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Thread: Fun with mapping.

  1. #1
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Fun with mapping.

    In the last week or so I've been collaborating with one of my customers who's a computer nerd developing new maps for our 8V Grisos using Guzzidiag/tuner pro. The results are pretty impressive. We haven't got it 100% yet! we're still chasing a full throttle flat spot between 4,000 and 5,800. Up to about 90% Mark has nailed it, it pulls like a trooper from nothing to 'Fuck me dead!' fast in all gears but open it up that last little bit and it bogs, I reckon it needs more fuel at that point but we may be going the wrong way. Spark map is basically almost identical to the 68S.

    I managed to get it almost vertical by mistake pulling into traffic after filling up yesterday! No skill on my part, I just got everything right by mistake and up she came! You get pretty blasé about stuff like that of you ride a Tuono regularly but a great porker like a Griso? Good grief! I well nigh shat meself! .

    Anyway, anyone with any interest Guzzidiag is downloadable for free. You need to buy a couple of cables and the reader/writer programs and Tunerpro which allows you to write your own maps costs about $120 I think. Best tool I've added to my box for years and yes, you can overwrite any factory map with any other and go forwards and backwards, something you can't do with the factory software.

    Great tool, great fun!

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert Hellgate's Avatar
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    Very cool Pete!

    Is this compatible with my Rexxer flash, ir in addition to?
    Pete

  3. #3
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Nothing else needed.the Rexxer system I think the supplier purchases downloads of maps designed by Rexxer and pops them in to your ECU doesn't it? I dunno how much option you have for fine tuning the product?

    The Guzzidiag you have full flexibility and control. If the Rexxer is simply an uploaded bin. file you an use reader to pull it out and store it, then use Tunerpro to dick about with it. Save that alongside the original map in your laptop and then upload it to the ECU with the writer program. If you don't like it? Overwrite it with the previous map you have stored on your laptop or tweak it some more.

    Mark is now working on his twentieth iteration for the Griso8V, we're very nearly there. Top end is now great. Its just the last 10% of throttle between about 4,000-5,750 that he hasn't got perfect.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  4. #4
    Let me know when you get a map for the California 1400 that has a smooth idle...
    2014 California 1400 Touring ABS in White
    Eldorado w/Automatic Trans circa 1972 in Black
    Looking for California 1400 only discussions:
    guzzicalifornia.forumcircle.com

  5. #5
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    Any idea if Norge 8v available? Numbers indicate mine is roller tappets if that will affect map.

  6. #6
    apriliaforum expert Tdawg's Avatar
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    Fun with mapping.

    I've heard of a Norge being done. The tool isn't bike specific and it's customizable.

    The riders throttle hand will need some recalibration. The change to thrust is remarkable imagine smooth throttle at low speed maneuvers.
    Also adjusting for corn burning
    Last edited by Tdawg; 11-14-2013 at 02:29 PM.

  7. #7
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    Pete lambda still on?

  8. #8
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    So let me get this straight... the same person that has been arguing with me online that stock bikes/mapping are the best thing you can ever have, is now endorsing a product where the average Joe can screw with his mapping (because it's now cheap or free) using what means of corrective data? Seat of pants? Do tell Pete, how are these maps being built?

    Also to note, global fuels are significantly different, so beware in sharing/using maps, especially if no air/fuel data is being used to build corrected maps.

    Mike, haven't seen you on my Forum in forever. I have maps for every Guzzi (including the Cal 1400, however smooth idle of a single throttle body and rubber mount motor will never allow)... all developed using wide band sensors with Dynojet. It works, despite Pete's slathering in his online travels. I've been enjoying this technology for years now, and it offers incredible benefits.

    If you want brilliant Guzzi fueling, contact me. It's not free or cheap, but it works.
    Last edited by guzzitech; 11-14-2013 at 12:35 PM.
    Todd at
    GuzziTech.com
    GT-Rx® Performance Products
    SoCal Guzzi since 2000

  9. #9
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Sorry Todd, I have yet to ride a PCV/AT equipped Guzzi that worked properly. The fact that the system relies on a WBO sensor to trim unfortunately means that on the 8V engine it will over-fuel horribly at some points. I know you can't understand that and I'm sorry but its the way it is. As for the factory mapping? In my opinion up until recently if the bikes are set up correctly it has been fine. Note I've never claimed that the factory mapping is perfect. What I have always said is that getting huge increases in performance isn't going to happen! There are currently some issues I believe are being caused by PADS which is why I'm now experimenting with Guzzidiag, its a necessity thing and it does offer some major advantages which I'm afraid to say I've never seen with the Dynotech product you sell at great expense!

    As to how results are assessed? Very easy. Read the plug and seat of pants initially. When I'm really close I'll spend money at the dyno but I won't be relying on EGA alone to read the mixture because on the 8V engine it isn't accurate. I have absolutely no interest in what is happening in the exhaust pipe, I want to know what's happening in the combustion chamber. With the amount of charge transition you get at certain RPM and throttle opening with the head design and cams of the 8V relying on EGA alone is foolish and dangerous.

    Pete
    Last edited by pete roper; 11-14-2013 at 02:18 PM.
    Professional Goat Burster.

  10. #10
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Cali idle is controlled by spark Mike. It'll be harder to smooth out.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  11. #11
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    OK, so seat of pants and plug reads (not very accurate with fuel injection) is much more accurate then a (last sold at) 45 million $ company, whose only business is fueling. One who not only has race bikes on the podium every weekend at the Pro level (and with big name Factory supported teams), but one who also has a World record holding 600cc I-4 at Bonneville. Got it.

    Every bike I've touched (remotely or in person) performs incredibly. If you couldn't detect that on mine when you rode it, your loss. It seems ironic that now that you've done it, it's magic. I've shown upwards of 10-20 hp gains on the dyno at wide open throttle on the 8Vs, and similar at partial throttle where you ride the most.

    If you've seen bikes that were improperly fueled, clearly something is wrong with the set up. Most all current Dyno operators use wide band sensors for mapping these days, the same one supplied with AutoTune. Top tuners such as Bazzazz are also using wide-band sensors for fuel mapping.. and even the factory uses an EGA, and crude narrow band sensors. This isn't my technology, so I claim no credit or feel as though I am just one (of many) who know how to use it properly. Last comment I'll make on this topic.

    I have 250k+ miles on PC'ed Guzzis; One-third of the time spent on race tracks, and the rest for those who know me, haven't been easy miles either. Not one problem.
    Last edited by guzzitech; 11-14-2013 at 03:53 PM.
    Todd at
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    GT-Rx® Performance Products
    SoCal Guzzi since 2000

  12. #12
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Yes Todd, you keep reciting this mantra. It doesn't make it correct. Despite what you may say there are many people who no longer contribute to your forum who have drifted away because they have found that your solution was problematic and ineffectual.

    Sorry? Reading plugs is not accurate with fuel injection? How so? Does the way the fuel is introduced effect the nature of its combustion in the extremely hostile environment of a combustion chamber? Please!

    Yes, EGA is a very useful tool. Its not the only tool and on a 'strange' motor like the Guzzi 8V relying on it alone is fraught with problems.

    By all means continue down your path. I wish you every success. I just think that your dogmatic attachment to a perceived orthodoxy is blinding you to its failings.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    Yes Todd, you keep reciting this mantra. It doesn't make it correct.
    Millions of $'s of this technology being circulated globally, very successfully, doesn't make it correct? OK, sure.
    Todd at
    GuzziTech.com
    GT-Rx® Performance Products
    SoCal Guzzi since 2000

  14. #14
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Not with that motor. I have often praised your work and recommended PC products on earlier bikes and other machines but for the W5AM equipped Guzzis and particularly the 8V I do not believe they are the best or even a good sollution. Your opinion differs. That's fine.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  15. #15
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaltR View Post
    Pete lambda still on?
    You can turn the Lambda sensor on or off, use it as you wish.

    I am not suggesting that everyone should use it and start playing with their mapping, far from it. I'm at the beginning of a learning curve. The thing is I haven't got a closed mind.

    Do remember that all or any alterations to the factory settings will void your warranty. Its also worth noting I have no dog in the FI tuning fight. I don't sell maps or products like map modifiers. If I do modify something I'll charge labour time only. If people want to experiment with the PCV/AT packages and Todd's ECU. Flashes? That's fine but given the insistence that fuels are so different the maps individuals can create with Guzzidiag won't work in different markets it seems a bit incongruous and inconsistent that what works for Guzzitech customers isn't effected by this?

    My own experience when I travelled the US by Griso in 2010 was that my US bike ran almost identically to my bike here using the 68S map I uploaded using my own tooling. While I'm sure fuel types will have an effect I feel that it is unlikely to be anywhere near as critical as has been suggested.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

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