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Thread: Fun with mapping.

  1. #16
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    The biggest problem with your position, Pete, about a wide band lambda sensor not being useful on the 8 valve motor is the O2 sensor that the factory uses stock to adjust fueling. It is hard to see how a cheap O2 sensor works great but a better more expensive one gives bad readings. I am sorry you were not able to make Todd's kit work on your bike. But there are more than a few people who have been able to make Todd's kit work. So clearly good results can be had with it. If you do not want the AutoTune O2 sensor to be a factor in the fueling at any given rpm and throttle position you can make it fixed fueling in that range. It is very versatile and so easy almost anybody can figure it out. Is it the only way to improve fueling? No. But it is the easiest I have yet seen.
    And it is funny to hear someone who has long claimed that there is nothing wrong with the way the Guzzi motor fuels raving about the gains he has seen with brand X fueling modifier. Nothing personal there, just saying....

  2. #17
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    There is nothing wrong with the stock factory mapping. I've never said it couldn't be improved on, I have found though on all the PCV/ATequipped bikes I've dealt with that use the W5AM controller that they over fuel dreadfully. For that reason I don't recommend the system, particularly with the 8V. If other people want to use it? Fine by me.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  3. #18
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    I suggest that if there is nothing wrong with the stock factory mapping that it could not be improved upon. Perhaps what you mean is that the stock mapping is good enough. But "good enough" is a relative term. Depending on a variety of things, including how you ride and how picky you are, "good enough" may not be enough for some people. Then there is the specter of changed intake and exhaust parameters which may further increase the need for fueling revisions (if it does not than it likely didn't really change the intake or exhaust flow).
    But that is not my main point.
    The more important point is that you have said that because of the nature of the 8V motor a wide band o2 sensor does not work on it. But yet the factory sends them out stock with a narrow band sensor to trim the fueling. The question I raised was how could a narrow band sensor work, which is little more than a switch that toggles between rich and lean, but a wide band sensor gets confused by the excess overlap (or whatever it is about the 8v motor) and can't be used to trim fuel (which is all the AutoTune is using it to do). That seems at odds. I could see ( but not really agree with) your earlier assumption/assessment that the 8v motor had a lot of overlap and could not run correctly without sufficient "back pressure". I can't imagine that a motor could have that much overlap and still pass emissions. Plus, I have seen far too many extreme motors built, with way more overlap than the 8v motor likely has, run just fine with little "back pressure". But I can't easily question that line of thinking and say it doesn't work. The idea that a wide band sensor can't work when a narrow band sensor does for trimming fuel is easy to shot holes in and clearly does not make sense.
    Can you cock up the fueling with either tool? Sure, absolutely.
    I also pointed out that the PCV and software is stupidly easy to install and use, while the GuzziDiag software is less so. Another point to add there is that the PCV & A/T can easily be unplugged if you cock it up while the GuzziDiag software not so.
    I think both tools are very cool and each has its advantages and dis-advantages. And while I don't always agree with Todd I did also see the irony in you posting about the benefits of the GuzziDiag software.
    Oh, and I also do not have a dog in this fight. I have no connection to either side. I also respect you, Pete. You are probably the most knowledgeable person I "know" (clearly I don't really claim to know you) when it comes to Guzzi's. I just find your stance on this a bit ironic and question some of your assumptions/conclusions about the new 8v motor.
    It is fine in my opinion to change your mind/stance on an issue. But when you do I think it makes sense to make that change apply not only to what you do in the future but to also apply it to things you said and have done in the past. i.e., if modifying fueling is now a good thing than it always was a good thing. It is okay to admit it. It is a sign of character.

    Oh, and "reading the plugs" is not nearly as useful now with pump gas as it was in the old days or with race fuel. You do not get the clear patterns and colors that you used to and with seasonal changes to the mix that pump gas has the colors and pattern may change with it. It is still useful and can help show you where to go, but outside of being way off one way or the other (detonation is still easy to see) you can't fine tune FI that way. And if you actually want to know what is going on in the combustion chamber than what you really need to do is pull the head and read the top of the piston. I will do that for a race bike but reading the exhaust combined with dyno and seat of the pants analysis is more than good enough for a street bike in my opinion. But to each his own.

  4. #19
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    I've covered my beliefs about the way the 'Nuovo 8V' works on numerous occasions so there is no point in going through it again. That's fine, we'll have to agree to differ,

    As for the belief that the PCV/AT is easy to fit and use? I couldn't get it to work no matter how I tried! Luckily that need was made moot after the launch of the 68S map. As far as I'm concerned Guzzidiags writer program is a far easier sollution. If you mess up? Simply stick the original map back in! What could be easier. I think you, like Todd, misinterpret a lot of what I say, you're just a lot less bellicose about it.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  5. #20
    apriliaforum expert jrflanne's Avatar
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    My Griso runs shitbags better after getting a Rexxer map. If it wasn't for that, I would have gotten rid of the bike.
    Bikes:
    2007.5 Tuono-Black, with 1102cc's of micah's badness!
    2012 Griso-Silver and black, Agostini pipe, some carbon bits.
    2006 Vespa GT200-bitubo suspension all around, Malossi big-bore, head and cam, Akrapovic pipe, all put together by Micah.

    gone 2002 Caponord-Oyster gray (as faithful as a hound dog)
    gone Futura-Red (on the AF1 showroom floor. Get some.)

    The more I learn about people, the more I appreciate rocks.

  6. #21
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    I have no experience of the Rexxer option so I can't comment. I have ample experience of the PCV/AT setup to believe it is less than ideal for use with the Nuovo Hi-Cam. Other people's opinions may differ, that's fine but browbeating me won't get me to resile from my position.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  7. #22
    apriliaforum expert Hellgate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrflanne View Post
    My Griso runs shitbags better after getting a Rexxer map. If it wasn't for that, I would have gotten rid of the bike.
    That's why I had the Stelvio Rexxer'd before I even picked it up. I'm very happy with the throttle response. That said it would be nice to able to tweak things.

    However....on the Buell I used a similar software to pull the flash. It was all hexadecimals. Micah and I scratched our heads and said to hell with it.
    Pete

  8. #23
    apriliaforum expert SF2DieHard's Avatar
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    I have to arm wrestle my wife for money!!!
    we keep spending it on her smallblock instead of my Griso.
    #1 Forum Magic Missile Caster

    "I rode a Griso at when I used to work for Aprilia City in Melbourne. Probably the nicest bike ever" - Cosaro

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  9. #24
    apriliaforum expert Tdawg's Avatar
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    Fun with mapping.

    I've had a remap with one of the ones that changes the bin files. Don't recall which one but it's very much improved. Never tried the 68 map but the 03 was poor. One thing I like about this remap is it doesn't require the additional expense of a box and remap. Just some shop time.

  10. #25
    apriliaforum expert jrflanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SF2DieHard View Post
    I have to arm wrestle my wife for money!!!
    we keep spending it on her smallblock instead of my Griso.
    Oh, just stop it!
    Bikes:
    2007.5 Tuono-Black, with 1102cc's of micah's badness!
    2012 Griso-Silver and black, Agostini pipe, some carbon bits.
    2006 Vespa GT200-bitubo suspension all around, Malossi big-bore, head and cam, Akrapovic pipe, all put together by Micah.

    gone 2002 Caponord-Oyster gray (as faithful as a hound dog)
    gone Futura-Red (on the AF1 showroom floor. Get some.)

    The more I learn about people, the more I appreciate rocks.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuzziMoto View Post
    But Oh, and "reading the plugs" is not nearly as useful now with pump gas as it was in the old days or with race fuel. You do not get the clear patterns and colors that you used to and with seasonal changes to the mix that pump gas has the colors and pattern may change with it. It is still useful and can help show you where to go, but outside of being way off one way or the other (detonation is still easy to see) you can't fine tune FI that way.

    I respectfully disagree. Combustion is the same whether FI or carb - the fuel/air ring means the same thing, the spark advance mark, the insulator colour, etc etc. The beauty of FI is that control can be exact, not a best guess or reasonably close will do as with a carb.


    Fuel may be an issue where your are, but in some parts of the world it can be mundanely the same every time, or so close it makes no difference.


    The stock map may be 'good enough', but it's a compromise to meet emission standards and to be useable everywhere. In places where we are not forced to use ethanol based fuels, GuzziDiag allows us to create maps that allow the bike to perform well with excellent fuel economy.


    The PCV may work well with the older 2 valve engines, but I agree with Roper that it's not for the 8V, especially a stock Griso. The lambda sensor may allow it to function and pass emission standards, but at the end of the day the Griso is a result of design first, engineer later. A single lambda sensor on an engine of unequal exhaust lengths is a bad idea. The right cylinder requires a delta-fuel map to compensate for it. The PCV with a single channel Autotune can not work well for the Griso. It may be fantastic on a Stelvio or other models with dual sensors, but for the Griso it should never considered.

  12. #27
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    I did not say you can't use plug readings. I simply pointed out that it is not as useful with FI and does not work as well with modern fuel as it used to. As even you said in your post, "The beauty of FI is that control can be exact, not a best guess or reasonably close will do as with a carb". That exact tuning cannot be accomplished by plug readings.
    Tuning a carb means making changes that affect relatively broad areas of the rpm range and/or throttle position.
    Tuning FI allows you to make narrowly focused adjustments to a very small area of the rpm range and/or throttle position.
    Reading plugs give a general gauge of how the fueling is, when combined with carbs allows you to make corresponding general changes in the jetting of the carb.
    With FI, if you can determine that a a given rpm/throttle position the motor is going lean or rich, even by a small amount, you can correct the fueling in that narrow range without affecting the fueling in neighboring areas. You can not do that with carbs or by reading the plugs. Neither has the required resolution to achieve that. Doing so first requires something that can tell you specifically if it is lean or rich at a given rpm/throttle position (that is where the wideband sensor or other form of gas analyzer comes in) combined with the ability to make said narrowly focused changes (which FI allows you to do and carbs do not). So while you could tune FI with reading plugs, it would not be anywhere near the level that FI can be set up to. And it would not be as good as it would have been when fuels made more indicative patterns and colors on the plugs. The lack of lead and other additives that have been deemed bad, plus the inclusion of others yet to get that designation, has reduced the clarity of reading the plugs.
    And modern pump fuels tend to change their formulations between summer and winter so that they can work well as the climate changes. If you do not live somewhere that the climate changes, or you live in a 3rd world country, that may not be an issue for you. But there is still the issue of variability between one brand and another as well as the differences between areas if you ride from one supplier territory to another. But the fundamental issue with reading the plugs is it does not offer the precision that gas reading does. It never did and likely never will. Without that precision you cannot set up FI as well as you can with it. Sorry.

    Keep in mind that the Griso, stock, is built to pass emissions by using the stock narrow band sensor to tune the FI. And it appears to work well enough that some well respected people have stated over and over that there is nothing wrong with the fueling stock. Now, I tend to put that down to differences in opinion of what proper fueling means to different people. But either way the stock set up with a narrow band sensor seems to work well. To suggest that replacing that narrow band sensor with a more precise wide band sensor results in a system that does not work seems a bit far fetched and would require additional justification to be considered seriously. Being a single lambda sensor being shared for two pipes is not unusual and has been done for a lot of applications. It lacks the ability to adjust the different cylinders separately but that is the way the stock system works and there is no reason that method would not continue to work when used with the PCV & A/T. They also offer a dual channel A/T for systems that have separate lambda probes per cylinder. I can't see that being required on a Guzzi for anything other than stricter emissions controls, but it could be worth it. But if one sensor is good enough for meeting emissions and proper running stock than it seems that it would be good enough with the A/T.

    Yes, the stock map is a compromise. It is a standard map designed to meet emissions first and performance second. It can be improved on. GuzziDiag is a very cool way to improve on that but it does require a good bit more from the user or taking it to someone who can make it work for you. The PCV & A/T set up is much easier to install and program, and while it is not 100% idiot proof it is very easy to do and offers excellent support. And to be clear, it is silly to imply that it can't work with the 8V Griso as there are more than a few people who have had excellent success doing exactly that. Are there people who were unable to make it work, undoubtedly. But that would have to be put down to the individual user as many others do not have that problem. If it did not work it due to some weird design characteristic it would not work for anybody yet it does work for many.
    Is the GuzziDiag solution better than the PCV & A/T? Well, if you have the resources to make it work I think it is. But the PCV & A/T is very easy to use and requires fewer resources to make work. It also has less risk as it can just be unplugged if you screw up. You are not making any changes to the ECU itself. The GuzziDiag approach has greater risk as you are actually changing the mapping in the ecu itself. If you find out half way through flashing the ECU that you have no idea what you are doing...well, it is too late to turn back now.
    Don't get me wrong, I think GuzziDiag is way cool. But it is not the only way to adjust your fueling. There are several other options including the PCV & A/T option. I like the do it yourself options like GuzziDiag and PCV & A/T. Both have been shown to work. GuzziDiag has way more potential, but PCV & A/T is way easier with the simple wiring and easy to use GUI.

  13. #28
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    At least we agree on one thing - the PCV is very simple and can be removed easily, and is perfect for those who don't understand or have a clue about what they're doing, provided they get someone else to do it.

    There's no additional hardware or wiring required for GuzziDiag. It's plug and play. GuzziDiag is certainly not for neophytes, and if you don't have an idea of what you are doing, please stay away. However, if something happens like you suggest, and you're halfway through flashing your ECU and suddenly realize you don't have a clue, it's certainly not too late to turn back. Simply reflash your original map. AFAIK, GuzziDiag has not to this date bricked an ECU.

    I am not being silly or far fetched, I am in earnest when I suggest it shouldn't be used for the Griso. I am not opposed to exhaust gas analysis, it works very well, but it should NOT be the sole way to adjust your fuelling for this bike.


    All those happy Griso owners need to pull their plugs and check their oil. If every single one of them comes back and tells me their plugs look good and there's no fuel in the oil, I'll backflip. Every one, not just those using ethanol fuels.

    Until then, I'll decry the PCV for the Griso and accept that you're simply wrong.

  14. #29
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    You are free to accept that I am simply wrong. But that does not make you right. Nor does it make me wrong.
    As said, there are plenty of people out there who have used the PCV & A/T set up on there Griso's with great results. To say that it does not work or that it should not be used on one is to fly in the face of reality. But fly away....
    Just like GuzziDiag, the PCV & A/T only does what you tell it to. If you tell either system to make your bike run rich I reckon it will. But that is not the fault of the system.
    And the PCV & A/T is incredibly easy to use, but there do appear to be a few people out there who are unable to figure out how to hook it up and make it work. But it is the easiest option.

  15. #30
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    You keep falling back on the argument that many happy owners means the PCV is a good thing for the 8V, and to say that it should not be used flys in the face of reality. Oh, the mob mentality sure is real. Millions believed that world would end with the new millenium, but here we are. My argument, Sir, is that it simply may mean there a lots of ignorant owners, along with your fine self, whom appear to have drunk the PCV kool aid, and, keeping your blinders on while discounting those telling you there is an issue does not make you right.


    I want proof of all those happy campers with wonderfully well fuelled Griso's to put up and make me retract what I'm saying. Prove me wrong.

    Do you own a Griso 8V? With a PCV and AT?

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