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Thread: Feeling Antsy (WSBK Title)

  1. #46
    apriliaforum expert duc slayer's Avatar
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    not sure why but the guy just can't get a break.
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  2. #47
    apriliaforum expert AndyD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axecent View Post
    Too bad his bike and crew let him down early in the season.....but if Haga had not gotten all banged up, it would probably already be over with Ben and Fab.
    Funny how things even out eh?? Ben and his early bike teething probs (& a couple of "trying too hard" offs), then Nori getting banged up. You could just as easily say IF Ben hadn't been let down early on, the HE would have the title all wrapped up by Nurburgring. I love it going down to the wire. Any chance on a "dual champion" if the points are all tied?? What's the tie-braker? Race wins?? What an amazing performance by a "rookie".

    How do you think he'll do in MotoGP? Think he'll be showing Edwards his rear end??
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  3. #48
    apriliaforum expert RSVRFACTORY's Avatar
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    it think in tied points situation it would go to race wins...then 2nds..3rds
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  4. #49
    apriliaforum expert Italijet's Avatar
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    Wsbk spoiler.....

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadak View Post
    I sure have

    http://sbk.perugiatiming.com/pdf_fra...09&p_Round=FRA

    Where'd Haga finish in race 1 after starting from 4th on the Grid - 3 spots behind Spies and a long and laborious time being held up by Max Biaggi ?? What position did Spies finish in Race 2 after starting 3 spots ahead of Haga ?

    I think the Ducati maybe has an edge here.
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  5. #50
    apriliaforum expert Italijet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klam View Post
    formula 1 engines aren't inline
    Technically the shallow angles of the V8 in F1 allows the engines to work as 2 IL4's with a common crank. They actually balance at the crank much better than a IL4.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRexRacing
    F1 engines are limited to 18K RPM.
    Only when in the car during a race week-end.
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  6. #51
    apriliaforum expert nomadak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italijet View Post
    I sure have

    http://sbk.perugiatiming.com/pdf_fra...09&p_Round=FRA

    Where'd Haga finish in race 1 after starting from 4th on the Grid - 3 spots behind Spies and a long and laborious time being held up by Max Biaggi ?? What position did Spies finish in Race 2 after starting 3 spots ahead of Haga ?

    I think the Ducati maybe has an edge here.
    I think you are confusing issues here. Each unit combo of rider/bike/team is unique. Each rider chooses their own setup and tire combo. Each rider has different strengths, each bike different strength, each tire an area of the track, a temperature and a distance in the race where it works best.

    It just isn't as simple as it seems like you are attempting to make it. ie. Ducati wins so it is the best bike.

    The track heated up for the second race and Spies changed his tire choice anticipating that. It unfortunately was the wrong combo for that particular leg. He and his team paid the price.

    Spies had a comfortable gap in the closing stages of race one. He had a small mistake and that allowed Haga to close up that cushion in the final lap.
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  7. #52
    apriliaforum expert TRexRacing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italijet View Post
    Only when in the car during a race week-end.
    What are you rolling eyes about?As if it counts any other time.Like when you're driving your F60 to Starbucks and you need to make that light.
    oh well nevermind

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italijet View Post
    Technically the shallow angles of the V8 in F1 allows the engines to work as 2 IL4's with a common crank. They actually balance at the crank much better than a IL4.
    the same could be said about any V or L configured engine. they are banks of inlines. obviously they are better balanced than inline. but they are not inlines.
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  9. #54
    apriliaforum expert Axecent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italijet View Post
    I sure have

    http://sbk.perugiatiming.com/pdf_fra...09&p_Round=FRA

    Where'd Haga finish in race 1 after starting from 4th on the Grid - 3 spots behind Spies and a long and laborious time being held up by Max Biaggi ?? What position did Spies finish in Race 2 after starting 3 spots ahead of Haga ?

    I think the Ducati maybe has an edge here.
    Maybe so, but Ben had an obvious front tire issue.
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  10. #55
    apriliaforum expert Powerful Pierre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomadak View Post
    I think you are confusing issues here. Each unit combo of rider/bike/team is unique. Each rider chooses their own setup and tire combo. Each rider has different strengths, each bike different strength, each tire an area of the track, a temperature and a distance in the race where it works best.

    It just isn't as simple as it seems like you are attempting to make it. ie. Ducati wins so it is the best bike.

    The track heated up for the second race and Spies changed his tire choice anticipating that. It unfortunately was the wrong combo for that particular leg. He and his team paid the price.

    Spies had a comfortable gap in the closing stages of race one. He had a small mistake and that allowed Haga to close up that cushion in the final lap.
    I'd agree with everything you say except the last paragraph........

    Had Nori got past Max sooner he had more pace than Spies and would have won......Spies said he made lots of mistakes in that race and couldn't pull a gap, for whatever reason he was already at his limit.....Nori on the other hand had loads of pace but not in the right areas to deal with a very tenacious Max.....he broke the lap record on the next to last lap and took heaps of time out of Spies......Ben did well to defend and hang on for the win after he ran wide and let Nori half way past.

  11. #56
    apriliaforum expert nomadak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerful Pierre View Post
    I'd agree with everything you say except the last paragraph........

    Had Nori got past Max sooner he had more pace than Spies and would have won......Spies said he made lots of mistakes in that race and couldn't pull a gap, for whatever reason he was already at his limit.....Nori on the other hand had loads of pace but not in the right areas to deal with a very tenacious Max.....he broke the lap record on the next to last lap and took heaps of time out of Spies......Ben did well to defend and hang on for the win after he ran wide and let Nori half way past.
    You are splitting hairs here, I watched the race twice. For certain Haga was closing on Spies. There was still nearly a second cushion till Spies made that one mistake on the last lap where he ran wide, let Haga get by, then had to retaliate. I saw where Spies mentioned he made several mistakes throughout the race. Stuff that probably only he felt were mistakes, from my vantage point, he was blazing on rails.

    If Haga had gotten by Biaggi earlier, he may have used up his tires too OR he could have hit a bird with his head AGAIN, OR another rider could have taken him out like Fabrizio did Spies a few rounds ago. Plenty of areas for speculation out there.


    No worries, what occurred has been written in history. I'm a motor sports fan. I like good clean racing. I am a Haga fan and a Spies fan. They had an epic throw down. Spies had a tough break and it ended up being Haga's day.

    My point was that the Ducati, while being an incredible race bike, isn't necessarily the most advanced machine based on Italijet's arguments.
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  12. #57
    apriliaforum expert Italijet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRexRacing View Post
    What are you rolling eyes about?As if it counts any other time.Like when you're driving your F60 to Starbucks and you need to make that light.
    Sorry TRex, I took your quote as a contradicton to the fact that shallow V angled, multi cylinder engines rev higher due to better balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by klam
    the same could be said about any V or L configured engine. they are banks of inlines. obviously they are better balanced than inline. but they are not inlines.
    Err, I take it that you've never tried balancing a 90degree Vtwin at the crank. Better balanced is not what I would call it...

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadak
    It just isn't as simple as it seems like you are attempting to make it. ie. Ducati wins so it is the best bike.
    ... Spies had a comfortable gap in the closing stages of race one. He had a small mistake and that allowed Haga to close up that cushion in the final lap.
    Don't take my comment of the Ducati being further through the development cycle to mean that it's the better bike. Although, the fact that most race weekends the accumulative scores of Haga and Fabrizio are higher than that of Spies and Sykes, does suggest that the Ducati has more capability. But, both of the Xerox Ducati riders are ex MotoGP riders, which neither Sykes or Spies are. It seems that ex MotoGP riders are currently getting more out of the Superbikes.

    I think we were watching different races (or TV editing). The race I saw showed Haga closing the Gap on Spies from the moment he passed Biaggi. At the time of Spies braking error, Haga was within striking distance of Spies. Had Haga anticipated the mistake instead of braking harder due to the expectation that Spies would cut back to the apex (as he had done to Fabrizio earlier in the season), Haga would have been on the throttle that little bit earlier. Spies would not have been able to out drag Haga and the Ducati through the exit of the corner.

    The rider doesn't make those choices in a top team. The rider describes what he's feeling, the analysis from the aquired data shows what each component is doing. It's then the engineers and designer that workout how what the data is telling becomes what the rider is feeling. From this they workout what is required to solve the condition.

    I can't argue with the rest of what you said, but even so it doesn't change the fact that the Ducati placed better overall than the Yamaha.
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  13. #58
    apriliaforum expert Prilliant03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italijet View Post
    The answer is simple. Tha engine ability to balance the crank on an IL4 cylinder results in the engine being able to sustain high revolutions per second. The higher the revs per second, the more power that is being produced (F1 Engines rev to 20k rpm and produce almost 300bhp/litre). The Vtwin design of the Ducati Engine cannot be balanced in the same way that a IL4 can. Therefore it is not possible to make the BHP due to increasing the revs. The extra 200cc's (7.8ci) allows the VTwin engine to produce a similar BHP figure to the IL4.
    Actually, the Duc's inability to rev has nothing to do with balance (90 degree V twins have perfect primary balance and require no balance shafts, unlike the 60 degree rotax motors). Most I4s also run a balance shaft as they are not perfectly balanced. IIRC the only naturally balanced engine configurations are the 90 degree V twin, the inline 6 and the V12. There may be others.

    The issue in any big twin is the relative size and weight of the pistons, and the stresses involved in accelerating and decelerating them between the top and bottom of each piston stroke. As a result piston speeds must remain lower and con rods stronger to deal with the extra stresses. They also need comparatively more substantial cases to deal with the huge torque of the big bangs of each combustion stroke.

    A 1000cc I4 in comparison has 4 smaller pistons (each less than half the size of the twin's) and 4 con rods to support them. Less metal to move means lower stresses and an easier job accelerating and decelerating the pistons up and down the bore.

    I remember reading years ago that it was actually a Yamaha engineer who came up with the formula that allowed the bigger engined twins to produce similar power to the I4s. Extra capacity is essential for parity.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prilliant03 View Post
    Actually, the Duc's inability to rev has nothing to do with balance (90 degree V twins have perfect primary balance and require no balance shafts, unlike the 60 degree rotax motors). Most I4s also run a balance shaft as they are not perfectly balanced. IIRC the only naturally balanced engine configurations are the 90 degree V twin, the inline 6 and the V12. There may be others.

    The issue in any big twin is the relative size and weight of the pistons, and the stresses involved in accelerating and decelerating them between the top and bottom of each piston stroke. As a result piston speeds must remain lower and con rods stronger to deal with the extra stresses. They also need comparatively more substantial cases to deal with the huge torque of the big bangs of each combustion stroke.

    A 1000cc I4 in comparison has 4 smaller pistons (each less than half the size of the twin's) and 4 con rods to support them. Less metal to move means lower stresses and an easier job accelerating and decelerating the pistons up and down the bore.

    I remember reading years ago that it was actually a Yamaha engineer who came up with the formula that allowed the bigger engined twins to produce similar power to the I4s. Extra capacity is essential for parity.
    The biggest limitation to the twins is actually their piston size. It really doesn't have to do much with their mass as that can be dealt with using appropriate materials and designs.

    What the engineers haven't been able to do is increase the flame front speed which is the biggest limitation. As the engine speed increases the available time for combustion becomes shorter and shorter. Naturally at some point there simply isn't enough time for combustion to take place efficiently, and power subsequently drops off.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italijet View Post
    Err, I take it that you've never tried balancing a 90degree Vtwin at the crank. Better balanced is not what I would call it...
    actually, that's exactly what you called it

    Quote Originally Posted by Italijet View Post
    Technically the shallow angles of the V8 in F1 allows the engines to work as 2 IL4's with a common crank. They actually balance at the crank much better than a IL4.
    you can't seem to post without calling other people's experiences into question, while clearly having none of your own.
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