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Thread: Does Mana uses the SECVT of Suzuki

  1. #16
    apriliaforum Junkie Cortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockynv View Post
    Discount shops have the belt for the 650 for as low as $324.42. The primary pulley is about $700 and the secondary around $625. If your mess up the drive faces you could be looking at $2,000 or more worth of parts plus whatever the labor comes to. Its not for the faint of heart when something goes wrong.
    I've heard repair costs of up to 3000 euros here in Europe.. that's why I'm asking.
    I love both the Burgman and Mana because of their "adjustable" CVTs, I'll never buy a scooter again with a conventional
    CVT but seems like both of these bikes are out of my reach when I look at regular maintenance.
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  2. #17
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    So don't buy one! Its really very simple. If you can't afford something don't buy one! I'd love a Maserati Quatroporte to run around in. Alas its out of my price range so I don't own one. For most of my life I've been quite poor, I never owned a new vehicle until I was fifty and spent most of my life riding and driving stuff I bought broken and fixed. If you can't afford stuff don't buy it! Don't even pretend you can buy it! That way lies madness and disaster.

    Pete
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  3. #18
    apriliaforum Junkie Cortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    So don't buy one! Its really very simple. If you can't afford something don't buy one! I'd love a Maserati Quatroporte to run around in. Alas its out of my price range so I don't own one. For most of my life I've been quite poor, I never owned a new vehicle until I was fifty and spent most of my life riding and driving stuff I bought broken and fixed. If you can't afford stuff don't buy it! Don't even pretend you can buy it! That way lies madness and disaster.

    Pete
    I don't think people who can't afford something need to be told not to buy it - since, um, not being able to afford something means not having
    enough money to buy it, right? I can buy the bike, but I don't like the "premium" upkeep cost and rather often "problem this, problem that" threads
    that keep popping up since day one.

    But I really like everything else about it (and I wish it had Honda's DCT gearbox, that would make it perfect in my book).

    Besides, I never said I was buying or not buying anything, that's not the thread topic/subject.
    Last edited by Cortez; 05-05-2014 at 01:57 PM.
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  4. #19
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Not being able to afford something doesn't mean people won't do it. Why do you think so many people are saddled with enormous debt?

    As for problem threads? That's why people come to boards like this. Partly to get answers and partly to whinge. Very few people start a thread saying 'My bike is super reliable and runs like a top!'.

    Pete
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  5. #20
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    Pete - My bike is super reliable and runs like a top and there is just about nothing I would change about it not even the conventional CVT which works as it should. Simple, cost effective and easy to work on with about a $50 investment in a few Buzetti tools. The only regret is that Aprilia has stopped making 250cc scooters and has not come out with a variation based on the Piaggio BV350 engine. It has been my daily rain or shine, hot or cold commuter for 3 years now. I have not had time to get out much lately so I only have 22,000 miles on the Sport City but is has been basically trouble free despite many interstate jaunts at 75+ mph.

    A simpler version of the Mana gased on the BV350 drive train would be an interesting study to me.

    I don't get a good feeling from comparisons of the Honda DCT gearbox to the Mana or a conventional CVT. Most I have seen put the DCT as a lackluster alternative. At least it has more speeds than the old Hondamatic.

    To many folks don't count the cost before they make a purchase and then find out too late that they can't afford the required maintainance. Then when the skimp because they can't afford the upkeep and have non-stop problems the tend to whine. Yes one does have to look before they leap and plan on the total cost of ownership not just the initial purchase price.

  6. #21
    apriliaforum Junkie Cortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    Not being able to afford something doesn't mean people won't do it. Why do you think so many people are saddled with enormous debt?
    True.
    I bought only my first bike like that and it was a mistake I will never make again.

    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    As for problem threads? That's why people come to boards like this. Partly to get answers and partly to whinge. Very few people start a thread saying 'My bike is super reliable and runs like a top!'.
    I've been on a lot of bike related forums in the past 12-15 years and I'm afraid this forum (not just the Mana subforum, but Pegaso, Shiver, and scooter forums too) stands out by a lot with the percentage of the threads
    being problem related, and for some bikes (like the Pegaso or Mana) it's the same problems years after years, they obviously don't update/fix issues but rather take care of them under warranty as many times as needed.

    It's not just the forums, I've had 5 years in 2 motorcycle related jobs, I personally know all dealerships and repair shops around here since I worked with a lot of them in the past
    2 years (that's around 90 shops at the moment) and I've seen a lot of the same around too. Bare in mind that I live in Croatia which is right next door to Italy - we have a lot of
    Italian bikes on our streets, and even more in the repairshops..
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  7. #22
    apriliaforum Junkie Cortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockynv View Post
    The only regret is that Aprilia has stopped making 250cc scooters and has not come out with a variation based on the Piaggio BV350 engine.
    The 250cc engine has been replaced by the 278cc engine which is better in every single way (and probably the most reliable Piaggio engine at the moment), and
    you can get that engine in all Aprilia scooters (at least here). The 278 (300) has a lot more torque, revs less and returns better MPG figures while being faster,
    so, I don't see why anyone would mourn for the 250.

    As for the 350 - since it's a rather fresh Piaggio's baby, they'll keep it in the Piaggio lineup probably as long as possible making people buy their no.1 brand scoots
    before throwing the engine over to Aprilia, but it will happen for sure, it's in their (Piaggio's) best interest too. A lot of people here are waiting for a Gilera Nexus 350
    and/or Aprilia SR-max 350 (same bike).
    '08 Yamaha FZ6n S2 ABS

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  8. #23
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cortez View Post

    It's not just the forums, I've had 5 years in 2 motorcycle related jobs, I personally know all dealerships and repair shops around here since I worked with a lot of them in the past
    2 years (that's around 90 shops at the moment) and I've seen a lot of the same around too. Bare in mind that I live in Croatia which is right next door to Italy - we have a lot of
    Italian bikes on our streets, and even more in the repairshops..
    Hang on? Which is it? You have had two jobs in the motorbike trade in the last five years? Or you've worked in most of the local motorbike business and worked in 90 shops in two years! That's an average of two to three weeks in each! You must be a shit employee or a ridiculous prima-donna! No wonder the bikes are all broken if the local network can't identify a complete flake who only stays at a job a couple of weeks. Do you get sacked or 'Choose to Leave'?

    Mate, I've been in the spannering game for forty two years, the last fifteen or so entirely self employed with my own bizznizz. I do exclusively Guzzi and Aprilia although Guzzi is my true love. I have no serious problems with either marque that aren't matched by equal or worse experiences well known with others.

    Why you continue trolling your sad little tales of unreliability I don't know? Perhaps you're working for a Honda shop this week and the employer hasn't checked your Facebook page yet..... :P

    Pete
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockynv View Post

    A simpler version of the Mana gased on the BV350 drive train would be an interesting study to me.

    .
    The Gilera GP800 and Aprilia's version the SRV850 maxiscooters use the Mana 839cc donk but run a conventional variator - perhaps one could drop one of those donks into a Mana frame....

  10. #25
    apriliaforum Junkie Cortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    Hang on? Which is it? You have had two jobs in the motorbike trade in the last five years? Or you've worked in most of the local motorbike business and worked in 90 shops in two years! That's an average of two to three weeks in each! You must be a shit employee or a ridiculous prima-donna! No wonder the bikes are all broken if the local network can't identify a complete flake who only stays at a job a couple of weeks. Do you get sacked or 'Choose to Leave'?
    I worked in ONE bike shop 2003-2005 and for another employer that was importer for SHAD, Biondi and Tucano Urbano stuff (along with Kymco) and I was in charge of wholesale and
    supervision of Kymco shops (30+ of them). Most of them had other big bike brands along with the scooters too. Add some 30-odd Piaggio dealers and 30 Yamaha and Honda dealers and
    you get to around 90 locations that I used to visit at least once a month for over 2 years (2012-2014).

    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    Mate, I've been in the spannering game for forty two years, the last fifteen or so entirely self employed with my own bizznizz. I do exclusively Guzzi and Aprilia although Guzzi is my true love. I have no serious problems with either marque that aren't matched by equal or worse experiences well known with others.
    Why you continue trolling your sad little tales of unreliability I don't know? Perhaps you're working for a Honda shop this week and the employer hasn't checked your Facebook page yet..... :P
    You are ONE guy, I know over a hundred of them country wide, on 1st name basis.
    That A LOT more exposure, and some of them have been doing it their whole lives too.

    I don't have a job at all at the moment, not for the last 5 months, I live in country where over half a million of people
    is currently unemployed, and there's only 4 million of us here. There's 26 job offers in my city/county, and over 25.000 people looking
    for a job.

    So, yeah..
    I'm not trolling at all, I have no interest in this, I'm just transfering what I've heard and seen during the years, and heard it so many
    times that it can not be a coincidence, and forum posts here confirm that trend. Take a look at burgmanusa forum, or kawiforums,
    or twtex suzuki/bandit forums, and perhaps adventure rider. Every 20th or 30th post is about some issue, while here, it's almost ever
    3rd or 4th.

    I'm here because I absolutely love Aprilia bikes and was blown away by every single one I tried, Dorsoduro most recently, and the Mana
    seems to be the answer to my "motorcycle or scooter" dilemma, and I've been here since the subforum was made, and you can still see
    the very same issues popping up every once in a while that I was reading about here 6-7 years ago. Same goes for Piaggio (and piaggio
    based scooters).

    I'm not the one who's biased here - the owners usually are.
    Anyways, I'm assuming you'll disagree with everything I wrote, so you don't need to reply back, I'm here to learn about the differences
    between the Burgman and Mana CVTs, since those 2 bikes are high on my list of what I'd like to own next and not to talk about where
    I work at.

    Also, I don't use Facebook.
    Last edited by Cortez; 05-06-2014 at 08:54 AM.
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  11. #26
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    Hello Cortez.

    You write:
    "I'm here to learn about the differences between the Burgman and Mana CVTs, since those 2 bikes are high on my list of what I'd like to own next and not to talk about where I work at."

    The pdf at

    http://www.pattakon.com/PatBox/SECVT.pdf

    presents technically and evaluates the CVT of Suzuki Burgman (it is a Bachelor Final Project, Eindhoven Technical University; the CVT -or SECVT- was analyzed and then used - with a Suzuki GSX-R 600 engine - in the International Formula Student Competition in England Silverstone taking the first price in "class 3").

    I don't think you can find a better technical presentation of the Suzuki Burgman CVT in the Internet.


    Trying to show the differences of the SECVT (Suzuki Electronically controlled Continuously Variable Transmission) from the PECVT (PatBox Electronically-controlled CVT) in another forum (BurgmanUSA), I made the following two drawings :






    Also a drawing showing the way the V-belt is released, in the case of the PECVT, from a good part of unneccesary loads existing in the case of the SECVT:




    It seems the only significant difference of the Aprilia Mana CVT from the Suzuki Burman CVT is the conventional (and cheap) V-belt of the first.

    If you want further explanations for anything, please let me know.

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  12. #27
    apriliaforum Junkie Cortez's Avatar
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    Manolis, that's an amazing post, drawings, and I'm sure the PDF too, it'll make great bedtime reading material, thank
    you very much. Now THIS is how forums should be used.

    +5 internets for you, sir!
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
    The 250cc engine has been replaced by the 278cc engine which is better in every single way (and probably the most reliable Piaggio engine at the moment), and
    you can get that engine in all Aprilia scooters (at least here). The 278 (300) has a lot more torque, revs less and returns better MPG figures while being faster,
    so, I don't see why anyone would mourn for the 250.

    As for the 350 - since it's a rather fresh Piaggio's baby, they'll keep it in the Piaggio lineup probably as long as possible making people buy their no.1 brand scoots
    before throwing the engine over to Aprilia, but it will happen for sure, it's in their (Piaggio's) best interest too. A lot of people here are waiting for a Gilera Nexus 350
    and/or Aprilia SR-max 350 (same bike).
    Piaggio is taking all larger than 50cc Aprilia Scooters from the US Market so that we only get the DiTec 50 and Motard 50 scooters here.

    Some of the 300cc we have seen have had soft rocker arms and have not been trouble free however it is the class of scooter from Aprilia that we will be missing. The 250 has been a very reliable and solid performer while very few Sport City 300's have made it here to the US making it hard to miss what we never really had.

  14. #29
    apriliaforum Junkie Cortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockynv View Post
    Piaggio is taking all larger than 50cc Aprilia Scooters from the US Market so that we only get the DiTec 50 and Motard 50 scooters here.

    Some of the 300cc we have seen have had soft rocker arms and have not been trouble free however it is the class of scooter from Aprilia that we will be missing. The 250 has been a very reliable and solid performer while very few Sport City 300's have made it here to the US making it hard to miss what we never really had.
    True, I've noticed a lot of SC 250s there and they're very popular, and by the time you guys got the 250, we already had the 300 cube on our market.
    However, no one is buying it, it costs almost the same as the BV300 and 90% of people would rather have that.
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  15. #30
    apriliaforum expert PSolk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
    I'm not the one who's biased here - the owners usually are.
    Anyways, I'm assuming you'll disagree with everything I wrote, so you don't need to reply back, I'm here to learn about the differences
    between the Burgman and Mana CVTs, since those 2 bikes are high on my list of what I'd like to own next and not to talk about where
    I work at.

    Also, I don't use Facebook.
    Why would a bike that is so riddled with problems as you make out and has a bunch of complaining owners be high up on your list of bikes you would like to own next? You have already made your mind up about the Mana and apparently Aprilia/Piaggio in general, you do NOTHING here but bash their reliability and quality yet you want one? I am lost...
    Oscar Wilde: "I don't want to go to Heaven; none of my friends are there."

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    RSV4 Factory OZ wheels, RSV4 Sachs adjustable Forks, RSV4 brembo 100mm monobloc brakes, RSV4 Factory Rotors, Pilot Road 2 Spec B tires, HyperPro Lowered Suspension, Leo Vince Exhaust, HID Hi/Lo lights,Carbon Front Fender, Carbon LED mirrors, Carbon Heel-guards, cut rear tail, DD Aluminum brake lever, Frame Sliders, Puig Chin Fairing, Rear Hugger, Kaoko Throttle Lock, MFW adjustable footpegs, Custom Painted Wheels/Rotors/Brakes Valentine One Radar, voltmeter, Tach, removed evap can, and lots o decals

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