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Thread: Oil level raising a bit

  1. #1
    apriliaforum prov-nov
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    Oil level raising a bit

    Question for PETE (but anybody who knows the solution can clearly answer): in my Stelvio I'm noticing that the oil level during the 10K km interval between an oil change and the next one, raises a litlle-bit.
    Normally when I put new oil I fill it just over the MIN mark, then I make a check after the first ride to make a precise level with warm engine, and normally put it in the middle between MIN and MAX marks.
    After 6/7K km if I make a check I find the oil level close to MAX, so it's raised a bit. I noticed this behaviour since when the bike was new, so it's not an issue that happened after a while, it has always been the same. At 10K km I change the oil, and normally it's raised another bit.
    As there's no water in the engine, the only other liquid that can go into the oil is petrol, I assume.
    Do you know the reason for this?

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Really there is no way that it could be overfuelling so badly as to wash the bores and pour fuel into the oil. If it was putting that much fuel in it likely wouldn't run when warm and would belch smoke like a coal fired tramp steamer! Not to mention it's piston rings would vanish in a couple of thousand kms!

    Really the only thing that can increase the volume of the fluid in the case is water. The 8V's are grotesquely over cooled and it's hard, even in warm weather, to get the oil above 85*C if you're not riding moderately hard. In cold conditions the oil temp is virtually impossible to get over 70*C. It's due to the cooling circuit not having a thermostat.

    You may well find if you drop the sump that there is a lot of mayonnaise in the bottom below the level of the drain plug but even so I'm at a loss as to how your oil 'Grows'

    You're not running some sort of horrible 'Sensor Fooler' or a PCV/AT or other such nonsense are you?

    Pete

    PS. What year model is it? And is it a flat tappet or roller bike?
    Professional Goat Burster.

  3. #3
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    Would it be that the oil level is initially measured with a cold dip stick but rechecked with a longer hot one?

  4. #4
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    the bike is a 2014, rollerized from factory, and run perfectly, no issues. At the moment it has 66K km. but did the same since new.
    I always check oil level in the same conditions: after a ride (so warm engine) I stop the bike on the centerstand, wait few minutes for the oil to drain down in the sump and do the check.

    Pete what you say makes sense, in fact this thing happens more in winter than in summer: I ride everyday in winter going to work and the engine never warms up enough, and in the weekends I ride up the mountains often with freezing temperatures, and especially during the long downhills the engine gets cold (when I arrive down from a mountain often the head covers are just tiepid).
    I also confirm the presence if the 'mayonnaise': I can see it below the head covers when I remove them to check the valves.
    Said that, I don't think that there could be enough 'condensation' to raise the oil level.

    As told in my previous thread some weeks ago, I've no strange devices connected to the bike: my bike has just been remapped from a Guzzi professional here in Italy with O2 sensors disabled, and runs perfectly, with normal fuel consumption (just a little bit over the standards when going slow). But this strange thing of oil raising up in the sump was noticed since new, when the map was stock.

    What I notice is that when the throttle valves get dirt the fuel consumption increases and I have some black smoke from the exhaust on the first hard acceleration after a low speed ride, meaning that there was unburnt fuel somewhere. Could this situation cause some fuel to go down the pistons and down to the sump?
    Normally the solution is just to clean the throttle bodies and everythings goes ok for another 20k km.

  5. #5
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    If the throttle bodies are grubby and the TPS has been re-set as part of a tune up the air flow won't match the fuel delivery. The issue with it smoking in cold weather on start up would suggest to me that the cold start tables need tweaking though

    The fact the issue is more pronounced in cold weather is telling. I'd drop the sump and have a squizz at what's in there. I'll bet you'll find a centimetre of Mayo in the bottom. I really doubt it's due to fuel contamination as the amount needed to raise the oil level would make the bike run very poorly and would ruin the ring seal leading to vast amounts of oil being pumped out through the breather system and filling the airbox.

    In winter a lot of folks will block off the oil cooler either partially or wholly. In winter where I live, (Yes, it does get cold in parts of Oz!) on the top of the dividing range it can be -5*C when I set off for a ride in the morning. I have an oil temperature gauge and when I get to Queanbeyan, about 25km away, I'll be lucky if the oil is at 50*C! Even blocking the cooler completely in those conditions, unless I really flog it, it's still difficult to get the oil temp above 80*C! That results in a fuquetonne of Mayo in the engine and was one of the contributing factors to the flat tappet fiasco, not the main one but certainly a contributor to the rapidity of failure.

    If you'd like you could email me your map and I could ask Mark to have a look at the temp correction tables. Or you could email him yourself at Griso.org.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  6. #6
    apriliaforum prov-nov
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    That's not exact, I don't have smoke in cold start, I have smoke when accelerating hard after many time driving slow...totally another thing. Cold starts are perfect as well as hot starts.
    And this is the indicator that the throttle bodies are dirty. After cleankng them (and re-set the TPS) the smoke stops.

    Anyhow I'll certainly send you the map, please give me your mail address

  7. #7
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Professional Goat Burster.

  8. #8
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    map sent right now!

  9. #9
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    No worries.
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  10. #10
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    Some times old fuel injectors drip at shutdown until pressure in the fuel system and tank is dissipated diluting the engine oil however you should detect a stale telltale smell from gasoline in the oil when you check the level as it can be very distinct especially if running Ethanol which is hard not to do here in the US.

    Here gasoline in the engine oil was a very big problem with the Aprilia Atlantic 500's in 2003 and 2004 which was made worse since there was a cold thermostat in them that prevented the engine from getting hot enough to cook off the gasoline that got into the crankcase allowing it to build up over time. The fix for those was multipart with a hotter thermostat, new fuel injector, lower pressure venting on the gas tank, insulated bottom on the gas tank and gas tank heat shields to protect it from engine heat. On the Atlantic 500 in the US this was a fatal issue that destroyed the plastic drive gear on the oil pump causing quite a few engines to be destroyed.

  11. #11
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    the oil right now is pretty old (has done 7000km, ELF Moto4 Race 10W-60) and the smell is much different from the smell of the same oil in the can when new, but I'm not able to say if it seems like gasoline. Perhaps seems more like 'burnt' gasoline.
    I live in Italy and I'm running E5 gasoline, which has a totally different smell than Ethanol

  12. #12
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Given your map is absurdly rich ring seal is almost certainly compromised so you'll be getting a lot more oil contamination from blow-by which would contribute to the smelly oil. It shouldn't cause the oil to 'Grow' though, it's more likely to simply over-tax the breather system and fill your airbox with oil.
    Professional Goat Burster.

  13. #13
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    but if my map were so rich shouldn't I have very bad consumption? The consumption is regular, 6,25lt./100km medium measured at the pump in normal use...not so bad to think that there's a problem in the map.
    Airbox is normally clean, no oil other than some greasiness. Spark plugs have the normal 'brown' color, with rich mixture they would be more black.
    Really no symptoms of a rich mixture.

    But let me understand: did you check the map and it si rich?
    Last edited by alfacorse; 02-05-2019 at 06:08 PM.

  14. #14
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Yes, the map is far too rich. Given the fact that you have some odd aftermarket air filter and have butchered your exhaust pipe for some reason I really don't see how we can help you. Sorry.
    Professional Goat Burster.

  15. #15
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    Hopefully its not all carbon particulate that's in the oil from it running rich however in post #4 on this thread it appears it was confirmed that a mayonnaise type foam from water in the oil was observed -"I also confirm the presence if the 'mayonnaise': I can see it below the head covers when I remove them to check the valves." So running rich and a water in the oil situation has existed for a while which over time is going to take its toll.

    Odd aftermarket air filter and butchered exhaust? If the crankcase ventilation and exhausts ability to purge gases has been compromised yes it would be hard to pinpoint a culprit and could magnify issues from a bike known to have issues warming up that is mostly ridden on short runs in cold weather where it never reaches full operating temperatures. The engine does need to get warm enough to evaporate startup fuel vapors and condensate. Also what impact do the mods have on the intake air temp sensor in the air box and the two lambda sensors on the exhaust? Fuel map aside if the readings from these are compromised what fuel map would it potentially fault back too?

    These could make it very difficult for Pete to come up with even a partially correct map for it. Its a bit like when they had Jack LaLanne (a fitness and health guru from the 1950's till he died in 2011) prove himself in a fitness stunt by swimming with a rowboat full of witnesses in tow from the Alcatraz prison island to the mainland and handcuffed him just before he jumped in the water. He still did it but it was a whole lot harder then it had to be with most believing it would be impossible. He repeated the feat increasing the level of difficulty even as a senior citizen afterwards which was amazing.
    http://www.newser.com/story/110438/j...ss-stunts.html

    Pete - You up for long swim in cold shark infested waters? ;>

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