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Thread: improving 05 mapping with tuneecu

  1. #76
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Borchert View Post
    I haven't looked at the TB in detail, but "rail" pressure cannot be measured unless there's a test port somewhere I haven't seen;
    Bob
    Banjo bolt adapter at pump the easiest place to tap into and measure pressure.


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    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  2. #77
    apriliaforum expert Argh Oh's Avatar
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    Been following this, my FPR is connected to air box. Recently balanced intake and replaced the (hopefully) last two original vac hoses, the ones used for vac testing. So, with recent plugs, the balancing seemed to smooth things a bit, starts bit better (also new batt, solenoid, clean terminals prior). My inclination is to think the FPR should go to intake but of course the vacuum varies wildly, obviously no plenum as a car, but how much vac could there be in the box? Seems to run just fine, mileage with mainly gentle riding about 43. While more would be better, no issues necessarily just curious about this. No Tune eec trial yet.
    01 Blue #84, 11/12 with: HeliBars, foam grips, 05 map, Borla cans (Replaced by 2" pipe)/stock silencer, derestricted, metal QD, dash socket, wiring mod. Me: Ford relay +10awg & grd, fuel pump rewire, FPR, vac hoses. Evap gone, CBR coils/harness+ Magnecor, clutch switch bypass. S.S. clutch & front line, RaceTech Gold fork, Cogent rebuilt Sachs, tapered head bearings. Added LED run lights/indicators/brake. All signals also run lights. All lights but Hi/park/brake on dash switch. Hi beam mod, vest plug, wiring block, blue dash SMD's/Red V meter, Tune IFT, PCIII gone. Stripped/polished rims, vented screen, rear petal disc. FH008 soldered DC plug/added grd/hard soldered AC. L/R dash indicator lights, RG frame/fork sliders, vented screen.

  3. #78
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    the vacuum value in the manifold depends on rpm and throttle position. During the inlet stroke there will be a strong pulse of negative pressure, the pressure pulse towards the FPR will however be smoothed out by the small diameter tube and the FPR reservoir chamber. In order to smoothen the pulse even better i installed 2x 2.5 mm restrictors in the vacuum tube towards the FPR.

    Generally the vacuum is approx 0.3 bars at idle and cruising, but almost ambient at full throttle. With a Fuel pressure of 3 bar the theoretic difference is approx 10 % (thuss 10% leaner at low loads). I thought the motor was running fine on rich mixture and 1 L 14 km fuel consumption. However my fuel consumption droppend from 1L 14 km to 1 L in 18 km after connectinmg the FPR to the manifold vacuum, much more then 10% and the engine was running even better. Co measurements from Motech also show the difference to be larger. The reason for this is not yet known.


    the IFT (idle fuel trim) is an mixture setting at idle and low loads. it should be set quitte accurate as it has a big effect on the way the motor is running. Iy you set it rich the engine will run fine but increase the fuel consumption. If its set to lean the engine will run rough below 3000 rpm and low loads. In your case i think its running rich, so i dont think you emmidiately have to run to the dealer to reset the IFT value . just try it first. i also did not reset the IFT value after changing the FPR connection.

  4. #79
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futura rider nl View Post
    Co measurements from Motech also show the difference to be larger. The reason for this is not yet known.
    It is known:

    • On this non-feedback application, fuel injector pulse-width (on time) is fixed by fuel map, so fuel trims are also fixed.
    • When pressure is increased (no vacuum to regulator), so too is fuel flow through injector, and since there is no feedback to alter trim, more fuel enters intake chamber with the same intake airflow as before, so air/fuel ratio drops and a rich condition occurs.
    • When pressure is decreased (vacuum applied to regulator), so too is fuel flow through the injector, hence a leaner a/f ratio occurs.
    • Were this a feedback application, injector time would be shortened to compensate for rich condition caused by unregulated high pressure.
    • You could view this by observing fuel trim in a set cell. With engine at, say, steady 4000 RPM, applying vacuum to regulator would create an automatic, positive correction in fuel trim values (ECU adding fuel to compensate for leaner condition).
    • Eliminating vacuum from regulator would create an automatic, negative correction in fuel trim values (ECU subtracting fuel to compensate for richer condition).
    • These changes would keep fuel flow into the chambers the same regardless fuel pressure as the system can compensate for the rich condition created by the 7-9 psi increase in unregulated pressure.
    • A fixed system--our system--cannot compensate, so flow increases, a/f ratio is corrupted, we smell it out our pipes and our fuel economy nosedives.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  5. #80
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    I have a hunch that a more free flowing exhaust does not help one bit with the fuel consumption without a serious change in the fuel map.
    With the 05 map and my stock exhaust I made once 420 km on one tank.
    With the Staintunes installed I had to make radical changes to the fuel map to come close to that.
    Less back pressure in the exhaust may have more unburnt fuel coming out of the exhaust during the valve overlap.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  6. #81
    apriliaforum expert Robert Borchert's Avatar
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    I'll have to do it as a complete package: update to the "05" map, plumb the FPR to an intake port, damped a wee bit, and run a proper FT adjustment using TuneECU and the Gunson's CO apparatus.

    AF1 has the super cool exhaust tap kit, nice looking assembly. The Gunson's CO tester has a digital display and it runs on 12v power. Perfect to mount temporarily on a tank bag. Then I can get some real world cruise trim numbers. Man, a dyno would be much simpler, but it should work.

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    Bob
    Last edited by Robert Borchert; 03-23-2013 at 07:33 PM. Reason: Update

  7. #82
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    I have a hunch that a more free flowing exhaust does not help one bit with the fuel consumption without a serious change in the fuel map.
    With the 05 map and my stock exhaust I made once 420 km on one tank.
    With the Staintunes installed I had to make radical changes to the fuel map to come close to that.
    Less back pressure in the exhaust may have more unburnt fuel coming out of the exhaust during the valve overlap.
    So your Staintunes with stock catalyst caused leaner running and reduced fuel economy?
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  8. #83
    apriliaforum expert Argh Oh's Avatar
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    This has been a very interesting thread, so time for an experiment. I'm going to re-plumb the FPR 3 different ways: 1-Restricted per nl, 2-Not restricted, 3-With a small plenum (an inline fuel filter). I can't help but think the plenum would help smooth the intake pulses, like a tank on a compressor in reverse. The vacuum would remain the same? It would still have to be higher than the air box can provide. I do wonder about a filter physically coming apart though... Time will tell as will my butt/ear dyno hopefully. May as well replace all the plastic fittings I can find too. If nothing else, it's all easily reversible. Only mods K&N air, unknown cans w/stock silencer.
    01 Blue #84, 11/12 with: HeliBars, foam grips, 05 map, Borla cans (Replaced by 2" pipe)/stock silencer, derestricted, metal QD, dash socket, wiring mod. Me: Ford relay +10awg & grd, fuel pump rewire, FPR, vac hoses. Evap gone, CBR coils/harness+ Magnecor, clutch switch bypass. S.S. clutch & front line, RaceTech Gold fork, Cogent rebuilt Sachs, tapered head bearings. Added LED run lights/indicators/brake. All signals also run lights. All lights but Hi/park/brake on dash switch. Hi beam mod, vest plug, wiring block, blue dash SMD's/Red V meter, Tune IFT, PCIII gone. Stripped/polished rims, vented screen, rear petal disc. FH008 soldered DC plug/added grd/hard soldered AC. L/R dash indicator lights, RG frame/fork sliders, vented screen.

  9. #84
    apriliaforum expert Robert Borchert's Avatar
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    It should work. i was thinking of making a dampening chamber for the vacuum source, since there really isn't an intake manifold per se, there's nothing but a boot and intake port.

    Years ago, I had plenty of choices on the shelf, when I blueprinted carburetors. I remember a handy little inline canister that looked much like a one-way valve that would be perfect...

    I thought of using a Kodak plastic film canister, the black-and-grey older style...but those have gone the way of the dodo. The idea is to smooth the pulses a bit, but still have a clean response (pressure transient) as the throttle status changes.

    Obviously, running without the port connected to intake was a "that'll do" solution, my question is whether it was originally omitted because of damping issues, and the map was changed to compensate for a fixed pressure, or if the map was indeed calibrated for a variable line pressure. Does someone here see if the Futura runs consistently rich at cruise? If the map allows a little enrichment as the throttle value rapidly advances, any flat spot may have been compensated for in software. If it runs acceptably well, they may have gone without the variable FPR's capability on this model.

    On the lighter side, if you're wondering what the "pinstriping" seen on my Futura's saddlebag might be, it's a reflection of the Mercedes 6.9 parked next to the bike, another project.

    Bob

  10. #85
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    I am not convinced the regulator vacuum source needs to be dampened, and I would defer to those with more knowledge and those who made this switch with good results, like futura rider nl above.

    I am curious about other V990 bikes, and I will look at my RSV Mille on Monday and see how it is plumbed.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  11. #86
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    It would be nice to hear from an aprilia expert on why it was plumbed this way, but I even wonder if any of them knows for certain.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  12. #87
    apriliaforum expert Robert Borchert's Avatar
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    You got that right, Motech! I wonder if because it has a unique ECU, if the production throttle body was added to the mix, and the enrichment deemed unnecessary- they simply dropped the vac line and used the resulting rail pressure.

    Headed back to the "salt mines" in a few minutes, shop is open Saturdays. Waiters are a pain, especially when service advisors have no clue of the delays that happen when spinning a wrench...

    Bob

  13. #88
    apriliaforum expert Stanleybobly's Avatar
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    Anyone have a picture or description how to replumb those lines.
    Mines is also plumbed at the airbox. But the dyno guy didn't noticed me anything that the co readings were high....

    sold: "01 Caponord |Flame Red|, Modlist done: Honda CBR600 RR Mosfet (FH008) Rectifier Mod, Brown Connector Mod
    now: "04 Caponord |Rally Raid| FH016 Mosfet R/R | GPR Titanium Exhaust|
    01 Futura [infinity blue]
    Caponord Stanleybobly style loomed MOSFET Rectifiers & Fuelline Kit FS

  14. #89
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanleybobly View Post
    Anyone have a picture or description how to replumb those lines.
    Mines is also plumbed at the airbox. But the dyno guy didn't noticed me anything that the co readings were high....
    Yours, mine, and everyone else who's not changed it from OE.

    Put a T in one of the hoses used to sync the TBs and hook in there.

  15. #90
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motech View Post
    So your Staintunes with stock catalyst caused leaner running and reduced fuel economy?
    Without changing the mapping it seems to have been running richer or less efficient as it has been difficult to reach the same mpg as with stock exhaust.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

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