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Thread: POSTING: Starter Relay Mod: Futura w/ Ford Relay

  1. #16
    apriliaforum expert woodman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    Do you know the coil resistance for the two starter relays?
    You may but a higher stress on the starter button if the new relay has a lower resistance.
    How does one check the resistance of the relays?
    I have an Aprilia relay, yamaha relay and a ford relay that I could check if I knew how.
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  2. #17
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Measure the resistance between the two thin wires or the two smaller terminal posts.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  3. #18
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    Check it across the two main terminals. Should be very close to zero resistance. Disconnect the battery ground first.

  4. #19
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzmille View Post
    Check it across the two main terminals. Should be very close to zero resistance. Disconnect the battery ground first.
    Not for measuring the coil resistance.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  5. #20
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    I'm with you Deefred. Considering just how little light duty that starter button is(and those contacts are teeny), if that big coil in the Ford relay pulls two or three times the current, it's very conceivable the switch could arc and eventually either fail or weld closed at some point.

    I would guess that it's the 2ndary side of Motechs relay that's buggered and the primary coil is likely still OK. Be a worthwhile 5 mins imo.

  6. #21
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's right of course. I thought he was talking about through the contacts. I forgot you guy's were concerned about the electrical load of different relays. I doubt there would be any significant difference but it certainly wouldn't hurt to check.

  7. #22
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAS View Post
    If you are thinking of bypassing that side stand switch, it's a heck of a lot easier to do in light at home than in the dark alongside the road somewheres.

    I think my brain is a little more careful now that mine is bypassed. I've not put it in gear once with the stand down since.
    Yup, real simple. Just ground the blue wire on the starter relay. Bypasses all safety features.

    Just don't thumb the starter with bike in gear and clutch out.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  8. #23
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyytsö View Post
    Good write-up. Thanks!

    Consider to post the pictures to Imageshack or some other picture hosting service. Then it is easy to use the IMG tags to attach them to the post to correct positions.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpitfireTriple View Post
    There you go Motech. Time for you to join the 21st century!

    Some people use photobucket, but I've seen far too many broken links. Flickr is apparently good if you want to make a social life around photos (I'd raise an eyebrow, but I live in a glass house), I find Picasa Web pretty good. And it's free.
    Hmm... I was able to do a pretty good job with no problems over here at this more user-friendly forum here at home:

    http://www.southbayriders.com/forums...ad.php?t=91996
    Last edited by Motech; 02-22-2010 at 08:37 PM.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  9. #24
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    Do you know the coil resistance for the two starter relays?
    You may but a higher stress on the starter button if the new relay has a lower resistance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Motech View Post
    Have no clue, and measuring the old one would be futile anyway. If using a genuine Ford part though, I would be willing to guarantee this mod for life if I installed it professionally for a customer.

    I suppose I could measure the switch current draw and post it up later for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAS View Post
    I'm with you Deefred. Considering just how little light duty that starter button is(and those contacts are teeny), if that big coil in the Ford relay pulls two or three times the current, it's very conceivable the switch could arc and eventually either fail or weld closed at some point.

    I would guess that it's the 2ndary side of Motechs relay that's buggered and the primary coil is likely still OK. Be a worthwhile 5 mins imo.
    Measured current draw across relay primary straight from battery positive while monitoring battery voltage: 2.2 Amps @ 10.8 volts.

    Ohms law says that comes out to about 5 ohms resistance.

    Think that is enough resistance? What is the stock relay rated at? How much current is the ignition switch rated for?

    Absent these specs, the only means of comparison is to measure current draw of a known-good Futura starter relay, provided one even exists out there. I will test one of my mates Tuono relays someday and post that up here. Meanwhile, if anyone wishes to measure theirs, I'm curious. For sake of accuracy, it is critical to record battery voltage while cranking too.
    Last edited by Motech; 02-22-2010 at 09:53 PM.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  10. #25
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Can´t see the reason why you want to crank the engine while doing this.
    Most damage to the starter button will be when the coil is excited and that is before the relay has bridged the main contacts.
    Measure the coil resistance by using a multimeter set to measure Ohms.
    When we have the values from stock vs ford relay we can perhaps make an engineering judgement if the difference is of concern or not.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  11. #26
    apriliaforum expert RobC's Avatar
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    ffs 20 watts is not going to kill the starter button! If you are that worried, drive the solenoid through a relay. Not that I'd recommend adding in more connections aka potential points of failure.

  12. #27
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobC View Post
    ffs 20 watts is not going to kill the starter button! If you are that worried, drive the solenoid through a relay. Not that I'd recommend adding in more connections aka potential points of failure.
    Yur probably right, but have you taken a look at those contacts? Like all the wiring, it's as light duty as you can imagine. A small amount of arcing will grow into a faulty switch in no time.

  13. #28
    apriliaforum expert RobC's Avatar
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    yes, maybe you are right about the wiring generally, but as I said, it's always an option to take the coil current via a relay.

  14. #29
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    Can´t see the reason why you want to crank the engine while doing this.
    How else can one measure the current draw of a solenoid if one does not activate that solenoid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    Most damage to the starter button will be when the coil is excited and that is before the relay has bridged the main contacts.
    Sorry, failed to mention: My meter was set to min/max, and the initial "excitation" was a bit higher than the sustained cranking. Maximum draw was 2.3 Amps, about .1 Amp higher. No significant difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    Measure the coil resistance by using a multimeter set to measure Ohms.
    This test was the most efficient and effective means to determine current demand on the starter switch (your original concern) and solenoid resistance (a useless spec once current draw is determined). It took about 22 seconds and provided us with actual operating values as opposed to theoretical ones based upon useless ohms readings. Your approach would have wasted an additional 3 minutes of my life and provided no real-world data from which to extrapolate.

    So if you can, please answer my previous questions.

    Is 5 ohms high enough resistance at the primary side of the new starter relay to protect our starter switches?

    Or can our Futura starter switches withstand the 2.2 Amps of current flow required to activate the Ford relay?

    Quote Originally Posted by deefred View Post
    When we have the values from stock vs ford relay we can perhaps make an engineering judgement if the difference is of concern or not.
    Do you have access to the aprilia specs? If so, yes, we can compare values. However, my current test is good enough for me. Even without precise specifications, I am quite confident in the ability of our starter switches, as designed, to handle 2.2 Amps of current to crank our engines over, and I have no problem standing behind this mod professionally.
    Last edited by Motech; 02-23-2010 at 11:19 AM.
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  15. #30
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    The sparking at the starter button will occur just when you energize the coil which is before the current goes thru the starter motor.
    That means the battery voltage will be higher than during cranking and so also the current generated.

    There are also starter relays which have two coils in parallell when the relay is not bridged and then when actuated only one coil is used. Measuring the current with the relay already bridged will then give a false lower current flowing thru.
    If the Ford relay has this function, probably not, but do you know for certain....

    Checking the resistance over the coil is so simple and comparing with the old stock relay would be easy as well.
    I don´t know the aprilia spec of the starter relay hence the reason to compare it.
    If the resistance is within 30% between the two, I would say it would probably be safe to use it from the starter button perspective without using an extra relay to power the ford relay.
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC 320mm brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch.
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

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