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Thread: '10 R Model surging idle and occasional stall at idle

  1. #1
    apriliaforum newb dc10md's Avatar
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    '10 R Model surging idle and occasional stall at idle

    Another newby question here. I did a pretty extensive search and couldn't find a similar issue.

    Just picked up a very nice '10 R model in very good condition. Bike has right at 10K miles on it. I took it on my first ride the other Saturday to the Deland Bikefest and I kept having this idle issue. The bike has no other known defects and no fault indications. Other than the idle the bike ran fine. Here are the details on the issue.

    Oh and........not really a sport bike guy but bought this to help out a family friend in a financial bind. More of a Monster, Supermoto type. WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After this one ride I get the whole Aprilia thing. Wow!!!! I actually bought it and was just going to resell it as I had time and he didn't and needed the funds. Nope. Adding another one to the garage. This thing is cool.

    Anyway, regardless of operating temperature or outside air temp, the idle tends to surge a bit. Sometimes a bunch, at which it then shuts off. Or sometimes just a little and it will run indefinitely. When it is stable it is at 1500 so the RPM is correct. During riding, and you can simulate this sitting still also, if you let the throttle slam closed it will shut off. If you slowwwwwly close the throttle it will idle down and not shut off. On the road, if I had time and was coming to a stop, I would leave it in 2nd gear and pull the RPM down to 1500 with the rear brake and the pull in the clutch and the idle was fine. Yet of course in traffic or picking up the pace you don't have time to play like that. If I come rapidly to a stop and don't drag it down to idle it will shut off if I don't blip the throttle.

    I've got the bike down now to catch up on all the scheduled maintenance. Previous owner wasn't sure what all had been done. As I'll be doing the valve clearance I'll be at the throttle bodies too. As I've had this problem on other EFI bikes I was hoping it was a dirty idle air circuit valve. In reading the service manual the idle is strictly controlled by the throttle plates so no idle air valve.

    Hoping it's still just a cleaning or maybe air leak issue that I can easily resolve.

    Just looking for any previous experience/advice on the matter.

    Thanks,

    Dave S.

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert
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    I would check the cable tension setup from the twist grip to the throttle position sender, some riders adjust additional slack,in the cable.

    then with guzzidiag software, run the throttle learning procedure, it could be the idle position is on the very limit.

    like me, on the limits of knowledge here, but I have ran this process on mine after the ecu upgrade.

    Other than the cable and a donation for the guzzidiag, its low budget test and probable fix.

    My 2c

  3. #3
    apriliaforum expert marcodarq's Avatar
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    you definitely want to check your valve clearances, however adjustment if needed is a very involved process requiring special tools and the correct shims, it a thing that not every DIY type can get done, not impossible but involved. your idling issues are a sometimes related report that ends up in valve adjustment. that being said, check over for the normal vacum leak type things. wires loose, something unplugged, although those types of issues usually will give you the red triangle of death. the other thing is throttle body balance, but here again becuase of the fly by wire system, it is more involved than the old days. check the simple stuff and make sure your valve clearances are in spec, then report.
    m
    marco bjishkian
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  4. #4
    apriliaforum newb dc10md's Avatar
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    Thanks all.

    I did my valves on my KTM 990 SMT and looking at the Aprilia Service Manual it looks like a similar operation. Was hoping Aprilia used the same shims as Rotax as I have the whole shim package on hand. If not I guess I'll buy more if needed. I noticed the call out for special tooling but figured I'd open it up and see the level of involvement. Rotax has similar requirements but there are work arounds. Certainly above all I understand the importance of not screwing up the cam timing.

    Frankly my experience with these rare bikes in my area is that many of the shops have techs with limited experience also since there are so few of these. And while I'm a newby at these, I've done significant engine work in auto racing. Of course not as sophisticated as this motor. So I'd rather give it a go.

    As advised, I'll check the valve clearances and do a good inspection of the throttle bodies and see what I find and report back. I haven't taken the tank off yet but it looks initially like access is better than the KTM. That thing was a bastard to work on.

  5. #5
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    Advise you to do a compression test i had same issues and bike had dropped a cylinder

  6. #6
    apriliaforum expert marcodarq's Avatar
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    If you get in a real pich, I'm only a few hours away. I was advised not to try any work around form the special tooling when I started working on the V4's, and now after doing it for a while I can understand why. The job is not hard, but if you want to do it yourself, buy the special tools and do be job well, you won't be sorry, especially if you like the bike.
    M
    marco bjishkian
    Rocket Ride Cycles
    1855 SW 4th Ave B-17
    Delray Beach FL 33444
    561.455.2840
    Authorized DynoJet Tuning Center

  7. #7
    apriliaforum newb dc10md's Avatar
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    Thank you Marco. I'll keep you posted. Yes in my circle of friends I'm know as the guy that "always buys the right tools". Gotcha

    And on the compression test that is a good idea too. I have all the equipment to do leak down test. Use it on aircraft recip engines. Thanks

  8. #8
    apriliaforum expert mikef4uk's Avatar
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    Checking clearances is pretty straight forward, there is a thread on here 'how to check and adjust'' however, it says to take the throttle bodies off, I have never done that, it's much easier to remove the radiator to get to the front clearances.
    There have been a slack handfull of threads around surging at idle, i'm pretty sure i'm correct in saying 90% of them are either compression or tight valve related

  9. #9
    apriliaforum newb dc10md's Avatar
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    Update on my progress and findings. Again thank you all for the helpful comments and insight. And Marco, after reading the service manual a few times I agree on the special tools. Certainly more complex than the Rotax V twins. I wonder how many were laughing earlier when I said looks like easier access? Geeez lots of stuff.

    Anyway, all of my valve clearances are good except for one. Other than the outboard exhaust valve on the aft right cylinder they were either in tolerance or a little looser. Not worried about a little looser. Problem is the one exhaust valve noted has no clearance. Ugh. Well, I couldn't get a .0015 in so not good.

    Of course my next concern was now do I have a bigger problem? So I fabbed up an adapter so I could use my aircraft cylinder leakdown tester and see if I was facing bigger issues, mainly a messed up exhaust valve.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RSV4 Leakdown tool.jpg 
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    With this I got good news. All cylinders were 78/80 which is awesome for a 10K mile in service engine in cold condition (wish my 600 hr since overhaul Cessna 172 numbers were that strong). For those of you not familiar with that ratio that is about a 2.5% leakage rate. So the aft right cylinder I was concerned about has no leakage other than the rings, which is normal. The only place you could hear air escaping was in the crankcase. Same for all cylinders.

    While I was at first bummed I had to adjust the valve shimming I'm pretty happy now that everything else looks good. Previous owners used quality oil also as there is no evidence of wear on any of the lobes. Again, for 10K it looks good.

    Putting my order together for parts and tools from AF1. In addition to a bunch of other parts (brake pads, chain, other clean up stuff) I'll be ordering the 020850Y and 020865Y tooling along with a shim kit. Was HOPING I could use my Rotax 10mm kit but if course nope. Everybody has to make stuff different.

    Again thanks for the advice. Any other comments or suggestions welcome. Hope to get it done in time for Leesburg.

  10. #10
    apriliaforum expert marcodarq's Avatar
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    You can do the exhaust valve adjustment without removing the intake cams, which require the special cam sprocket holder. You can also line it all up without removing the side covers, but i wouldn't recomend that for the first attempt. Be patient and methodical, using the manual you should be just fine. There are a couple of good shim kits out, but since you just need one, if time is not a factor, break it down and try to get an idea of what shim you need, then buy the kit that has the sizes you need. Take your time and use the book and all should be good.
    M
    marco bjishkian
    Rocket Ride Cycles
    1855 SW 4th Ave B-17
    Delray Beach FL 33444
    561.455.2840
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  11. #11
    apriliaforum expert mikef4uk's Avatar
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    At least with a tight clearance you can always just take the shim to a local machine shop and ask them to take the 7 thou off it with a surface grinder

  12. #12
    apriliaforum expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcodarq View Post
    You can do the exhaust valve adjustment without removing the intake cams, which require the special cam sprocket holder. You can also line it all up without removing the side covers, but i wouldn't recomend that for the first attempt. Be patient and methodical, using the manual you should be just fine. There are a couple of good shim kits out, but since you just need one, if time is not a factor, break it down and try to get an idea of what shim you need, then buy the kit that has the sizes you need. Take your time and use the book and all should be good.
    M
    Just to clarify. Since it's an exhaust valve, you are in luck. Just line up the timing marks on the cam gears for the rear bank. Then lock the front bank cam gears with a gear jammer or piece of copper wire between the gear teeth to keep the crank from turning when you remove the rear bank exhaust cam to replace the shim. That way you won't have to remove the side covers. AF1 has a gasket set that includes everything you need for the valve adjustment. Checkout the link below.

    http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...ed-Walkthrough
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  13. #13
    apriliaforum expert marcodarq's Avatar
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    yep
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    marco bjishkian
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  14. #14
    apriliaforum newb dc10md's Avatar
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    Morning All,

    Just wanted to close out this thread and thank you all again for your advice. I decided to buy a set of metric feeler gauges as with all of my many standard gauge sets I was using I didn't have the graduations I wanted. I bought this really nice German made set off eBay, verified their accuracy once received with my calibrated dial calipers and did one final inspection before tearing stuff apart. And as noted above the only issue I had was on the exhaust cam on the aft bank. Therefore I elected to do just that cam as it was much easier. It went super smooth and since they are exhaust I went to the larger end of the clearance limit on all four. As you recall my issue was the outboard valve on the right aft cylinder had 0 clearance.

    Got everything back together and was very happy!!! 1. No fault light issues on start up. 2. Fixed my idle problem!!!!!!! So happy!!! Haven't ridden yet as I just got everything back together last night.

    Again, thank you all for your advice. It was a great help in getting through this.
    Dave S.

    2017 Aprilia Tuono 1100 RR
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  15. #15
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc10md View Post
    As you recall my issue was the outboard valve on the right aft cylinder had 0 clearance.
    Zero clearance on the most outboard EX valve tells me you have worn out valve guides, I've seen this on quite a few of these engines.

    If I were in your shoes, I would remove the heads and ck all the valves and guides.
    How many miles on the engine?
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