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Thread: Best breakdown ever!!!

  1. #1
    apriliaforum expert Dr_Jakob's Avatar
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    Best breakdown ever!!!

    I just got home. Just.

    Went riding with a couple of guys... you know, a couple of newbies and so on... Nice ride. Touristic.

    The thing that went wrong was MY BIKE! "G*** D*** M***F**** Fut!!!"

    The thing is:
    1. starts like a dream (which is unussual)
    2. when it is in neutral gear, works just great
    3. when i ride, it just looses power, rpm and eventually dies.

    4. now, for the best part, the reason why this is the best breakdown ever:

    IT ONLY WORKS PROPPERLY IN VERY HIGH RPM (I'm talking about RPM really close to the limiter).

    Isn't that just great? The bike actually makes you race. So, I had a lot of fun getting home. I got home in one piece, thank god.

    Well, i do like the new and NOT improved Fut, BUT I would really like to have it running like it used to run = not suicidal.

    HELP! J

    p.s. My neighbour suggested that I take a look at the distributor cap and stuff like that.
    I am not here. What is "here"? Isn't "here" just "there" without a "t" ?

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert 50Joe's Avatar
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    I had a low speed coil fail once on a dirt bike. It ran like crap unless wound out really high.
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  3. #3
    apriliaforum expert woodman's Avatar
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    Thats a problem that I have never heard of yet, hope you get it worked out soon.
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  4. #4
    apriliaforum expert Dr_Jakob's Avatar
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    Eh, for now I'll exchange the spark plugs, if it doesn't work, it's off to the service. I hate it when I can't fix the bike myself.
    I am not here. What is "here"? Isn't "here" just "there" without a "t" ?

  5. #5
    apriliaforum expert commandodave's Avatar
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    Ask your self the following series of questions:
    1. Did it work yesterday?
    If the answer is "Yes", then ask:
    What did I do between yesterday and today?
    If you did anything, that is the source of your problem.

    Your problem sounds suspiciously like what I had when I took the air box off and forgot to reconnect either a vacuum hose or an electric plug.

    I would start with those. A cheap fix if that is your problem.

    Dave

  6. #6
    apriliaforum expert Dr_Jakob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by commandodave View Post
    Ask your self the following series of questions:
    1. Did it work yesterday?
    What did I do between yesterday and today?
    If you did anything, that is the source of your problem.
    It worked yesterday.
    I did nothing, except riding in a bit of cold (which I do constantly)
    Si, I think that I'm not the guilty one.
    Quote Originally Posted by commandodave View Post
    Your problem sounds suspiciously like what I had when I took the air box off and forgot to reconnect either a vacuum hose or an electric plug.
    I haven't taken the airbox off recently. Actually, I haven't taken it off ever.

    Any other ideas?
    I am not here. What is "here"? Isn't "here" just "there" without a "t" ?

  7. #7
    apriliaforum expert commandodave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Jakob View Post
    I haven't taken the airbox off recently. Actually, I haven't taken it off ever.

    Any other ideas?
    Doesn't mean a hose could not have cracked or worked loose. Likewise an electrical connection. Since you have to remove the airbox to change the plugs, you might as well check for these when you are in there.

    Dave

  8. #8
    apriliaforum expert Dr_Jakob's Avatar
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    Agreed. Any other ideas? I know that Italian electrics are a bit weak, so ... what else could be wrong?
    I am not here. What is "here"? Isn't "here" just "there" without a "t" ?

  9. #9
    apriliaforum expert JeffC's Avatar
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    Does it pop or misfire at low rpms?

  10. #10
    apriliaforum expert bobdavis73's Avatar
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    recent discovery by CJguy

    Todd had a problem with the bike trying to die when doing a full throttle run. It always happened at around 7 to 8000 rpm. So in that way it is quite the opposite of what you have going on. Swapping out coils fixed his. I think it is important to understand how the fuel injection system works in order to trouble shoot this. Here are the basics but I can elaborate if you would like.

    CPU: The CPU located on the clutch side of the bike just under the mid faring near the front of the bike. This has the injection map data in it. There is also a vacume hose leading to it from the air box. This tells the CPU the barometric pressure inside the air box so it can adjust fuel/air ratio to arrive at the fuel/air target ratio values programed in the cpu. The CPU also gets input data from;
    throttle position sensors
    Tachometer
    engine temperature sensors
    air box air temperature sensors
    bike speed
    Battery voltage

    The delivey of fuel through the injectors is done based on a map that compares throttle position and RPM. The Throttle position sensor must have a correct zero set point. This is a potentiometer that regulates voltage. If this zero set point is off the entire engine map will be off as well. If the barometric sensor hose is off or leaking the air/fuel mixture will be off as well. Lets say that this line is off. The airbox vacume caused by wide open throttle is not seen by the CPU. It thinks the bike is not experiencing vacume so it doesn't reduce fuel flow to maintain proper fuel air mixture. The engine runs very rich and might only run well at idle when its fuel mixture is set for low vacume and when it is wide open throttle and can handle the extra fuel.

    This might be the problem but it is hard to tell.

    Any of these inputs being off could cause a significant variation in fuel/air ratio. It should be noted that none of us has seen this exact situation to my knowlege. It is important for us as a group to get the solution to this.

    Let's get our heads together and figure this thing out.

    Time for some hints.

    Do you smell a strong fuel smell when at idle?
    Does it idle well?
    What RPMs does it mess up at?
    What RPM are you at when it starts running right?

    Bob


    "Although all men are born free, slavery has been the general lot of the human race. Ignorant - they have been cheated; asleep - they have been surprised; divided - the yoke has been forced upon them. But what is the lesson? ...the people ought to be enlightened, to be awakened, to be united, that after establishing a govenment they should watch over it.... It is universally admitted that a well-instructed people alone can be permanently free."
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  11. #11
    apriliaforum expert Pat's Avatar
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    Maybe a silly question, but....

    Have you got any error codes when you put the bike in diagnostic mode?

  12. #12
    apriliaforum expert Dr_Jakob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobdavis73 View Post
    Todd had a problem with the bike trying to die when doing a full throttle run. It always happened at around 7 to 8000 rpm. So in that way it is quite the opposite of what you have going on. Swapping out coils fixed his. I think it is important to understand how the fuel injection system works in order to trouble shoot this. Here are the basics but I can elaborate if you would like.

    CPU: The CPU located on the clutch side of the bike just under the mid faring near the front of the bike. This has the injection map data in it. There is also a vacume hose leading to it from the air box. This tells the CPU the barometric pressure inside the air box so it can adjust fuel/air ratio to arrive at the fuel/air target ratio values programed in the cpu. The CPU also gets input data from;
    throttle position sensors
    Tachometer
    engine temperature sensors
    air box air temperature sensors
    bike speed
    Battery voltage

    The delivey of fuel through the injectors is done based on a map that compares throttle position and RPM. The Throttle position sensor must have a correct zero set point. This is a potentiometer that regulates voltage. If this zero set point is off the entire engine map will be off as well. If the barometric sensor hose is off or leaking the air/fuel mixture will be off as well. Lets say that this line is off. The airbox vacume caused by wide open throttle is not seen by the CPU. It thinks the bike is not experiencing vacume so it doesn't reduce fuel flow to maintain proper fuel air mixture. The engine runs very rich and might only run well at idle when its fuel mixture is set for low vacume and when it is wide open throttle and can handle the extra fuel.

    This might be the problem but it is hard to tell.

    Any of these inputs being off could cause a significant variation in fuel/air ratio. It should be noted that none of us has seen this exact situation to my knowlege. It is important for us as a group to get the solution to this.

    Let's get our heads together and figure this thing out.
    Thanks for the imput. I've lost sleep over this. I've never heard of something like this ever. My neighbour is a pro with BMW, and has never even heard of such a thing, I gave him FUT for a test run, he came back even more shocked than before. weird sh**.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobdavis73 View Post
    Time for some hints.

    Do you smell a strong fuel smell when at idle?
    Does it idle well?
    What RPMs does it mess up at?
    What RPM are you at when it starts running right?

    Bob
    It idles normal. I neutral it works at any RPM and never dies.
    I didn't smell any particular smells.
    It messes at any RPM under lets say 6300 or so and runs just great over that RPMs. I'll have the new spark plugs installed in about three hours and test it. I'll let you know how it works out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    Maybe a silly question, but....

    Have you got any error codes when you put the bike in diagnostic mode?
    None whatsoever. I checked everytime. It actually seemed weird not seeing any error codes, cause I still believe that the problem is somwhere in the electrical system.

    J
    I am not here. What is "here"? Isn't "here" just "there" without a "t" ?

  13. #13
    apriliaforum expert MauriceOz's Avatar
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    Vacuum hoses

    As someone already suggested.

    The plastic/rubber hoses near the engine and leading up to the Throttle bodies get very brittle. when swapping a few bits around I found a couple that had dried out and fell apart when wiggled a few times, not at all obvious but totally screwed up TB synconisation and fuel mixture as the wrong info was sent to the ECU. The worst one was the tubes on the left from a riders perspective of the TB's that have a T piece in them.

    Otherwise I would say check the spark from the coils and then the spark plugs.

    There's plenty of threads on bad coils and how to check, Renault uses the same coils, read Bef's threads on the topic.

    Maurice
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  14. #14
    apriliaforum expert RPB's Avatar
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    If it runs well at high rpm, does it do so in any gear?
    The difference between the gears at high rpm is the throttle position so one would expect that any problems due to a cracked or loose vacuum hose would be more pronounced in either high or low gear. So if there's no difference and certainly if you can't find any problems with vacuum hoses I'd suspect the coils.
    Rob - '01 Rosso Flame

    "Riders Create More Problems Than Motorcycles Are Designed To Handle" - Keith Code

  15. #15
    apriliaforum expert Befbever's Avatar
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    1. starts like a dream (which is unussual)
    2. when it is in neutral gear, works just great
    3. when i ride, it just looses power, rpm and eventually dies.

    4. now, for the best part, the reason why this is the best breakdown ever:

    IT ONLY WORKS PROPPERLY IN VERY HIGH RPM (I'm talking about RPM really close to the limiter).
    Sounds like a coil to me. I had the same thing happen at the dealer's and it turned out to be a coil. No error codes were displayed. On the dyno it ran like crap but can't tell you about high rpm's coz we didn't try them IIRC.

    Why is it unusual that it starts like a dream?
    This Must Be The Place
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