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Thread: please read this before installing a PC3 or updating your ECU

  1. #31
    apriliaforum Junkie SkarTisu's Avatar
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    amauri - do you believe that using an O2 manipulator would be the way to go on an aftermarket exhaust then? Theoretically I think it would be. I don't have the engineering skill to try it though.
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  2. #32
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    That's a good question.
    An even better question is why bother?

    We are always looking to make more power and are encouraged every time someone finds a new product that promises to give us more.
    IMO, the biggest problem is that those who manufacture those products make unrealistic claims and those who sell/install the products need the business and also make unrealistic claims.

    Bottom line is:
    -Before making any changes, make sure your bike is properly tuned in its original stock state. You'd be surprised at how many bikes are not setup correctly because many Techs just don't get it.
    -Adding a PC3 or any other FI tuning device to a bike that is not right to begin with is a waste of money and could just make things worse.
    -Test everything you do and do only one thing at a time.
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  3. #33
    apriliaforum expert Dan M's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=amauri;2083052]That's a good question.
    An even better question is why bother?

    QUOTE]


    Well, I'd think that it would be better to keep fuel control operational. If the issue with changing to aftermarket exhaust is lean running and an O2 manipulator cause enrichment across the range while still keeping feedback working, why not?
    If this manipulator will work it will be a simple plug & play. It is adjustable so there is some tuning possible. It has to be more accurate maintaining a steady fuel ratio than Map 2. No?
    I don't want to beat this to death but I'm interested in if it would flag a lean code. Like I said in an earlier post, if the system is sophisticated enough it will recognize too much fuel correction and set a code. The earlier Ducatis didn't but the later bikes with two O2 sensors did.
    I've been in the auto service business for 28 years and have seen many "snake oil" products making empty promises. Those items are pretty easy to spot. This manipulator looks to be a sound idea as it simply reduces O2 output voltage to fool the computer into adding fuel.
    I'm going to try one once the weather breaks and I can put the bike on a four gas analyzer to see the result.
    Last edited by Dan M; 02-06-2009 at 11:23 AM.
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  4. #34
    apriliaforum Junkie SkarTisu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amauri View Post
    That's a good question.
    An even better question is why bother?

    We are always looking to make more power and are encouraged every time someone finds a new product that promises to give us more.
    IMO, the biggest problem is that those who manufacture those products make unrealistic claims and those who sell/install the products need the business and also make unrealistic claims.

    Bottom line is:
    -Before making any changes, make sure your bike is properly tuned in its original stock state. You'd be surprised at how many bikes are not setup correctly because many Techs just don't get it.
    -Adding a PC3 or any other FI tuning device to a bike that is not right to begin with is a waste of money and could just make things worse.
    -Test everything you do and do only one thing at a time.
    To be pedantic, I'm not out for every last watt of power, personally. I'm trying to get good driveability. After gritting my teeth dealing with the lurching and flat spots on MAP 1 with stock exhausts, I'm looking forward to getting on the road this spring with new exhaust. What I'm hoping to do is get rid of the driveability issues, and it sounds like either MAP 2 + PCIII or MAP 1 + O2 manipulator are possible solutions.

    I'd like to keep the bike in closed loop as well, but I don't know how "good" MAP 1 is, even if I put an O2 manipulator on. I suppose the ultimate solution is an AXONE and dig into the map to adjust it through the advanced functions.
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  5. #35
    apriliaforum expert Dan M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkarTisu View Post
    To be pedantic, I'm not out for every last watt of power, personally. I'm trying to get good driveability. After gritting my teeth dealing with the lurching and flat spots on MAP 1 with stock exhausts, I'm looking forward to getting on the road this spring with new exhaust. What I'm hoping to do is get rid of the driveability issues, and it sounds like either MAP 2 + PCIII or MAP 1 + O2 manipulator are possible solutions.

    I'd like to keep the bike in closed loop as well, but I don't know how "good" MAP 1 is, even if I put an O2 manipulator on. I suppose the ultimate solution is an AXONE and dig into the map to adjust it through the advanced functions.
    I'm no Aprilia expert but I do have a bit of experience with fuel systems and can tell you many flat spots like these are caused by lean running.

    I'd agree that fine tuning with an AXONE is the best way but I have no faith in my local dealer's ability to use it and can't justify the expense of buying one for the little use I will have for it.

    If push comes to shove I'll have no issues switching to MAP2 but I was just trying to keep everything working somewhat as designed.

    I was hoping the experts here could shed some light. The info I've pulled up in the past from the likes of amauri and others is invaluable.
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  6. #36
    apriliaforum Junkie SkarTisu's Avatar
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    It makes sense to me that the flat spots are where the bike is running lean. Thank you European Union for the insane emissions regulations!

    To help my understanding of how closed-loop fueling works, is there still a "map" for fueling when the system is in closed loop, or is that a nonsense concept? In other words, in closed loop, does the ECU strictly look at A/F ratio and constantly adjust only to that? If so, then an O2 manipulator makes sense to me.

    Dyno charts I've seen of stock bikes on MAP1 show the A/F ratio bouncing around through the rev range, so that leads me to believe there is still a fuel map being used. If that's the case, then MAP2 + PCIII + custom map makes the most sense (least nonsense).
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  7. #37
    apriliaforum expert Dan M's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=SkarTisu;2083666]
    To help my understanding of how closed-loop fueling works, is there still a "map" for fueling when the system is in closed loop, or is that a nonsense concept? In other words, in closed loop, does the ECU strictly look at A/F ratio and constantly adjust only to that? If so, then an O2 manipulator makes sense to me.
    QUOTE]

    There is always a map as there needs to be a baseline not only for fuel but ignition timing as well. O2 is only one of the players. Temperature, RPM, throttle position and load all play a roll to "follow the map" so to speak and the info from the O2 allows it to fine tune the mixture.

    In older systems like on my Guzzi and as I understand in MAP2, there is no O2 signal so it can only provide fuel on a fixed calculation based on the other inputs. A good map will be close but every motor is different so O2 feedback is necessary for accuracy. Typically motors can be made to run very well without an O2 signal but they tend to err on the rich side which is not very efficient or clean.

    When monitoring exhaust gas output on a car the difference in unburned & partially burned fuel (H.C. & C.O.) when in open loop compared to closed loop is enormous.


    Sorry if I'm being wordy It's winter.
    Last edited by Dan M; 02-06-2009 at 06:43 PM.
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  8. #38
    apriliaforum Junkie SkarTisu's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info! It's winter here too. I've got all kinds of time to think about things.
    07 Tuono Factory
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  9. #39
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    Hi,
    After having a Falco for years I am just get to grips with my new (to me) Tuono 06. I have just found that a ‘person’ has trashed the ECU (#266531 0001) by not fitting one of the multi pin connectors squarely before he pushed the clamp home. This has pushed one of the pins partially down into the ECU which then snapped. I have got hold off a cheep RSVR Factory 04-07 (#664583 0000) ECU. Can I get a Dealer to load the Tuono map in to it? Any advise would be much appreciated.

  10. #40
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    Sorry but an RSVR ECU will not work on the Tuono.
    Not only will the Tuono software not load but the immobilizer in the Tuono dash will not send the correct code for the RSVR ECU.

    If someone has figured out a workaround, that would be great. But I don't know of one yet.
    Never accept mediocrity, always demand competence.

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  11. #41
    apriliaforum expert Dan M's Avatar
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    Well I had the opportunity to try the O2 manipulator today. It has an adjustment pod so I set it at half scale and went for a ride. After about a mile and a half the service lamp came on. I'm thinking the ECU recognized that too much fuel trim correction was needed and flagged a lean trouble code. I stopped and adjusted the pod to it's lowest setting and got the same result, the service light came on again after about a mile and a half. I then restored it to stock and the light never came back.
    Too bad, I was hoping it would work. The usual slight surge about 4000 rpm was gone. I will try one more thing and clear the ECU's memory and have the manipulator in the mix from the start.
    We'll see....
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  12. #42
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    It gives me a headache to be this stupid.......

    I have read the thread, what I don't get is that if I'm running all stock, build date 04/07; ECU 266533 0000- what MAP and software version should I be running? I'd like to ask my dealer if that is what is loaded.

    On my 600 mile service he switched it over to Map 2 (I believe) he said that the oxygen sensors were out of the loop- but I think it now has a bit of a surge and a bit of hunt at idle. I think I liked it better before, which was probably with the shipped codes.

    Amauri thanks for all the help you've given on this thread. If I get down to So Cal I will definitely stop by!

  13. #43
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    Why the Map-2 switch, you said yours is all stock?

    Look at my list again:

    software for the 07- 08 Tuono (US 07.5), requires AXONE ≥ 5.1.1
    -266533 (file VC5L981$.BIX) original map shipped
    -266534 (file VC5L982$.BIX) for use with EVO-6 pipe

    As you've already noted, the label on your ECU is 266533, that p/n is also the software originally loaded from the factory.
    The only other option is software 266534, but that is only for the EVO6.

    With stock pipes you should be on Map-1



    Quote Originally Posted by xluumchen View Post
    I have read the thread, what I don't get is that if I'm running all stock, build date 04/07; ECU 266533 0000- what MAP and software version should I be running? I'd like to ask my dealer if that is what is loaded.

    On my 600 mile service he switched it over to Map 2 (I believe) he said that the oxygen sensors were out of the loop- but I think it now has a bit of a surge and a bit of hunt at idle. I think I liked it better before, which was probably with the shipped codes.

    Amauri thanks for all the help you've given on this thread. If I get down to So Cal I will definitely stop by!
    Never accept mediocrity, always demand competence.

    Certified Aprilia Moto Service in Southern California
    Call me at 714 892-4056 for appointment

  14. #44
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    Thanks Amauri. Next questions- my dealer is telling me that Map 1 makes it run lean and weak. True? Can you run Map1 but tweak it, or Map2 with the sensors in the loop, and improve things over Map1 as installed?

    Thank you for this valuable information.

  15. #45
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xluumchen View Post
    Thanks Amauri. Next questions- my dealer is telling me that Map 1 makes it run lean and weak. True? Can you run Map1 but tweak it, or Map2 with the sensors in the loop, and improve things over Map1 as installed?
    The answer is in your own post #42 above:

    Quote Originally Posted by xluumchen View Post
    On my 600 mile service he switched it over to Map 2 (I believe) he said that the oxygen sensors were out of the loop- but I think it now has a bit of a surge and a bit of hunt at idle. I think I liked it better before, which was probably with the shipped codes.
    Leave it in Map-1 for stock pipes and don't mess with the adjustments
    Never accept mediocrity, always demand competence.

    Certified Aprilia Moto Service in Southern California
    Call me at 714 892-4056 for appointment

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