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Thread: improving 05 mapping with tuneecu

  1. #46
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    Keeping in mind that we've had more than a few discussions over the last 10 years here how some of these bikes get great fuel mileage (mine) and some not so much. And this is not the 1st time that the fuel pressure regulator was suspect. I won't begin to guess why Aprilia did not to hook up the regulator to engine vacuum (and I'm guessing they are all that way as that's how the hose diagram is drawn). It sure would have been easy enough to do however. So my point was simple, if everything else is right, imo, it's a non-issue.

    As having a vac applied to that regulator will have its greatest effect at low RPMs, great, you'll lower fuel pressure and perhaps lean out the mix where it'll do the least for fuel mileage, at idle and small throttle openings. And do you know if applying a vac to that thing will result in too low a pressure at big throttle openings? Clearly, Aprilia did not want it regulated that way.

    So, go ahead and hook it up, it might help. But Imo, it's like adding a PC III to make changes over top of the ECU when it's far simpler to just make changes to the ECU.

    For starters, you guys should seek out some old posts of meanstrks. His bike also did not do all that well in the mileage contest. He used Tune ECU and leaned things out considerably so that now it's quite good.

    There's all manner of things that could cause the bike to run rich or just get crappy mileage beyond having a perceived too much pressure in the rail - a misreading motor temp sensor, TPS not zeroed properly, throttle bodies not synced well, vac leaks (yeah, we've all had 'em by now), even a weak charge system (including weak grounds) not feeding enough voltage to the coils to get a proper spark (for those fancy plugs). The original wire mod for the charge system produced a noticeable change on how my bike ran. Hell, maybe even a brake caliper hanging up or a chain that should have been binned years ago.

    Also, riding in cold temps (especially short trips) will reduce my mileage into the mid 30s. When it's warm, I don't even have to see 6th gear to get 45-48 mpg.

    On it goes. Let us know how this makes out.

  2. #47
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    My observation is that the Idle Fuel Trim (IFT) has a mucher higher impact on fuel consumption than what people think.
    It is also possible to set it really rich and the bike will feel smoother but MPG will drop.

    IFT is the only parameter which is set individually except vacuum synch (as far as I know) for each bike by Aprilia at production.

    If you have the possibility try to just drop the IFT value by 10 units and do a test run.
    If there are no big hesitations from the engine things are still O.K and MPG should increase accordingly.

    Another thing that has not been discussed much is the fuel regulator itself.
    Are there some parts in there which can detoriate due to ethanol and increase the fuel pressure?
    I now have the correct equipment to measure the fuel pressure so that will be done one day.
    My bike has not seen higher ethanol content than 5% so I expect to see the correct pressure of 3 bars.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  3. #48
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    Seems that there's a range at which the cooling fans come on from 200F (where mine come on and they turn off at 197F) to as much as 207 sometimes. That's gotta, at least in some part, come from a variations in the 2 temp sensors - the one that sees the motor temp and the one that we see on the dash. If the computer thinks the motor is running colder than it really is, that could contribute.

    For all we know, there's a big range of "acceptable" pressures designed into the regulators. There have been some guys who put new in and nothing changed. W/o pressure info before and after, that's not as helpful as it seems.

    It's possible that our crappy gas is doing damage to rubber bits wherever. But the mileage discrepancy has been going on since day one.

    I suspect the bikes that gave really low mileage numbers from the git go have a combination of all the plus/minuses on the minus side.

    Maybe some day I'll hook mine up to see what the map looks like. AFAIK, it's the original 02 map that came with the bike.

  4. #49
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    As the temp info to the dash is not coming from the same temp sensor which is connected to the ECU there will alwaýs be some differences.

    Then we have cam setting etc, it all adds up.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  5. #50
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    As the temp info to the dash is not coming from the same temp sensor which is connected to the ECU there will alwaýs be some differences.

    Then we have cam setting etc, it all adds up.
    Well yeah, the difference of what we(the group) see on the dash was basically the evidence for my point. There is variation from one sensor to the next and a combination of sensors reading cold may be contributing to the variation in fuel numbers.

    Yeah, the cam timing. The guys who've done it swear it was worth it.

    What's not clear to me from all the posts is this. Is there variation in the manufacture of those sprockets/cams to warrant slotting the holes to put it to spec? Or is the cam timing being changed to a better "spec" based on Micah's/Ed's experience?

  6. #51
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    For the cam timing I think it is both.
    Micah has seen quite large variations from spec and between the two cylinders.
    With the correct setting it is possible to sacrifice a little bit a top and instead get a good gain in the midrange.

    One day when I have a good garage again I would like to remove the engine over the winter and set the cam timing.
    I tried to check it once (engine in frame) but it was not easy to make accurate and consistent readings.

    For the engine temp I would not worry so much as long as the temp variation is small between the two temp sensors.
    TuneEcu or Tuneboy is however needed to see the "real" temp sensor.
    As far as I remember my readings were almost the same and I expect a slight change as they are not even in the same cylinder.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  7. #52
    apriliaforum prov-nov
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    i appriciate your input for this discussion.

    i also dont know why the FPR was rigged this way. i would not reccomend changing anything if your engine is running fines. But i am sure there are people who can benefit from my experiance.

    when i bought the bike in 2010 it was running quitte well. But the exhaust fumes were smelling a bit rich and the fuel consumption was high (1 L 13 km). i also checked the plugs but did not find anything wrong with them. The dealer reset the IFT value (leaner to the value of 20),did a TPS reset and checked the mapping (05) , the fuel consumption dropped till 1 L 14 km.

    from checking this great forum i suspected a faulty FPR and/ or leaking vacuum tubing . i replaced the FPR with an volkwagen type (identical fuel pressure) and connected it to the manifold vacuum of the rear cylinder, the vacuum tubing was not leaking (replaced anyway). i also installed a 2 x 2 mm restrictor in the vacuum line for pulse reduction. The engine ran smoother and had a fuel consumption of 1L 18 km. i also installed an old mille airbox (just for the noise). The engine was running beter from tickover to full throttle.

    over the winter of 2011-2012 i learned to work with tune ecu. I checked all sensor values of the engine. They were fine. i then made several maps with fuel trims up to 15 % leaner during cruising. when the engine was running too lean i richened the mixture. This took quitte a while as it is difficult to get a good engine respons at low rpm. basicly the engine must run rich at low throttle openings and below 3000 rpm, from 3500-6000 rpm i have reduced the fuel trims from 3-7 %. the engine is still running sweet, i did not lean it out so much as Meanstreak or Deefred, i did lean it out in the same region. The engine starts to hesitate when you open the trottle if there is a lean spot. I also tried different ignition curves derived from Gabro rsv mille and from Catfisch Caponord map, but the futura did not like it at all. At some spots in the ignition maps i have changed it a few degrees and made the curve a a bit more smooth as the engine runs more quit. The idle fule trim value is now 17. i did check the IFt with an CO meter but its an old thing and i do not trust it 100%. the IFT value is really important. if its set to high the engine runs great and fuel consumption will go up a little. if its set too lean the engine will runs rough up to 3000 rpm and not runs well at low loads.

    I also noted that the engine is running sometimes rough under hot conditions in town. i found that the air temperature probe is just above the left radiator and gives a misreading up to 10 degrees C due to heat accumulation. i insulated this section with foam on the outside and the roughness has since reduced. the engine has not been on a dyno. in order to check the mixture values at both cylinders this would be a costly matter (braked dyno and lots of time). The seat of the pant method so far has worked okay (although slow).

    the fuel consumption values are obtained with my normal commute to work with speeds ranging from 50-140 km/h. as an indication my honda cbr 600f2 is running approx 1 L 17 km . When touring with my wife the fuel consumption drops to approx 1 L 21 km. when drivven hard in germany (170 km/h) the fuel consumption goes up to 1L 17 km. As the petrol cost 1 euro 70 cents in the Netherland every drop saved is worth something.

    i have found some reports over cases were the FPR was not connected to the inlet vacuum with triumph and ducati motorbikes. generally the inlet vacuum is used to obtain a constant fuel flow from the injector under all throttle openings and this method is prevered. However In very highly tunes engines (large valve overlap can give blow back) or engine with large vacuum pulses (twins) the pressure is sometimes not constant enough to let the regulator do its work efficiently. the diafragma and spring do not get into a steady state. Some engines have them therefore mounted to the airbox or simply the ambient pressure. The mapping of the engine however needs to be corrcted for this . As fuel pressure is no longer constant there should be a sort of compensation map made . tune-ecu however only shows a fuel map (actually according to catfish this is mGram of air into the cylinder), and a lambda value . These values are sufficient to calculate a uncorrected fuel flow (ie opening time for injector). maybe Catfish has some more info on this subject ?

  8. #53
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    As the Sagem is pure Alpha-n fueling controlled it will be possible to make a map for each cell in the mapping table.
    If the pressure over the injector is then changing it will not make a difference as that pressure difference was already there when they selected the value to be used in the table.

    However from what I learnt from the tuneboy site is that the cells in the fuel table are supposed to represent an air mass value.
    Then it looks what AFR value is selected for the same cell and this gives the fuel amount to be used and at the end the injector opening time to get this fuel amount.

    If there is another hidden layer in the table to correct for the injector pressure differences I don´t know, but for sure Aprilia has not made the connection to the fuel regulator by mistake.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  9. #54
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeybadger View Post
    because I get 35mpg out of mine no matter what! and I doubt an increase of about 800revs from a 1t down front sprocket would account for 15mpg
    That one tooth down made a pretty notable difference, probably a loss of 4-5 MPG average.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  10. #55
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    This is all suddenly very interesting to me. I never utilized TuneECU on my old Futura (2001, now HoneyBadger's bike) and never upgraded to 05 map. No Futura anymore, so no need to play around with it. However, a good friend just bought the flame-red 02 down in Anaheim and rode it home last week, about 400 miles. It began randomly stalling on him after first 120 miles with no rhyme or reason--under load at 90 MPH, closed throttle at 50 MPH, etc. Just cuts out instantly, then immediately restarts. (He has to coast to a stop and restart in neutral due to broken clutch switch, another task for next week) He gave up 100 miles from home as it was getting progressively worse, then had it towed to me. MPG tough to quantify yet, but he topped off 3-4 times on that trip, and it seems he's in the low 30s range.

    25K on the clock, it's a clean example, with excellent charging and no electrical issues found yet. (I've volt-drop tested all accessible power and ground circuits, including ECU, and this bike's electrical seems tight so far). It is stock, derestricted airbox, catalyst still present with TaylorMade pipes. Sounds pretty good for TaylorMade.

    I have not accessed ECU with TuneECU yet--waiting for cable--but I checked for codes, none recorded. I also measured exhaust emissions and man, this bike runs rich! Idle CO levels are close to 6% and it rises progressively to near 10% at 6000 RPM. This is not loaded, just part throttle, and straight out the pipe after the cat. Lambda at 5500 RPM calculated .7178 (over 28% rich fuel trim) for about 10.5:1 a/f ratio. Yikes!

    This is obviously not stock mapping.

    I will check FPR vacuum source first, see if it's hooked to airbox and switch to manifold if it's not. Will then see what kind of fueling differences I get with EGA. If still pig-rich, I will change map later in the week. Meanwhile, I will replace dirty iridiums with new copper plugs, service and synch TBs, install Mille intake boots and K&N air filter.

    Any hints for me?

    Has anyone experienced random stalling that has been corrected with fuel map changes? Sounds illogical to me, but I can't find another reason for it. Also cannot duplicate it in the shop, of course.

    To summarize, what I'll be working with:
    02 Futura
    Stock catalyst with TaylorMade pipes
    Derestricted airbox with Mille air inlet boots and K&N filter

    Would you agree starting with stock 05 map is my best bet? Or is there another available I should try first?

    Thanks men.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  11. #56
    apriliaforum expert Twinz's Avatar
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    improving 05 mapping with tuneecu

    Motech - keep in mind the possible bad fuel pump wiring in the potting material. That will cause the cutting out you describe.
    Twinz - John
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  12. #57
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Sidestand switch can make it cut out as well.
    If it never cuts out in neutral it points to the sidestand switch.

    05 map is a good start and then use the fuel trim to set the CO.
    Check the fuel pressure if you can and check if all coils are functioning.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  13. #58
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanleybobly View Post
    Check the fuelpump lines. And renew the fuelfilter.
    Mine was stalling/hunting. Turn out that the in tank hoses where loose and later on it popped off the fuelfilter.
    Renewed the corrugated pipe from bmw k series. Ducati oem filter. Gates subersible (viton) fuel hose. And the bike runs like king :lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Twinz View Post
    Motech - keep in mind the possible bad fuel pump wiring in the potting material. That will cause the cutting out you describe.
    I thought of that stuff, but his stalling is reported as so sudden and instant with no sputtering or power loss that fuel starvation seems unlikely, and I'm too lazy to strip open the tank without good cause.
    Last edited by Motech; 03-17-2013 at 04:49 PM.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  14. #59
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    Sidestand switch can make it cut out as well.
    If it never cuts out in neutral it points to the sidestand switch.
    Can't say it never cuts out in neutral 'cause I cannot reproduce it at all. Took him almost three hours constant riding before he began to experience it last week. But that is an excellent tip, thank you. It is easy sometimes to overlook the simple things in a technical quest for the more advanced. I'll be stoked if a little sidestand switch wiggle testing provokes a stall tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    05 map is a good start and then use the fuel trim to set the CO.
    Check the fuel pressure if you can and check if all coils are functioning.
    Thanks. I have checked coils already, looked at all four DC waveforms, and they look good.

    Funny, it is obviously very, very rich, yet spark plugs are still mostly light colored with a little darker shading on about 1/3 of the insulator areas. Just goes to show how spark plug reading is so totally useless anymore.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  15. #60
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    My plugs are so white I don´t dare to show them as then everyone will scream that the bike is running too lean.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

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