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Thread: WSBK Riviera di Rimini [spoiler]

  1. #31
    apriliaforum expert Triple J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ape66 View Post
    What rule was that??
    Essentially moving to EVO rules. I don't think it necessarily benefits the other manufacturers though, as much as it just reigned in Aprilia's mods to their bikes. The RSV4 just isn't dominant when they aren't allowed to do their full builds.

    I don't think WSBK is boring at all. Rea may be running away with the points, but the races have been very good. Who cares if the same guy always wins if he has to battle to do it! The battle is the entertainment.

    I don't think the rider quality has dropped either. I'd actually say the opposite, as there are quite a few strong riders the past few seasons. It just so happens that Rea is the best right now (not a surprise), and the Kawi is still a great bike (also not a surprise).
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  2. #32
    apriliaforum expert ape66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple J View Post
    Essentially moving to EVO rules. I don't think it necessarily benefits the other manufacturers though, as much as it just reigned in Aprilia's mods to their bikes. The RSV4 just isn't dominant when they aren't allowed to do their full builds.

    I don't think WSBK is boring at all. Rea may be running away with the points, but the races have been very good. Who cares if the same guy always wins if he has to battle to do it! The battle is the entertainment.

    I don't think the rider quality has dropped either. I'd actually say the opposite, as there are quite a few strong riders the past few seasons. It just so happens that Rea is the best right now (not a surprise), and the Kawi is still a great bike (also not a surprise).
    AMEN to that TripleJ.
    If someone should complain it should be Ducati. Being an oversquared twin Duc'arley motor and all.
    Are the ducs still running air restrictors. It will be interesting to see what the new Gixxer will be like and yamaha coming in next year.
    Gunna be some MIIIGGGHHHTTTYYY fine racing next year. And if Aprilia can't compete.I don't think we can blame Dorna for that one

  3. #33
    apriliaforum Junkie spank36's Avatar
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    Why don't the likes of Rea and Sykes get a motogp gig?
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  4. #34
    apriliaforum expert Powerful Pierre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spank36 View Post
    Why don't the likes of Rea and Sykes get a motogp gig?
    Age, passport, in the wrong championship to get noticed, lack of available seats etc etc........Johnny Rea is, and always has been, an exceptional talent but I doubt there's any way into GP for him now, at least on a decent bike (look at what's happened to Laverty, Melandri, Baz, doomed to lower mid field in GP, or bog last in Marco's case in the main due to mediocre machinery). He stayed loyal to Honda far too long and believed their false promises of a future GP ride, he should have jumped ship much earlier, he'd have been a multiple champion by now had he been on a decent bike. Suppose his target now is to dominate WSB for a while and make up for those lost years.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ape66 View Post
    AMEN to that TripleJ.
    If someone should complain it should be Ducati. Being an oversquared twin Duc'arley motor and all.
    Are the ducs still running air restrictors. It will be interesting to see what the new Gixxer will be like and yamaha coming in next year.
    Gunna be some MIIIGGGHHHTTTYYY fine racing next year. And if Aprilia can't compete.I don't think we can blame Dorna for that one
    The rules change that specifically hurt Aprilia are:
    1. Allowing ride by wire throttle on bikes that aren't homologated with ride by wire. The RSV4 was designed with ride by wire.
    2. Not allowing gearbox ratio changes. The RSV4 was designed with a cassette box, so they could optimize gearing at each circuit.
    3. Not allowing to change the method of driving the cams. The RSV4 was designed to change over from chain drive to gear drive.

    And no, the Ducatis are not running intake restrictors and all bikes have the same weight limits.

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    Last edited by Diablo1; 06-22-2015 at 06:18 AM.
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  6. #36
    apriliaforum expert Powerful Pierre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diablo1 View Post
    The rules change that specifically hurt Aprilia are:
    1. Allowing ride by wire throttle on bikes that aren't homologated with ride by wire. The RSV4 was designed with ride by wire.
    2. Not allowing gearbox ratio changes. The RSV4 was designed with a cassette box, so they could optimize gearing at each circuit.
    3. Not allowing to change the method of driving the cams. The RSV4 was designed to change over from chain drive to gear drive.

    And no, the Ducatis are not running intake restrictors and all bikes have the same weight limits.
    1) I thought the idea of that was to standardise the electronics package across the grid, similar to what is proposed for Motogp next year, so that the lesser teams without the big budgets could get a look in and the bikes that are OOD could be brought a little more up to date to allow them some chance of being competitive until such time as new models arrive?

    2) Again, wasn't fixing ratios at the beginning of the season was meant to give those that don't have access to ratio changes some chance of competing on an equal footing?

    3) If superbike is supposed to reflect the showroom models we can all buy then shouldn't we be able to buy an Aprilia with gear driven cams?

    As I see it the WSB Aprilia's have been a very sophisticated race bike over the last few years which maybe stretched the ideals of completion in the class a little too far, as did the works BMW's, hence the rule changes to exercise a tighter control on the modifications/upgrades that can be made.

    Yes, it would appear that, at this point, out of the factory efforts Aprilia have suffered the most, but ultimately it does appear to have levelled the playing field overall.....OK, Kawasaki appear to have adapted the best and have the best package at the mo, but if you took Jonathan Rea out of the equation then maybe not so much so? Tom Sykes has also been struggling to adapt to his bike under the new rules.

    And teams such as Ten Kate, Crescent Suzuki and MV seem to be suffering way more than Aprilia, particularly with the transition to an unfamiliar electronics package.

    Its the first year of this new format, no doubt they'll gather data over the season and fine tune the rules for next year if necessary, but overall I think its headed in the right direction......and Aprilia's latest superstock bike is hardly shabby compared to previous offerings so maybe their upcoming superbikes will regain some of what they'd lost.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerful Pierre View Post
    1) I thought the idea of that was to standardise the electronics package across the grid, similar to what is proposed for Motogp next year, so that the lesser teams without the big budgets could get a look in and the bikes that are OOD could be brought a little more up to date to allow them some chance of being competitive until such time as new models arrive?

    2) Again, wasn't fixing ratios at the beginning of the season was meant to give those that don't have access to ratio changes some chance of competing on an equal footing?

    3) If superbike is supposed to reflect the showroom models we can all buy then shouldn't we be able to buy an Aprilia with gear driven cams?

    As I see it the WSB Aprilia's have been a very sophisticated race bike over the last few years which maybe stretched the ideals of completion in the class a little too far, as did the works BMW's, hence the rule changes to exercise a tighter control on the modifications/upgrades that can be made.

    Yes, it would appear that, at this point, out of the factory efforts Aprilia have suffered the most, but ultimately it does appear to have levelled the playing field overall.....OK, Kawasaki appear to have adapted the best and have the best package at the mo, but if you took Jonathan Rea out of the equation then maybe not so much so? Tom Sykes has also been struggling to adapt to his bike under the new rules.

    And teams such as Ten Kate, Crescent Suzuki and MV seem to be suffering way more than Aprilia, particularly with the transition to an unfamiliar electronics package.

    Its the first year of this new format, no doubt they'll gather data over the season and fine tune the rules for next year if necessary, but overall I think its headed in the right direction......and Aprilia's latest superstock bike is hardly shabby compared to previous offerings so maybe their upcoming superbikes will regain some of what they'd lost.
    The RSV4 was developed in 2006-2008 to conform to the WSBK rules. The other manufacturers had a decade to make improvements to their bike designs. Why should they be rewarded by rules-changes for their failure to advance their designs? Yes, it levels the field, but that process is unfair to manufacturers like Aprilia that made the engineering investments when developing their production bike. Aprilia has shown they can adapt to rules-changes with the new RSV4-RF, but that doesn't change the perception that politics in WSBK will neuter good engineering once it becomes clear that a manufacturer has built a better mousetrap.
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  8. #38
    apriliaforum expert Powerful Pierre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diablo1 View Post
    The RSV4 was developed in 2006-2008 to conform to the WSBK rules. The other manufacturers had a decade to make improvements to their bike designs. Why should they be rewarded by rules-changes for their failure to advance their designs? Yes, it levels the field, but that process is unfair to manufacturers like Aprilia that made the engineering investments when developing their production bike. Aprilia has shown they can adapt to rules-changes with the new RSV4-RF, but that doesn't change the perception that politics in WSBK will neuter good engineering once it becomes clear that a manufacturer has built a better mousetrap.
    I don't disagree at all, but the Japanese manufacturers in particular seem to come at it from the opposite direction nowadays ie they build a road bike which then has to be developed to work as a race-bike, whereas Aprilia built a race-bike and then adapted it to work as a road-bike. As we all know the Japanese used to do the same back in the days of the RC30, OW01 etc but they seem disinclined to do that now.

    I suppose the thinking is that if Aprilia were allowed to continue as they were, with a performance advantage because their base package was superior in the first place, then there would be a danger that the other manufacturers might reach the conclusion that they'd never be able to compete on an equal footing and therefore decide not to bother as it would show their products in an inferior light.

    I'm guessing that all the manufacturers were party to the drafting of the current rules and a compromise must have been achieved which favours some and is a disadvantage to others.....but if they want full grids and active participation from all then something had to be done to make taking part more attractive surely?

    Of course it is not beyond the capabilities of a factory like Honda to do what they did before and build/homologate a bike that would wipe the floor with everything else, they've done it before, but do we really want another escalating arms race that drives everybody else away?

    I can understand Aprilia feeling hard done by, the Italian's in general have a very canny way of interpreting the rules and finding some slightly dubious but perfectly legal interpretation that gives them an edge, but at the mo they don't seem to be finding it......maybe the loss of Gigi is also a factor? They are very close tho', maybe if JR was on the bike we wouldn't be having this conversation!

  9. #39
    apriliaforum expert cggunnersmate's Avatar
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    All the Japanese companies were hit hardest by the recession. Alot of people that were buying their sport bikes couldn't afford it anymore and yet the European bike owner base seemed to be less affected and in some cases grew (call the widening of the separation between the classes if you want to get political). So the Euros have continued to develop their product whereas the Japanese took a much more conservative approach and are slowly (almost stagnantly in a couple cases) returning with new products and more race oriented sport bikes. Kawasaki was the first but they were also the first to abandon GP and they devoted their efforts to Superbike racing and made improvements to the ZX-10R and now with their H2's. And Yamaha's been ramping up lately with the FZ's and now the new track focused R1. Suzuki and Honda are still lagging behind though Suzuki has re-entered GP with their crossplane crank I4 (like the Yamaha M1) GSR whatever it is. Which makes me speculate that we may see a crossplane crank GSX-R 1000 before too long. Regardless, the Gixxer needs a major update.

    Then there's Honda. The company that led the charge to 4 strokes in order to develop technologies for their street bikes who has done possibly the least with said developments towards their street bikes. Every other manufacturer has street bikes that have tech (mainly electronics lately though chassis development as well) from GP programs trickled to their street bikes. What have we got from Honda's GP program, their rear suspension system, steering dampner maybe and some chassis tech. All of it that's around 10 years old.

    Oh wait, we have the RC213-RS "street bike" that's so nuetered their own old CBR 600 will likely trounce the thing in stock trim at a 10th the price. Unless you buy the track only ECU to uncork it. What a joke and insult. It's not even a homologation special like the RC30/45. The RC51 is their last bike that was more or less a race bike made road worthy. Honda, formerly a leader in putting cutting edge tech on their bikes is now the most conservative. We'll probably see greater inovations from Hyosung at this rate.

    But Yamaha at least has followed the Euro trend developing more a race bike and then making it road worthy. The Kawi is still mostly road bike but more track focused. Let's see what the next iteration of the GSXR is like.
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  10. #40
    apriliaforum expert Bill in OKC's Avatar
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    It must be disheartening to design in all of Aprilia's advanced features and then the rules weenies gut it and declare headlight stickers are what the series really needs. At least the RSV4 wasn't outlawed from racing completely like the small V twins were.
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  11. #41
    apriliaforum expert Triple J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diablo1 View Post
    The rules change that specifically hurt Aprilia are:
    1. Allowing ride by wire throttle on bikes that aren't homologated with ride by wire. The RSV4 was designed with ride by wire.
    2. Not allowing gearbox ratio changes. The RSV4 was designed with a cassette box, so they could optimize gearing at each circuit.
    3. Not allowing to change the method of driving the cams. The RSV4 was designed to change over from chain drive to gear drive.
    #1 has me confused. Which bikes out there now weren't designed with RBW? I'm pretty sure the Ducati, ZX-10, BMW were...the Honda and GSXR probably not, as they're older models before electronics started on the street bikes...but they aren't fighting for wins either, so who cares.

    #2 - agreed. I don't get the gearing freeze.

    #3 - sorry, the gear cams were always skirting the rules because they were supposedly available to regular customers.

    Rules change, and Aprilia needs to adapt. They're still right there, they just aren't dominating like before. Could be riders as well...Haslam is the clear #1 guy, but is likely still getting over his injuries. He probably just isn't as fast as Rea either.

    Ducati have nothing to complain about. Their bike is fast enough, is just seems to be a handful. Look how loose that thing is compared to the other bikes!
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  12. #42
    apriliaforum expert Cryogeneric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tdawg View Post
    Don't think the quality of riders has gone down. Spies had a dominant year but because of the new yamaha, crashes, and that he's not Spanish or Italian made it different.
    Spies dominated in 2009 because he was better then everyone else. The new R1 wasn't even close to the best bike. He made a couple of silly mistakes but also had an unusually high number of odd mechanical/technical issues. He was taken out once and run off the track, too. Had luck been more in his favor, it wouldn't have been close.

  13. #43
    apriliaforum expert JedB's Avatar
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    And running out of gas while in the lead.
    once.

  14. #44
    apriliaforum expert Cryogeneric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerful Pierre View Post
    Suppose his target now is to dominate WSB for a while and make up for those lost years.
    No shame in that! Bayliss is considered a legend by most and Rea can do the same. I hope he wins multiple championships. I'll be rooting for him.

    Plus, you never know: If Kawasaki chooses to re-enter GP, Rea might be their first rider.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple J View Post
    #1 has me confused. Which bikes out there now weren't designed with RBW? I'm pretty sure the Ducati, ZX-10, BMW were...the Honda and GSXR probably not, as they're older models before electronics started on the street bikes...but they aren't fighting for wins either, so who cares.

    !
    Read this, and you'll understand how the rules change helped Kawasaki.

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