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Thread: Flat Tappet problems on 8V Guzzis permed 2012.

  1. #46
    apriliaforum prov-nov
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    Perfectly clean?
    A crowbar to head or a swift gouging of the eyes to clear their vision methinks.

    Pete showed me a pic of a 1200 Sport with tappets that looked like yours (like they'd been hit with an angle grinder). I was agog then, and I'm agog now. The noise must have been like the din of hell.

  2. #47
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Dave's experience has been a litany of disaster. The only Guzzi agent in Northern Ireland at the time was yer archetypal Shaved Ape. He messed with the throttle stop screws and linkage rod, didn't know how to re-set the TPS, didn't recognise the tappets going west. You name it? It had happened. I knew Dave from the V11 board and he was an early adopter of the 8V whose experience was completely spoilt by the ineptitude of the shop he had to deal with.

    Anyway Dave, Jude and I are hoping to be visiting Ireland in August/September. If you have the top end sorted by then and the bottom end holds together I can bring a spare pair of unmolested TB's over and I can flash your bike with Mark's map so it will finally go like an 8V should. If you're leery of letting any of the local shops touch it I can do the parts swap on a pair of exchange heads here and all you'll need to do is install them.

    Pete

    PS. You aren't still running the GT pipe are you? That thing may be good to look at but it's an absolutely AWFUL pipe performance wise!
    Last edited by pete roper; 02-13-2016 at 05:26 PM.
    Professional Goat Burster.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post

    Anyway Dave, Jude and I are hoping to be visiting Ireland in August/September.

    Pete
    !! wow !! I hope that happens: as soon as you know dates, do let me know, please.

    For now, do you want to see photos from today's inspection?
    I'll not hold it against you if you say no.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    Dave? Did you ever manage to get the throttle bodies close to right again after the shaved ape screwed about with them? That moor bike seems to have been treated in such a way as to have become the absolute pinnacle of screwed-upness!

    Pete
    Hey Pete, thanks for asking. The TBs are the least of my worries, because I did get the air balance, the TB screw adjustment etc set up well & TPS reset. Maybe not perfect as the word at the time was that it's impossible to restore correct setting once it's been fiddled (unless maybe on a flow bench) but it was a huge amount better and to all intents and purposes, it has been working well (apart from the effect of that pipe!).
    Edit - I see you mentioned that in other post!

    I could not have gotten anything done with it if you hadn't generously lent the Axone, half-way across the earth, as no-one here had one or would use. (As you know, at that time dealers tend to say, ach, you don't need that – cos they were afraid to press a couple of buttons.) I sometimes wonder where the Ax is now? I sent it off on another cross-ocean travel to Dennis, after I had finished.

    A million thanks, it was so fantastic (especially as I was in such a hole and there wasn't another way out).
    D

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    Dave's experience has been a litany of disaster. The only Guzzi agent in Northern Ireland at the time was yer archetypal Shaved Ape. He messed with the throttle stop screws and linkage rod, didn't know how to re-set the TPS, didn't recognise the tappets going west. You name it? It had happened.

    This type of ineptitude sets my bristles tumescent. Again, with the crowbar


    +1 what Pete said about the GT pipe. I would pay good money to see a video of it crushed in a press.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    PS. You aren't still running the GT pipe are you? That thing may be good to look at but it's an absolutely AWFUL pipe performance wise!
    Re pipe

    If I am to keep the Griso on the road, I will have to install the roller gear.
    Then I will need a new map (so I guess that's a matter of finding someone with the right hardware to connect up and run the software).

    As an academic question at this point:
    IF I kept that pipe,is there a map for roller and the GT rx pipe (daft question, eh)?

    Otherwise, what I will need to do is put the original can back on. I don't know what the general practise is these days? Are many running the stock exhaust as the most workable solution, or has another pipe been generally adopted as good, with new map?

    I don't particularly fancy refitting the original can, for the normal reasons, but the main reason that I haven't slipped it back on before now, is because of how I had to to modify the headers to get the badly fitting GT pipes on. I had to shorten them and file down the diameter. The fit of the GT was terrible. When I got it, the parts didn't even fit themselves, never mind fit the Griso. The tubes were oval and the diameters didn't match up. The Griso tubes are a wider diameter than the narrower GT pipe that has to fit over the Griso headers. I didn't know about 'a pipe expander', so I spent a long time cutting, slicing, hammering, heating and filing to make the parts fit. (I have photos.) It could be a bit of a job making up the gaps there will be when putting the OE parts back.

    Maybe I will persuade myself to get a different aftermarket pipe, but's it's the money thing. I wasn't planning on having to fund a roller top-end conversion, so more expense for a pipe on top of that will be rough. This whole 'let's get a brand new Griso adventure' certainly doesn't make much economic sense in terms of per mile, given it has been off the road for so much of its life.

    EDIT - No, it would not have been the headers that I shortened: it must have been the GT tubes? I would need to look to remember what exactly was cut short. I did file down the Griso headers though, to take them down to a diameter that would accept the GT.
    Last edited by belfastguzzi; 02-14-2016 at 06:09 AM.

  7. #52
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Have you still got the original 'Pretzel' for the exhaust? It's there for a reason. If not you'll need one. Lots of people have swallowed the magic potions flogged by some people, the problem is they don't work because they can't be bothered understanding how the 8V works.

    After that the stock pipe is ugly as three butt-fucks but it works pretty well. In Mark and My experience the best aftermarket pipe is the Mistral Hi-Pipe, oddly enough this is what we both run, with a dB killer installed.

    As far as tuning and mapping is concerned? Download Guzzidiag and read up on it. Learn how to use the reader and writer programmes and Mark or I can send you a map that will transform your bike's performance. Yes, the tune has to be accurate for it to be right and there is nothing for the GT pipe because, as Mark says, it's a piece of shit and not worth bothering with.

    Ten years on tuning and re-mapping a W5AM bike is an open book. The trick is to find someone who understands why the Guzzi 8V is such a queer fish in the modern world and how the entire system from airbox to exhaust outlet has to be understood holistically for the best results. There are no promises for stupid HP figures from us. In fact overall power gains are small! What Mark's maps do deliver is seamless power delivery from sub-2,000rpm to where the rev limiter is set which on our rollerised bikes is 8,750. For most of that range torque is in the mid eighties ft/lbs. No special air filters, no shitty plug-in adapters, no stupid, loud, open pipes. Just good set up and good mapping.

    Pete
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  8. #53
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    Cheers Pete. I did keep it though it broke up a bit when coming off. Anyway I can get a new one, although I have always wondered how well that will work given the smaller diameter of my header pipes now. Maybe ok.

    I will look into the Mistral option, though sorting the roller thing is first priority. I will just have to hope that bottom end is in reasonable condition - until something happens to tell me otherwise. The mileage is low.

    My problem with the diagnostics in past has been that I don't have a PC. I'm all Mac (that goes with Guzzi ownership, surely?). Maybe there is a Mac version? I'll look see.

    You've seen this all before >

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  9. #54
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    What do you make of this? Everything was tightened up hard to spec. The nut has obviously been trying to unscrew itself and the tang has eaten into the alloy. Have you seen that happen before? What is the purpose of having this type of 'washer' under one nut per head anyway?

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  10. #55
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    It's the earthing tang David. The spark plug boots are notoriously fragile and if care isn't taken they get damaged and the spark will start arcing to earth on the rocker cover. Thing is the rocker cover is insulated from the engine by the gasket and o-ring around the plug tunnel so there is an earthing tang that touches the rocker cover to allow the electrons an earth path. That, along with the plastic cover on the back of the rocker covers, are the defence against the spark deciding to earth out through your knee when you are leant over in a corner which would be errrr? Disconcerting

    The reason it's cut into the rocker support is because they usually do when you undo the main head stud nuts to remove the cambox. Don't worry about them though as you discard them when you rollerise. The tang on later bikes has been relocated to the two centre clamp bolts on the rocker support.

    Pete
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  11. #56
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    Yep I found out about the spark issue early on. :-)
    The revised boot helped with that. The other problem with spark relates to the dampness over here. The steel tube is prone to taking in water and rusting. That caused me misfiring / arcing trouble too on the right side, the one that is always facing up into the rain when bike is on side stand.


    SO that's why that tang normally digs into the rocker cover. I had thought it was a bad fit. :-D I probably turned that one away from the cover as much as I could, so it wouldn't dig in. :-)))))))))))

    And that's why they have that plastic cover too?! I've never understood why they 'messed up' the design of metal cover with the plastic. That explains it.

  12. #57
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Dave, piss the original caps off, they're a pain in the arse. Removing them is possible by inserting a thin screwdriver above the exhaust header, (There is a tunnel in the head.) and pry them up from the bottom to avoid stressing the right angle in the cap. Much the easiest though is simply replace the caps with NGK SB05E bakelite caps and fold the leads under the covers. End of any arcing issues.

    Pete
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    The advantage of this is that although you will still have to remove the heads to fit the new valve springs to the inlet valves you won't have to disturb the valve stem oil seals to insert a shim under the spring seat as the 2015 bikes don't use the shims so the new springs should do the job the shims in the kits are supposed to do.
    Pete
    Hi

    New to this forum, own one '97 V10 Centauro and one '84 1000 LeMans. As I used to work as a car mechanics during the 80's, I suggest using compressed air through the spark plug hole to keep the valves into place while removing the spring. Unless there is another reason for removing the cylinder head ...
    You have to make a proper adaptor for the air hose and the spring, but that shouldn't be a problem. We did this as routine when exchanging valve stem oil seals, which was a common issue on VAG cars back then. Eight seals exchanged in less than one hour!

    BTW, make sure you don't loose the air pressure! Been there, done that.


    BR, Mikael
    Last edited by mdagbro; 05-20-2016 at 05:52 PM.

  14. #59
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Sorry but you are not familiar with this engine. That idea isn't practical because once the cambox is removed the only thing retaining the head is the two long, 6mm, bolts that clamp the back of the head around the cam chain tunnel. These should be loosened prior to undoing the four main stud nuts that retain the cambox and head to prevent the risk of warpage but any method, compressed air or the rope trick, is impractical on this motor. Collapsing the beehive springs in-situ would also be very difficult.

    It's been suggested before but really the whole engine is so delightfully simple these sort of time/labour saving short cuts are really much more effort and involve much more risk of damage than simply doing it by removing the head. Really.

    Pete
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  15. #60
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    You're right, I do not know this engine and was wrong. Planning to buy me a used 1200 Guzzi and trying to catch up on the subject ... but obviously still has a lot to learn.

    Thanks for the information!

    BR, Mikael

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