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Thread: POSTING: Starter Relay Mod: Futura w/ Ford Relay

  1. #76
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roberttran View Post
    All of a sudden, my bike stops starting now. The relay just buzzes and the bike doesn't crank. I see the tachometer needle go up though (O_o).

    I'll test the ground, but I think it works.

    I'm having a lot of trouble getting the starter to crank. For some reason, I'm getting continuity between the 2 main terminals when the relay is removed. Isn't it only suppose to have continuity if the relay is energized? I thought maybe it was a bad relay so I put another one in (I have the Ford and aftermarket Ford). Before testing it, there was no continuity between the main terminals. I tested with only the trigger terminals and I can clearly hear the relay clicking. I hook up the main terminals to test. The bike barely cranks and there's just a buzzing sound from the relay. I test continuity on the main terminals and my multimeter beeps!?!? Did I just fry this relay too?

    I'm pretty confused now. Did I just somehow ruin 2 new relays?
    No, those relays are pretty stout. What you describe really sounds like a weak battery. If you are POSITIVE your battery is good, try this:

    First off, forget continuity testing. It is frustrating and 79% useless.

    Secondly, if your Ford relay has two primary terminals (small ones) marked "I" and "S", make sure the red lead is hooked to "S". "I" is an output. If you have it hooked up there, the relay will just moan.

    Third, check volt-drops of your primary circuits like this:

    • First the positive side. Attach one voltmeter lead to battery positive, other end to red primary. Should read battery voltage with key on, close to zero with starter button pushed. If you get above a volt with button pushed, you have a problem on the start circuit.
    • Next, check the ground side. With one voltmeter lead attached to battery negative, the other to blue lead, bike in neutral, key on, should see under .1 volt. Starter button pushed, should see under .5 volt. If over 1 volt with button pushed, you have a ground problem just like mine.

    I think you will find your problem within the tests above. Feel free to post up here or PM your findings to me and I will help walk you through it.

    BTW, mine intermittently "no-cranks" (very embarrassing), and the volt-drop on my blue wire is around 3 volts with start button pushed. It is a primary ground problem, period. Once I diagnose my ground problem, I will post up the fix.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  2. #77
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    You will always have some voltage drop on the negative side of the solenoid.
    It passes the diod module where you will loose 0.7V first and then depending of the bike configuration (side stand, bike in gear etc) you have to pass another one or two switches before reaching ground which will add resistance.

    You could start with checking that your LH and RH ground points on the cylinder are clean and tight.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  3. #78
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    You will always have some voltage drop on the negative side of the solenoid.
    It passes the diod module where you will loose 0.7V first and then depending of the bike configuration (side stand, bike in gear etc) you have to pass another one or two switches before reaching ground which will add resistance.

    You could start with checking that your LH and RH ground points on the cylinder are clean and tight.
    Thank you for that tip. As soon as I get the time, I will track it and post my findings/fix. It's on the back-burner right now as the Futura is no longer my primary bike.

    In theory, each switch should drop .2 volt volt max, diodes even less.

    When my OE relay failed a year ago, I measured .1 drop on the positive side (three switches), and the negative side showed under .3 volt drop (three switches and multiple diodes).

    When I measured the same circuits last month, I found the same .1 volt drop on the positive side, a full 3 volts on the negative.

    All measurements were taken loaded, ie: starter cranking.

    Voltage drops are always caused by resistance, usually poor connection somewhere, most often a poor ground contact or contaminated connector, sometimes a switch or relay.
    Last edited by Motech; 03-08-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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  4. #79
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    You are wrong about the diodes dropping less than 0.2V http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/1.html
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  5. #80
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    deefred, thank you very much for that link. Though I have very little formal training in electronics I have always considered myself very competent with basic automotive electrics. One area that has always puzzled me is diodes. Oh I understood how they worked well enough it's just that the diagrams always seemed to illustrate them backwards. That article makes it clear that they are indeed illustrated backwards.

    Oddly enough, the direction of the diode symbol's “arrowhead” points against the direction of electron flow. This is because the diode symbol was invented by engineers, who predominantly use conventional flow notation in their schematics, showing current as a flow of charge from the positive (+) side of the voltage source to the negative (-). This convention holds true for all semiconductor symbols possessing “arrowheads:” the arrow points in the permitted direction of conventional flow, and against the permitted direction of electron flow.
    It positively amazes me how far humans have come technologically but for some odd reason we label batteries and diodes (and I can only wonder what else) backwards.

  6. #81
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    think the water pipe analogy is always a problem. My understanding is that electrons don't really travel down the wire. If the atoms are coming apart in a way that electrons are given up - well that's called radioactivity and the electron is now called a Beta particle (Hydrogen 3(tritium), carbon 14, phosporous 32, and the like) It's really more a flipping of charges along the atoms that make up the wire that we call current.

  7. #82
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAS View Post
    think the water pipe analogy is always a problem. My understanding is that electrons don't really travel down the wire........... It's really more a flipping of charges along the atoms that make up the wire that we call current.
    I believe you are technically correct about this part but so called free electrons do move from one atom to the next. Holding to the idea that electrons flow through the wire like water through a pipe will not get you in any trouble in understanding basic DC circuits.

  8. #83
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    You are wrong about the diodes dropping less than 0.2V http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/1.html
    Then how do you explain my previous, loaded .3 volt drop?

    Problem with theory is it is not always reality. Just as your article claims a single diode will produce a 700 mV drop, my diagnostic reality more often proves much different.

    Furthermore, "engineers" have "taught" me that most mechanical switches will produce a 200 mV drop, yet that is very rare in my experience. Witness my loaded .1 volt drop through three switches on the positive side, even today.

    Perhaps this entry in your link is relevant:
    For silicon diodes, the typical forward voltage is 0.7 volts, nominal. For germanium diodes, the forward voltage is only 0.3 volts."
    Could explain my .3 volt drop measurement last year.

    I may have misspoke about diodes generating less voltage drop than switches. However, my technical input is most always based on my own professional, hands-on experience, not published theory.
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  9. #84
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Not much point discussing with you further when even basic theory is not good enough for you.

    If you google germanium diodes you will find that they are used in milliamp applications.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  10. #85
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    Not much point discussing with you further when even basic theory is not good enough for you.

    If you google germanium diodes you will find that they are used in milliamp applications.
    Oh well... My significant experience trumps internet search engines any day. If I had not gotten hundreds of volt-drop readings consistent with my claims over the years, I'd shut up.

    BTW, I'd be OK with .7 loaded volt drop on the ground side. Not tickled, but OK. If you noticed, I advised Tran to accept anything under a volt. Over 3 volts however... Not so much. Anything wrong with that professor?
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  11. #86
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    No, I agree.
    3 Volts seems excessive in drop.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  12. #87
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    Ended up being the battery. Voltage seemed fine, but when it tried to crank, the voltage would drop down to 7. Put in a brand new Yuasa battery and it starts up each time now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motech View Post
    No, those relays are pretty stout. What you describe really sounds like a weak battery. If you are POSITIVE your battery is good, try this:

    First off, forget continuity testing. It is frustrating and 79% useless.

    Secondly, if your Ford relay has two primary terminals (small ones) marked "I" and "S", make sure the red lead is hooked to "S". "I" is an output. If you have it hooked up there, the relay will just moan.

    Third, check volt-drops of your primary circuits like this:

    • First the positive side. Attach one voltmeter lead to battery positive, other end to red primary. Should read battery voltage with key on, close to zero with starter button pushed. If you get above a volt with button pushed, you have a problem on the start circuit.
    • Next, check the ground side. With one voltmeter lead attached to battery negative, the other to blue lead, bike in neutral, key on, should see under .1 volt. Starter button pushed, should see under .5 volt. If over 1 volt with button pushed, you have a ground problem just like mine.

    I think you will find your problem within the tests above. Feel free to post up here or PM your findings to me and I will help walk you through it.

    BTW, mine intermittently "no-cranks" (very embarrassing), and the volt-drop on my blue wire is around 3 volts with start button pushed. It is a primary ground problem, period. Once I diagnose my ground problem, I will post up the fix.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAS View Post
    think the water pipe analogy is always a problem. My understanding is that electrons don't really travel down the wire. If the atoms are coming apart in a way that electrons are given up - well that's called radioactivity and the electron is now called a Beta particle (Hydrogen 3(tritium), carbon 14, phosporous 32, and the like) It's really more a flipping of charges along the atoms that make up the wire that we call current.
    When an atom looses an electron, it becomes a positive ion. You are speaking of what would happen if they lose a neutron or a proton that are in the nucleolus.

    Electrons do travel from atom to atom when there is current flow. Conductors are elements that readily share their electrons. Insulators are reluctant to share.

  14. #89
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkCoburn View Post
    When an atom looses an electron, it becomes a positive ion. You are speaking of what would happen if they lose a neutron or a proton that are in the nucleolus.

    Electrons do travel from atom to atom when there is current flow. Conductors are elements that readily share their electrons. Insulators are reluctant to share.
    Ions only exist in aqueous solutions. It works for batteries, not so much solid wires.

  15. #90
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    ok the way you described the terminals being 12 and 9 oclock completely confused me so saying the "s" terminal is facing the front of the bike (i have no "i" terminal on this one) then all thats left is the negative terminal being on the brake side of the bike and the positive being on the clutch/shifter side? or is that backwards?because it looks to me like on your bike the positive is on the brake side and negative is on the clutch side which is oposite of my bike... im confused what happens if you wire these backwards?

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