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Thread: Water in oil

  1. #1
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    Water in oil

    Although the likely cause of this is fairly well documented I just thought I would ask anyway......

    So I did the clearances, replaced the burnt out stator and shortly afterwards the bike won't run without a good handful of revs and I get water mixing into my oil.

    This bike has already been resealed by Cal before I bought it, I don't know how likely it is that this may have failed and need resealing again?

    I'm also thinking (due to it not running very well) that it could well be a head gasket failure, potentially brought on by being disturbed due to what seemed like an excessive amount of force that had to be used to get the cam gear off one side. The bike did run fine before I did the clearances, just it would not start from cold very well at all so I thought the clearances might be an issue.

    Possibly also the water pump seal could have failed, which would allow the 'cappucino' mix to occur but wouldn't explain the poor running.

    Any advice of other likely causes I may have missed before stripping it?

    I would love to get it up and running asap as it has already been off the road since last september when this fault occurred and I had to go off to uni. Now I am back I want to get riding again!

  2. #2
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    OK so I have now stripped both heads off and am quite content that the rear head gasket failed because:

    1. The rear piston had white water/oil sludge on and around it. I don't know how else that would get on top of the piston
    2. The rear piston was quite clean (suggesting it had been kinda steam cleaned by the leaking water) compared to the front piston that was covered in carbon deposits

    This thankfully means I don't need to do a reseal. However I now have a couple of questions regarding how to approach the rebuild......

    1. As the actual head gasket shows no sign of failure I'm guessing my head must've warped a little so that will need skimming, however should I do the other head to match?
    2. Also do we replace the head bolts on this engine? I only ask as the ones fitted appear (by the wear) to either have been used more than once, or fitted by someone with a poorly fitting socket that slipped off a lot.

    Finally here are two pics some damage to the rear piston:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Do you think this looks like detonation damage or simply carelessness of a previous rebuilder?
    Obviously if this is detonation then it gives some indication as to the cause of the headgasket failure, unfortunately I have no idea why it would detonate unless it was running on an incorrect map...any other ideas or advice is greatly appreciated.

  3. #3
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    Having now cleaned most of the carbon off the front piston it has very similar damage. What can't be seen in the pics are very light scratches from the centre to the outer edge at the 3 or 9 o'clock position (depending on your veiwpoint). Therefore the damage is very localised which suggests to me that maybe someone has previously used a puller/pusher that 'grips' on the piston face to remove the gudgeon pins.

    That being said I am open to any advice telling me otherwise

  4. #4
    apriliaforum expert levisik's Avatar
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    If you are not sure about bolts, get new ones. I used my old ones, because I new that they were not used before.

    You can grind both heads - it doesn't have to be the same amount - the most important stuff is that the surface of them are flat...

    If I were you - I would split cases, put new sealant and orings on barells and other parts (the same with seals) - not that much work to be done, and you will be 100% sure...
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  5. #5
    apriliaforum Member AdrianSXV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyrob View Post
    if this is detonation then it gives some indication as to the cause of the headgasket failure, unfortunately I have no idea why it would detonate unless it was running on an incorrect map...any other ideas or advice is greatly appreciated.
    It could detonate because of low quality fuel and/or running to lean and/or running too much ignition advance, etc.
    09' MXV 450
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  6. #6
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    levisik - thanks for the advice, however is sealing the two halves not a little tricky? As it has already been done previously by Cal is there not the possibility that I won't do such a good job of it and actually make it leak?

    AdrianSXV - I know that I only put 99RON in it but I have no idea which map it is running as I have yet to get myself an XV Tuner cable. I think I will have to once it is rebuilt just to be sure

  7. #7
    apriliaforum expert levisik's Avatar
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    at this moment, you are not sure, if this leak is not from cases sealant... so decision is yours. If you are not comfortable enough to do it by yourself, just split cases, mark screws, and go to some workshop, where some MX motorcycles are repaired - they are doing probably 10-20 sealant cases each month... They will charge you for it 30-50 quid and you will be sure
    2006 Aprilia SXV 450
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  8. #8
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    I am now definitely certain the rear head gasket failed and it wasn't a case leak, due finding white sludge (oil/water mix) on top of the rear piston only. So I think I will probably leave the re-seal as I believe it to be ok. However I will now follow the advice on the sticky about headgaskets and check the height of my cylinder barrels etc.

  9. #9
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    So finally got a decent steel rule to check that the cylinder liners are sitting proud, unfortunately my feeler gauges haven't arrived yet to measure precisely how much however................the rear cylinder liner is actually very slightly below the engine case, whereas the front one is sitting proud; I'm guessing this is a good explanation as to why the water mixed into the oil.

    Now I have some questions....

    Having looked at the Sticky concerning headgasket issues, clearly i will need to shim the rear liner, does anyone have any good contacts in the UK to do this?

    Also before I get to that does anyone have any advice for removing the liners without using the special tool, or is that the only decent option?

    Looking at the picture below, presumably the shim would go onto the bottom of the liner and then the o-ring to seal?



    Thanks for any help!

  10. #10
    apriliaforum expert levisik's Avatar
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    wait - what tool for liners are you talking about ? you should just pull them out easly without any tool
    2006 Aprilia SXV 450
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  11. #11
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    The Aprilia tool was what I was referring to.................I have since seen a post by amauri saying that it is useless and I should just use a couple of big screwdrivers as seen below



    I didn't much like the idea of screwdrivers potetntialy damaging bits so I tried using a couple of long peices of brass I had lying around......unfortunately the liner didn't move; before I go any further I will remove the big allen screw from the block in case that is tight against the liner....any idea what size it is? It looks like a 16mm but I'm nbot sure and need to go and buy one first.
    Thanks again

  12. #12
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    17mm, but removing that plug will not help you to extract the cylinders.

    Reading your previous post, it isn't clear if you measured the cylinder height with the o-ring in place or without?

    If you do install a shim, you will then have to also use the sealant around the base of the cylinder to prevent a coolant leak.
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  13. #13
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    Amauri - thanks for the allen screw advice. Perhaps mine has already been sealed at the base of the cylinder too, meaning I need to fabricate a twisting tool like you described in a post elsewhere to break the seal and allow extraction, as it didn't move upwards at all when I tried.

    As I haven't yet removed the cylinder liners I'm assuming there was an o-ring still in place when I measured the height (however that depends who last put it back together). From my understanding after reading the headgasket sticky the height should be measured with the o-ring in place as the level of protrusion will account for the o-ring squish when the head bolts are tightened and ensure a correct seal?

  14. #14
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    Must remove o-ring to measure cylinder height, and make sure all surfaces are clean and free of burs to allow the cylinder to seat flat all the way down in the crankcase.

    Yes, if the cylinders were previously installed with sealant it will be very difficult to lift them out of the crankcases.
    Good that you've been reading and already know that.
    Never accept mediocrity, always demand competence.

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  15. #15
    apriliaforum expert levisik's Avatar
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    my sleeve went very easy. I just opened inspecion window on side, tapped 2-3 times with some rubber hammer into sleeve direction top, and it just popped like there was nothing holding it...

    in my opinion this tool is not needed here.

    btw - I would never use 2 screwdrivers like that - this could damage surface...
    2006 Aprilia SXV 450
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