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Thread: Fun with mapping.

  1. #31
    apriliaforum expert
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    I'm sorry. You make a statement (with zero evidence to back you up) that all the people out there with PCV & A/T's on their 8v Griso's with positive results are all ignorant and their bikes are massively over fueled and it is up to me to prove you wrong?
    I fear I have fallen into an intellectual argument with an unarmed man.
    I do not come to this site for serious technical discussion about Guzzi's because there is none here. As I do come here for serious technical discussions about Aprilia XV's (there is plenty) I think I need to back away from this one before I say something I shouldn't. You remind me of someone who was banned from the v11lemans site a while back. He was an idiot (crap, there it starts). I'm out.

    Oh, and I did not believe that the world would end as there was no tangible evidence that it would.

  2. #32
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    Please don't run off. You think I'm an idiot because I'm unarmed? Sir, your only argument is that there are plenty of happy users, and therefore the Griso/PCV marriage must be OK? Please allow me to tell you why it's no good.

    In simple terms, the PCV sits between the ECU and the injectors, intercepts the injector triggers and provides triggers based on its own map. With the addition of the AT and wideband sensor, the fueling is trimmed to a programmed AFR. OK?

    Now, with respect to the Griso, the right header is longer than the left in a stock exhaust. This means that due to scavenging effects and pressure waves, at certain RPM, the right cylinder requires different fuelling to the left to maintain the same mixture or combustion in both cylinders. This may only be a difference in the injector pulse-width of a few hundred microseconds. The Guzzi engineers used a delta-fuel map to allow for this. Still with me?

    Enter the PCV. The PCV has no delta-fuel, and only uses a single channel sensor to trim the map. As the the ECU no longer controls the fuelling, the right cylinder never receives the correct fuel. The single wideband sensor samples the exhaust and the AT tries to compensate, but it can never get it correct because the sampled exhaust is a combination of two different combustion mixtures. Do you understand?

    The end result is over-fuelling. Usually, the left cylinder is way over fuelled, and the right is just over fuelled. The bike runs beautifully smooth and a lot cooler. It seems very nice. Meanwhile, the extra fuel gets into the oil and washes your bores and makes your oil less oily. Your plugs get very sooty.

    I have had this bad experience with my Griso and the PCV, so I know this is a fact. I am not a dullard, and many things were tried to fix it, changes to the map etc. Experienced and knowledgable persons tried to help me to no avail. The only fix was to remove it.


    Sir, if you cannot see the above as being a compelling argument to cease the use of the PCV on the Griso, I can do no more and I leave you to your ways and wish you well.

    Enjoy your journey.
    Last edited by GuzziOrDeath; 11-20-2013 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #33
    apriliaforum expert DaveNZ's Avatar
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    I did 650 k today on the griso, i took 3 auckland friends on sports bikes thru the forgotten highway an the griso performed floorlessly, ive ground through the steel arm you use to push the stand out, i think ground clearance is more off an issue than perfect fueling, allthough i would like both, the griso 8v is a sensational motorcycle, corner speed corner speed corner speed, keep the momentum and it will run with anything, i love it, i traded my v4 in on a multi, i wouldnt part with my 8v, just ride it guys techical data is great if you have the time, but i just ride the arse off mine as is.

  4. #34
    apriliaforum expert SF2DieHard's Avatar
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    It took me a little while to get my front end dialed in but now that I have I am loving my Griso tons.
    Pardon me while I go rip money out of my wife's hands.

    DM
    #1 Forum Magic Missile Caster

    "I rode a Griso at when I used to work for Aprilia City in Melbourne. Probably the nicest bike ever" - Cosaro

    1972 Laverda SF 750
    2007 Moto Guzzi Griso 1100
    2003 Moto Guzzi California Titanium 1100 - for sale

  5. #35
    apriliaforum expert OZSLR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNZ View Post
    just ride it guys techical data is great if you have the time, but i just ride the arse off mine as is.
    Could not have put it better myself! There are dedicated Guzzi sites/forums to foster these technical contests, no need to pollute another.
    2013 Tuono APRC ABS
    1982 LeMans Mk3

    Always leave people better than you found them!

    The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is today!

  6. #36
    apriliaforum expert SF2DieHard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZSLR View Post
    Could not have put it better myself! There are dedicated Guzzi sites/forums to foster these technical contests, no need to pollute another.
    guzzitech comes to mind. complete with it's own forum. useful but this one is more entertaining.
    #1 Forum Magic Missile Caster

    "I rode a Griso at when I used to work for Aprilia City in Melbourne. Probably the nicest bike ever" - Cosaro

    1972 Laverda SF 750
    2007 Moto Guzzi Griso 1100
    2003 Moto Guzzi California Titanium 1100 - for sale

  7. #37
    apriliaforum expert Gabro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuzziOrDeath View Post
    As the the ECU no longer controls the fuelling,
    not true.

    the ECU still have the command, but injectors opening time are altered by the PCV prior to reach the injectors.
    so it means the left and right cylinder injection time still retain the "unbalace" coming from the ECU delta-fuel map.
    Mapping a PC in non-advanced mode, and with only one lambda probe, is like mapping the ECU mai fuel table only.

    Problem with autotune is that the autotune IS NOT so "auto". it's very difficult to be sharply used for fine mapping. It require a proper riding style to be effective. It's not a simple "plug the tool in and ride", as dynojet advertise.
    Aprilia bikes ECU tuning and reflashes since 2004!
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  8. #38
    apriliaforum expert Dan M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZSLR View Post
    Could not have put it better myself! There are dedicated Guzzi sites/forums to foster these technical contests, no need to pollute another.
    It is a pattern.
    07 Tuono

  9. #39
    apriliaforum expert pokeyjoe's Avatar
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    It's irritating. Same discussion - different forum.
    ___________________
    John

  10. #40
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Sorry, I thought it would be of interest.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabro View Post
    not true.

    the ECU still have the command, but injectors opening time are altered by the PCV prior to reach the injectors.
    so it means the left and right cylinder injection time still retain the "unbalace" coming from the ECU delta-fuel map.
    Mapping a PC in non-advanced mode, and with only one lambda probe, is like mapping the ECU mai fuel table only.

    Problem with autotune is that the autotune IS NOT so "auto". it's very difficult to be sharply used for fine mapping. It require a proper riding style to be effective. It's not a simple "plug the tool in and ride", as dynojet advertise.

    Yes & no. The PCV does as you say, time it's injector pulses based in signals from the ECU, but it uses it own map to calculate the pulse width and it ignores the pulse width times from the ECU. Therefore, the right cylinder still never receives the correct amount of fuel, and with this unbalance in the fuel, you get an incorrect AFR being sensed by the autotune, and it trims incorrectly, over fuelling. That is why the fuelling can never be correct.

    Your right, it is like running with the main fuel map only, in which case it runs rich.


    Oh yeah, that PCV is definitely not plug & play.
    Last edited by GuzziOrDeath; 11-25-2013 at 03:56 PM.

  12. #42
    apriliaforum prov-nov
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokeyjoe View Post
    It's irritating. Same discussion - different forum.
    Apologies. I think it's important.

  13. #43
    apriliaforum Junkie Scot p's Avatar
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    Keep it going Pete..

    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    Sorry, I thought it would be of interest.

    Pete
    Yep its of interest, if people are not interested why bother reading the thread....

    Anyway please keep up the good work, when You have a map dialed in I will have to take a ride south so you can work your majik on my little white bike...

    To take this on a minor tangent, with a custom map is there any hope of geting a griso to run nice with a stubby pipe ? or even under sump, just toying with ideas..

    cya
    Scot.
    And Sliiiiiiide.

  14. #44
    apriliaforum expert Hellgate's Avatar
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    For what it's worth I'm interested as there are so many hours in a day to read forums.

    Besides, if I joined a Guzzi forum it would take years for me to build any respect at all. I mean look how long it took me to garner any respect at all here. Geez..
    Pete

  15. #45
    apriliaforum expert Dan M's Avatar
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    Nothing on you Pete. I've just noticed here and elsewhere the same couple of experts pop up seemingly just to argue with you.
    Feeling stalked?
    07 Tuono

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