in the ECU for possible over heating, also keeping a close eye on all wireing for extra heat.......nothing, no error codes, not a single hick-up anywhere to date.
    The only thing I've noticed is it's easier for me to fload it if I use toooo much fast idle/choke now. As it doesn't need as much, I guess cause the spark is improved.
    I haven't had the slightest sign of a re-set of the starter stalling in the whole time, & right at the beginning I noticed a big jump up in my charging readings at the dash & the multi-metre. But I'll leave that side of it to others to watch for & confirm or not. Mookiedog did do some sums on how much our std. ones were eating but I leave that to him if he wants to post input as he's the expertin that area.

    I'm getting 200 to 220 Kms per tank till the light depending on my riding through it & much improved performance, smoothness of ride everywhere across the map, on normal unleaded here. Now people here will know we get MORE mileage outta a tank full here using Premium unleaded, but I prefer normal for tuning & plug colour readings. So this means I'd get probably up to 240 Kms. per tank outta that. But I haven't had time to test that yet. It was obvious the Euro C chip with these coils likes the extra back pressure caused by the standard rubbish bin muffler with all this too.

    Just my feeling here for the Eprom builders....the spark made it feel, to me anyway, like it had had it's timing advanced. You will probably see what I mean when you start testing yourselves. It's similar to what I found 15 odd years ago with the Harleys but this is to a greater degree because the amount of prim. res. we've dropped off the bike is far greater I guess.

    More later, things to do.

    Will leave it for others to add to as they wish, but please try & leave input to actual experiences or advise please, as I think this/thread may go on for quite a while with testing etc., & real input will make it easier to follow.
    Last edited by Scary; 09-29-2007 at 06:53 PM.

  3. #3
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    I can understand wanting to put hotter coils on the bike. A basic performance enhancement that has been around for a long time. What is it that you hope to gain by eliminating one of the spark plugs? The late style heads had major revisions to the combustion chamber. Just eliminating one plug is not going to make it perform like the new engine. Additionally, eliminating one plug effectively retards your ignition timing since dual plug heads reduce the time required for combustion by starting two flame fronts. I did a lot of work years ago installing dual plugs on air cooled BMW's and we always retarded the timing to compensate for the shorter burn time.

  4. #4
    apriliaforum expert
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    Good to hear from you, I'd been thinking the project took a dump. Glad it all worked out. Time to start playing now.
    Fast red 03 Tuono, dual Renegade exhaust, Renegade style intake, FP Tuono chip, 57mm TB's. SOLD
    1989 Kawasaki ZX 10 with a modded 2003 ZZR1200 motor. 41mm Keihin Flat-slides with the long stacks, stick coils, and a Micron pipe. I forgot the comfy Concours clip-ons.

  5. #5
    apriliaforum expert Scary's Avatar
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    Teacherboy....G'day mate, Email/pics away now.

    KZ...One plug per was not long term, just a test for error codes to see what the ECU thought about "our" theories.

    Gotta go gents...later.

  6. #6
    apriliaforum expert Gabro's Avatar
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    if wanna test a Tuono chip with a nice ignition curve (but not too much) just send me an e-mail. I can make it twin mapped; std can (boiler) and slip-on.

    Those engine likes spark advance. They could have detonation only at around 2.5k-3k rpm.

    Ciao,
    Gab
    Aprilia bikes ECU tuning and reflashes since 2004!
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  7. #7
    apriliaforum expert Scary's Avatar
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    Gabro...Thanks for the offer mate, I'd like to try that soon, but I need to fit my adjustable fuel pressure regulater first as we are finding lower fuel pressure/leaner is what these coils are responding to with the eprom/chips we have already. I won't get a chance to go further myself with this project for a week or two.
    I read your post about the retarded timing at the beginning on the Euro C Map 1, & as better spark usually likes to be retarded a little I tried Map 1.
    It was really hard to get the engine started, it didn't want to start at all, when I finally got it going it was slow to respond up to about 2500 Rpm - 3000 Rpm, then at that point I could feel the advance come in(a little bit like hitting a power band) & the engine cleaned up/responded well from there on. Over all not a good result on map 1 with the standard muffler.
    Went back to the Map 2 as it feels like the engine really likes the timing curve on that map(probably could be better though). I'd say it's pretty close for these coils but I intend to test even lower primary resistance coils as soon as I have time, to see how far down we can go to what the '04 & newer bikes run. I'll go down until I melt something in the ECU I guess
    I also think we can use 4 X single tower(single spark plug lead)1.5 ohm prim. res. coils to do the same job as these ones I'm running now. That way still keeping 3 ohms of prim. resist. per cylinder. But I haven't actually done/tried it yet so can't say for sure it will work.

    I'll be happy to buy one of your eproms/chips as soon as I'm ready to try it mate but don't have dyno access here now. I will Email you then mate.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Scary; 10-01-2007 at 03:27 PM.

  8. #8
    apriliaforum expert Scary's Avatar
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    Up Date !

    Due to being able to now watch my fuel pressure readings while riding....
    http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...ighlight=Bling
    I noticed a spiking/fluctuation/erratic fuel pressure at differing on & off throttle positions while in motion, some other owners have seen similar in the resent past too(Exdukenut I think in the Falco forum was one).
    I tried the trick that I think Ken Zeller first used on his adj. reg. kit he used to supply.
    I connected it in as per the pic below & blocked/plugged the TB std. outlet. Thus picking up both TBs varitions in vac. instead of just the rear one.
    It smoothed it out almost completely & gave a much more stable/constant fuel pressure reading right across the throttle range on my bike.
    I beleive this will also be an advantage to "any" of the standard &/or modified bikes running the standard regulator now. It will only help your fueling in my opinion.

    The joiner in the pic at present has a reduced internal hole size(all I had here at the time) but I'll try a few differing sizes & let u know the effects if any later.
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    Last edited by Scary; 10-15-2007 at 08:26 PM.

  9. #9
    apriliaforum expert Scary's Avatar
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    The final coil mount up kit is on & working now too, the coils are a bit fatter than our standard ones which stopped us fitting the Tuono covers over them until now. After about 4 sets of trial & error plates & spacers/etc., at differing places I have finally got a working set on the bike & all's been good for the last couple of rides.

    Have also found out the holes on the inside of the frame spar near the engine, where I would like to mount the adj. fuel press. reg. are two sizes that take 4mm & 5mm Rivnuts, I ordered 4 & 6mm., & when they got here found out I miss measured one... so the mounting of the reg. will have to wait until the 5mm Rivnuts arrive......Buggar !!!

    Hey by the way ! check out Mookiedogs new web design etc.....

    http://www.randomexploits.com/

    Looks like we're all busy......

    later.
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  10. #10
    apriliaforum expert
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    Looking good so far. Looks factory to me.
    Fast red 03 Tuono, dual Renegade exhaust, Renegade style intake, FP Tuono chip, 57mm TB's. SOLD
    1989 Kawasaki ZX 10 with a modded 2003 ZZR1200 motor. 41mm Keihin Flat-slides with the long stacks, stick coils, and a Micron pipe. I forgot the comfy Concours clip-ons.

  11. #11
    apriliaforum expert Scary's Avatar
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    Getting there mate, bit too slowly for my liking but one thing at a time 'A'.
    42psi fuel press. settled on & confirmed by OZprilia for the Ti Evo eprom/chip & his set-up mate.

    So I'm guessing working in the 42 to 43 psi range for the available eproms/chips made for the standard coils & reg. will be a good starting point for those testing.

  12. #12
    apriliaforum expert
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    You and the rest of the guys are doing a great job. Can't wait to see the end result.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scary View Post
    Getting there mate, bit too slowly for my liking but one thing at a time 'A'.
    42psi fuel press. settled on & confirmed by OZprilia for the Ti Evo eprom/chip & his set-up mate.

    So I'm guessing working in the 42 to 43 psi range for the available eproms/chips made for the standard coils & reg. will be a good starting point for those testing.
    Fast red 03 Tuono, dual Renegade exhaust, Renegade style intake, FP Tuono chip, 57mm TB's. SOLD
    1989 Kawasaki ZX 10 with a modded 2003 ZZR1200 motor. 41mm Keihin Flat-slides with the long stacks, stick coils, and a Micron pipe. I forgot the comfy Concours clip-ons.

  13. #13
    apriliaforum expert
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    Sorry it's taken so long to chip in Scary, been away working.
    The mounting plates you made for mounting the coils are a perfect fit.
    Workmanship, exemplary.
    Reiterating what you have said Scary, 42psi seems to be where it's at.
    Tried higher and lower for no gains and sometimes even higher fuel usage.
    After much testing and emailing, I'm with you Scary I believe you have to cheat the TPS by using the multi meter to make the very small incremental adjustments needed to get the engines true performance.
    Fuel pressure only puts you in the ball park, adjusting the TPS gives you the correct fuel/air ratio, only problem is -1,0,1 increment on the dash is too wide a spectrum, hence the multi meter adjustment. It was only when I started making very small adjustments to the TPS that the bike really started to crack.
    So to anybody who is considering this mod, if you have the patience and moderate tunning skills, give it a go.
    You will be rewarded with a much more responsive Tuono.
    Will be interested Scary to see how the chip from Gabro preforms on our Aussie bikes.

  14. #14
    apriliaforum expert Chris_Mag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZprilia View Post
    Fuel pressure only puts you in the ball park, adjusting the TPS gives you the correct fuel/air ratio, only problem is -1,0,1 increment on the dash is too wide a spectrum, hence the multi meter adjustment. It was only when I started making very small adjustments to the TPS that the bike really started to crack.
    So to anybody who is considering this mod, if you have the patience and moderate tunning skills, give it a go.

    Would you please explain how this is done?
    CURRENT BIKE
    2013 Multistrada S Touring
    2004 Tuono Factory


  15. #15
    apriliaforum expert
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    Scary is the Man who showed me, so I think that when he reads this he will be able to post up some pictures the same as he sent me with an explanation of how we do it.
    Scary is pretty switched on with a vast amount of experience with the Tuono and his help has been invaluable while sorting out mine and doing the R&D on the coils.
    I had the ability but Scary had the know how.
    By the way, I run the Evo adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

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