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Thread: Does Mana uses the SECVT of Suzuki

  1. #1
    apriliaforum Member
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    Does Mana uses the SECVT of Suzuki

    Hello.

    I read in the internet that Aprilia Mana uses an electronically controlled CVT made under the licence of Suzuki.

    If this is true, please take a look at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatBox.htm#PECVT

    wherein an alternative electronically controlled CVT is presented:




    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    No it doesn't. The system is an 'In House' design and I would think, (From preliminary research. Ie a quick stab on Google! ) predates the Suzuki system which, incidentally, looks like a lot more hard work.

    Yes, I'm biased,

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  3. #3
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    Hello pete roper.

    Quote from http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+CVT+Info :

    "Burgman 650 CVT The Burgman CVT is a unique* design amongst motorcycles /scooters. It differs from traditional scooter Variator transmissions (such as used on the other Burgman models including the 250 and 400) in that it uses computerised control for varying the width (and consequently the height/diameter at which the CVT belt rides in the pulley) of its primary pulley. The secondary pulley uses a conventional spring mechanism for varying the pulley width –at a certain rotation speed of the belt, the belt literally tries to pull itself deeper into the pulley groove thus applying pressure against the spring until the second pulley reaches its maximum width (note: there may also be centripetal force at play causing the spring to unwind and the pulley sides to separate.

    ******************

    (Only the Aprilia Mana (external link)has an electronic CVT, and it has the exact same CVT as the 650 because it is licensed from Suzuki.)"

    ******************

    Who is right?

    In any case, do you have some link for a technical paper wherein the Magna electronic CVT is presented?

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  4. #4
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Nope, but I've pulled 'em both apart and while they are similar they are in no way identical. (I only did one Burgman and that was purely from curiosity.) if a licence fee was paid I'm sure there were legal reasons but the two systems are not identical.

    Pete
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  5. #5
    apriliaforum Member
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    Hello Pete.

    So, may I suppose that the Aprilia Mana has not a variator?

    That the CVT of the Mana controls the effective diameter of the front pulley by a "screw shaft" that rotates by an electric motor through a number of intermediate gears? Are the two of them plastic?

    That it has, in the front pulley side, a pair of big roller bearings that receive all the thrust force applied to the slide sheave of the front pulley?

    That the Mana has in its CVT a sensor for the position of the moving sheave of the front pulley?

    That it uses a composite V-belt (made of a big number of metallic "H" shape blocks and a pair of tension members)?

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  6. #6
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    No screw thread like the Suzuki' the threaded part is part of the front pulley. Take a look at my belt replacement photo-essay pinned at the top of this board for a look at what the 'Insides' of the system looks like.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    No screw thread like the Suzuki' the threaded part is part of the front pulley. Take a look at my belt replacement photo-essay pinned at the top of this board for a look at what the 'Insides' of the system looks like. Pete
    Thank you Pete.

    I think the biggest difference from the Suzuki Burgman is in the V-belt.

    The V-belt of Burman's SECVT consists of aluminum "H-shaped" blocks and rubber tension members (reinforced by metal load bearing cords).

    The V-belt of the Aprilia Mana "seems" to me as a conventional CVT V-belt.

    Your objections about the PatBox CVT?

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  8. #8
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    No objections, I'm just very passionate about the Mana, I love its simplicity.

    Pete
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    No objections, I'm just very passionate about the Mana, I love its simplicity. Pete
    Hello Pete.

    As you write, you love Mana's (CVT) simplicity.

    Sorry for insisting, but I have to ask:

    Suppose the PatBox (which is still a theory, an idea, "thin air") is as functional and as reliable as the CVT of Mana.

    If you had to manufacture them, which is the simpler?

    Thank you
    Manolis Pattakos

  10. #10
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    No idea, I'm a mechanic not a production engineer but plastic reduction gears have to be cheaper than a worm drive to manufacture.

    Pete
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  11. #11
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    Thank you Pete.

    So we need an engineer.

    It will be interesting if an engineer (from this forum or, better, from Aprilia) makes a comparison between the SECVT of Suzuki / Aprilia and the Electronically-controlled PatBox, in terms of:

    functionality,

    simplicity,

    cost,

    reliability,

    friction,

    weight,

    V-belt loading, etc.


    Wouldn't it be significant for Aprilia's prestige to stop paying royalties to Suzuki?

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  12. #12
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    For simplicity I would eliminate the automatic variator and replace it with a commercial variator with a control shaft to change speeds. I have used those on high powered industrial machines that run two or three production shifts a day and will go for years before they need a belt change. They also have an industry standard Zerk fitting on the unit to allow for quick and easy lubrication. They can be setup with a pedal, crank or servo to adjust the speed as the operator requires real time while the units are running. No extra complexity of additional belts, guides or rollers to over ride the main system. Why some love to create complexity with add-on engineering for issues that were solved reliably long ago in the industrial areana is beyond me.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockynv View Post
    For simplicity I would eliminate the automatic variator and replace it with a commercial variator with a control shaft to change speeds. I have used those on high powered industrial machines that run two or three production shifts a day and will go for years before they need a belt change. They also have an industry standard Zerk fitting on the unit to allow for quick and easy lubrication. They can be setup with a pedal, crank or servo to adjust the speed as the operator requires real time while the units are running. No extra complexity of additional belts, guides or rollers to over ride the main system. Why some love to create complexity with add-on engineering for issues that were solved reliably long ago in the industrial areana is beyond me.
    Hello Rockynv.

    From what I see in the Internet, the SECVT of Suzuki is regarded the state-of-the-art CVT for scooters / bikes.

    Are, the CVT's you are talking about, better than Suzuki's SECVT?

    It would be good if you had some drafts or photos to explain your post. Now I only read how perfect "these" (which?) CVT's are.

    On the other hand, if the industrial CVT's are so good, why Suzuki made the SECVT?

    And why Aprilia keeps paying royalties to Suzuki for using it?

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  14. #14
    apriliaforum Junkie Cortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manolis8 View Post
    Thank you Pete.

    I think the biggest difference from the Suzuki Burgman is in the V-belt.

    The V-belt of Burman's SECVT consists of aluminum "H-shaped" blocks and rubber tension members (reinforced by metal load bearing cords).

    The V-belt of the Aprilia Mana "seems" to me as a conventional CVT V-belt.

    Your objections about the PatBox CVT?

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos
    Is Burgman's belt more expensive by any chance?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
    Is Burgman's belt more expensive by any chance?
    Discount shops have the belt for the 650 for as low as $324.42. The primary pulley is about $700 and the secondary around $625. If your mess up the drive faces you could be looking at $2,000 or more worth of parts plus whatever the labor comes to. Its not for the faint of heart when something goes wrong.

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