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Thread: When all else fails, read the instructions...

  1. #1
    apriliaforum expert Stu_O's Avatar
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    When all else fails, read the instructions...

    This is about diagnosing and tuning. It's too damned long, I know. But some will be interested, especially Catfish. It points out the need to make sure everything is working properly and correctly adjusted before fiddling with map parameters. It also points to the correctness of Catfish's constant reminder to adjust the idle fueling after re-mapping.

    Before leaving on my recent trip, the bike had to go through Arizona emission testing. It passed, though not nearly as clean as it has in the past. It blew over 3% CO and almost 400 ppm hydrocarbons at idle. I put it down to 1) the bike was now idling in open loop, not closed as with the previous mapping, and 2) the plugs needed replacement (28,000 miles on Iridium plugs). I went on the trip as is. Fuel mileage was down a small bit, but the bike started and ran well - until the pump crapped in El Paso. Repaired that and put the tank aside.

    The tune-up. Valve check - okay. Plugs replaced with new Iridiums. Look into the throttle bodies and was horrified by the amount of carbon and crap on the body walls and backs of the intake valves. Removed and stripped the throttle bodies, clean ultrasonically, pulse clean both injectors - they were dripping, and spray pattern was like a clogged shower head. The throttle bodies had a lot of filth embedded in nooks and crannys like inside the idle air screw ports. Removed and cleaned the stepper motor. Reassembled it all with new air cleaner, and ran the bike for 3 ten-minute periods on my fuel system cleaning machine.

    Now, lets check the emissions and general running. Whoa! 0.4 % CO and nearly 400 ppm hydrocarbons - indicating slight lean miss. Idle is rough (DUH!). Apparently, cleaning everything and installing fresh plugs made a hell of a change. At this point, I remembered that I'd remapped to 050428 about 6 months ago with the same filthy fuel system and worn plugs and made no further adjustment. So out comes the Axone.

    First thing, I synched the throttle body idle air flows, then checked the data on the Axone. Stepper at 36, TPS showing 17.6, idle fueling reference # at 8.4. I don't have the exhaust test ports, so I was testing at the tail pipes. Were the cats affecting my gas readings? Probably, I thought - even though the engine was in open loop. But there are other gases besides CO and HC that can be used for diagnostics. O2 and CO2 are indicators of combustion efficiency. All gases measured in % should add up to near 16%. At peak efficiency, oxygen should be below 1%, and CO2 should be as high as possible - very close to 15%. I was reading CO2 of 11.5% and oxygen just above 4%.

    Watching the gas analyzer, I increased the idle fueling one button push at a time and waited for the gas numbers to stabilize. The manual says to go for 1.0 - 1.5% CO (USA) at 1250 rpm plus or minus 100. But again, I'm testing post-cat. So I'm looking at HC and CO, but more at the other gases and monitoring idle quality. As I increased the idle fueling reference #, the CO and CO2 increased, HC and O2 came down. I kept increasing fueling till the numbers started getting worse, then backed off to the best I'd seen. Final result (both cylinders very close to each other) - CO at 1.2%, HC near 250 ppm, CO2 at 14.7%, O2 at 0.4%. Idle is dead smooth and throttle response crisp. Lastly, I used the TPS reset in the Axone. The Axone now shows stepper at 22, TPS at 17.6, and idle fueling reference # at 15.4. Note - 15.4 is what worked on my bike and won't necessarily be the correct setting for any other.

    If the bike had been in closed loop at idle, as with the previous map, the idle CO and HC readings at the tail pipes would now have been close to zero, so my final results using oxygen and CO2 numbers tell me that with the bike now open loop at idle, testing at the tail pipes is probably giving actual CO and HC readings, or extremely close. But more to the point, can you imagine what would have happened had I attempted to get the 3% CO readings down by reducing idle fueling - without first having done the injector and induction cleaning and installing new plugs? Trying to mask issues like that by electronic tweaking just makes a bigger mess.

    Stu
    Last edited by Stu_O; 05-17-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert the_toe_cutter's Avatar
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    Jesus wept Stu, sometimes i love carbs lol!

    My gunson gas analyser crimbo present and tuneboy will be put to good use in the new year.

    Surprising to hear your throttle bodies were so clagged, especially as you seem to do lots of longer runs. Would an over the counter fuel additive have made a dent or was the sonic bath a must? Would ethanol have had a hand in that? Seems to varnish up quicker supposedly.
    Brum Brum

  3. #3
    apriliaforum expert Stu_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_toe_cutter View Post
    Jesus wept Stu, sometimes i love carbs lol!

    My gunson gas analyser crimbo present and tuneboy will be put to good use in the new year.
    If you test at the tail pipes, hold a rag around the probe right at the pipe to prevent the pulses from sucking back in. If you don't do that, your readings will be totally bogus.
    Surprising to hear your throttle bodies were so clagged, especially as you seem to do lots of longer runs. Would an over the counter fuel additive have made a dent or was the sonic bath a must? Would ethanol have had a hand in that? Seems to varnish up quicker supposedly.
    I regularly use Techron concentrate in the fuel tank. After this trip was the first time I've seen this type of accumulation. The O ring seals between the lower airbox and throttle body were leaking, allowing oil from the crankcase vent system to get sucked into the bores and leak out all over the throttle body, hoses, wires, down the sides of the engine etc. It was a mess. The airbox drain hose was half full. And with all of that, the hot oil level is still very near Max. LOL! I may have had too much oil in the system when I left home, because the seepage seemed to stop after 2,000 miles. Don't know if that's the extent of the issue - will keep an eye out for further oil seepage from that area. No aerosol cleaner made a dent in the layer of filth, so a strip and manual clean was necessary.



    Stu
    Last edited by Stu_O; 11-10-2011 at 03:10 PM.

  4. #4
    apriliaforum expert the_toe_cutter's Avatar
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    Cheers for the tip about blocking off the exhaust.
    Having watched a mech using the screwd in sniffer ports on my bike i asked for a look at them when he was done. All they were was a one foot length of about 8mm id mild steel tubing welded into drilled bolt so i might bosh together two of em.

    Weird on the possible overfill. I was scratching my head last oil change as i needed over 4l (about 4.2L) to get her to the usual inch below full once warm at 4k rpm. That was a first for me, always only ever needed 3.8 to 4L, must have gotten more out.

    Would that o ring have also caused a lean condition or was the oil blocking the air?

    Only recently started using my sonic cleaner and im mighty impressed with its work on my carbs but ive never had the throttle bodies off the Capo. Might step up this winter and sus it out, especially after yours and Stanleb's postings.

    So Stu, now you know shes running sweet is there even the slightest temptation/curiosity to bang on some cans, filter and Misterfish's map lol. Just to see lol?
    Brum Brum

  5. #5
    apriliaforum expert Stanleybobly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_toe_cutter View Post
    Weird on the possible overfill. I was scratching my head last oil change as i needed over 4l (about 4.2L) to get her to the usual inch below full once warm at 4k rpm. That was a first for me, always only ever needed 3.8 to 4L, must have gotten more out.
    strange, I always pur 4,5 L that's filter included

    now on my second oil change, and it was the same 4,5L
    so next time, I'll drop it with my eyes closed.

    sold: "01 Caponord |Flame Red|, Modlist done: Honda CBR600 RR Mosfet (FH008) Rectifier Mod, Brown Connector Mod
    now: "04 Caponord |Rally Raid| FH016 Mosfet R/R | GPR Titanium Exhaust|
    01 Futura [infinity blue]
    Caponord Stanleybobly style loomed MOSFET Rectifiers & Fuelline Kit FS

  6. #6
    apriliaforum expert Stu_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_toe_cutter View Post
    Would that o ring have also caused a lean condition or was the oil blocking the air?
    Filth and oil blocking air passages likely caused the richcondition, and the worn out plugs didn't exactly enhance combustion. Remove those faults, and it goes leaner. Remember, I'd never set the idle fueling after installing the new map.

    So Stu, now you know shes running sweet is there even the slightest temptation/curiosity to bang on some cans, filter and Misterfish's map lol. Just to see lol?
    I realize you're joking around with me, but no. No interest whatsoever. I don't even use all the power I already have. That's what happens when you get older and your testosterone level goes to hell.
    Last edited by Stu_O; 11-11-2011 at 01:04 PM.

  7. #7
    apriliaforum Member sm2727's Avatar
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    Hi Stu,
    My bike failed emissions.....the CO was about 6.4...needed to be under 5.0. will having the after market pipes cause this. I am looking for the cheap fix. will change plugs and clean the KN air filter. see if that helps. any advice??
    Scott
    "How can you have pudding if you don't eat your meat"

  8. #8
    apriliaforum expert Stu_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm2727 View Post
    Hi Stu,
    My bike failed emissions.....the CO was about 6.4...needed to be under 5.0. will having the after market pipes cause this. I am looking for the cheap fix. will change plugs and clean the KN air filter. see if that helps. any advice??
    Scott
    Hi Scott,
    Didn't think you were subject to that DEQ mess up in New river. 6.4% is pretty high. The K&N and pipes should lean it, if anything. But that thing is rich. A couple of questions - what did the HC reading look like? What mapping is in the bike? Has the idle CO been checked and adjusted? How many miles on the plugs? BTW, a K&N air filter is a great way to deposit a lovely layer of oily filth in your throttle bodies. If you need to, you can ride down here and check the bike on my Axone. Install the latest factory map, synch the throttle bodies, and set the idle CO. Or not - your choice.

    Stu

  9. #9
    apriliaforum Member sm2727's Avatar
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    Hey Stu, I might take you up on the offer.... The map is original, I have not had any changes...
    maybe Sun. if you are around...will send PM
    Scott
    "How can you have pudding if you don't eat your meat"

  10. #10
    apriliaforum Member sm2727's Avatar
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    Looks like my HC was 598....
    "How can you have pudding if you don't eat your meat"

  11. #11
    apriliaforum expert Stu_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm2727 View Post
    Looks like my HC was 598....
    That part passes. But even without the cats, it should be about half of that. Why don't we take this to PMs, so we don't clog the bandwidth with personal stuff.

    Stu

  12. #12
    apriliaforum Member sm2727's Avatar
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    Ok ...Check PM
    "How can you have pudding if you don't eat your meat"

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    apriliaforum expert JohnG.'s Avatar
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    Have used this for years...

    www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Morey-s-Upper-Cylinder-Lubricant-1-Litre.aspx?pid=15026#Desrciption
    Last edited by JohnG.; 01-05-2013 at 08:25 PM.
    JohnG.

    '02 Capo.

  14. #14
    apriliaforum Member aoro's Avatar
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    The best on the market...

    pro line

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    http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...cument&land=DE

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