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LostinBoston
08-08-2005, 09:57 PM
all this talk about new models coming out. i want this or that or this with that and some of this on the side. so i thought id join the fun.

Id love a RSV750 R for track and street.

thats about it for now.
-RIck

montereyrsvr
08-09-2005, 02:00 PM
I agree, a 748/49 competitor would make inroads into that market and would be an outstanding track bike.

LW Racer
08-09-2005, 02:47 PM
700 cc would be ideal. The 750 twin fans would only sacrifice 50 cc while keeping it in the lightweight class for us club racers.

Prilliant03
08-09-2005, 02:48 PM
all this talk about new models coming out. i want this or that or this with that and some of this on the side. so i thought id join the fun.

Id love a RSV750 R for track and street.

thats about it for now.
-RIck

Not that I'm American, but if it's about new models I'll have my say anyway.

The above idea is exactly what Aprilia need to compete with the japanese 600cc fours. I recently bought a new Duc 749 and it's all anybody ever really needs on the road. A similar and more reasonaby priced aprilia would be a cert for best in class. If Aprilia made something in this market sector I probably wouldn't have defected (again).

montereyrsvr
08-09-2005, 02:49 PM
700 cc would be ideal. The 750 twin fans would only sacrifice 50 cc while keeping it in the lightweight class for us club racers.

In club racing the 748/749 twin is Not allowed in the 600 class?

LW Racer
08-09-2005, 02:58 PM
In club racing the 748/749 twin is Not allowed in the 600 class?

In CCS a twin cylinder liquid cooled is allowed up to 700 cc in lightwieght superbike. 675 cc in lightwieght supersport.

http://www.formulausa.com/forms/2005%20Road%20Race%20Rulebook

billerzal
08-09-2005, 03:07 PM
Here here, a 700 twin would be just the ticket to dominate LW classes in club racing. The additional grunt would also make it a better street bike.

It worries me that we hear about this new LW sportbike being a 550 (or god forbid a 450). Starting with a 100cc disadvantage, you'll always be playing catch-up even with stock-ish SV's, let alone the 90HP ground-pounding SV's I've raced against.

I have no boubt Aprilia will offer something with superior chassis, suspension and brakes (like the RS-250 had) but please offer a motor to match! I would put the RSVR racebike up for sale (since I can't seem to stay on it anyway) and go back to LW, just to stomp all the SV's...

Ally V60
08-09-2005, 03:10 PM
Interesting, but with developement costs :blah: :blah: :blah: would it be profitable, or do Aprilia, say sod it go to lavada and build and develope under licence there 750 engine. With a bit of R&D it would surely make for a cheeper bike alround. I can't seeing them going down to a 700cc engine as the market place would be for direct competition with duc, and Suk's sv. if they built a multitude of model's ala millie/tuono etc around the one engine then there seem to be a masive market waiting to be tuned into

clarkie49
08-09-2005, 03:16 PM
I agree, a 748/49 competitor would make inroads into that market and would be an outstanding track bike.


Ducati has found that the 750 Twin sportsbike market is very very small, they sell a lot more monster's that 748/749's

Prilliant03
08-09-2005, 03:48 PM
Ducati has found that the 750 Twin sportsbike market is very very small, they sell a lot more monster's that 748/749's

That's certainly true. But I wonder how much of that was down to price? The 748/749 is not a cheap bike. The money I spent on my 749 would nearly have bought me a K5 GSXR 1000 if I happened to like that kind of thing.

If Aprilia could build a 700-750 cc twin priced close to the jap 600s i think it would sell pretty well.

clarkie49
08-09-2005, 04:40 PM
That's certainly true. But I wonder how much of that was down to price? The 748/749 is not a cheap bike. The money I spent on my 749 would nearly have bought me a K5 GSXR 1000 if I happened to like that kind of thing.

If Aprilia could build a 700-750 cc twin priced close to the jap 600s i think it would sell pretty well.


you have answere you own question, it is no cheaper to build a 750 twin than a 1000cc twin which has always been the main thing killing the 748/749 market. sure you could build a 'cheap' middleweight twin but Hyosung if taking care of that :D

montereyrsvr
08-09-2005, 04:52 PM
you have answere you own question, it is no cheaper to build a 750 twin than a 1000cc twin which has always been the main thing killing the 748/749 market. sure you could build a 'cheap' middleweight twin but Hyosung if taking care of that :D

I can't see why a Jap I4 is any more or less to build than an Italian V Twin other than the economics of scale. The expected margin total for a given model/year's worth of bikes is the driver behind launching a new bike, at least it seems to me. But anywhere I4 600's or 750 Twins are popular so would be an Aprilia 750 Twin, which IMO would grab market share if reasonably priced.

Dug206
08-09-2005, 05:00 PM
A 750 Twin can run Middleweight classes. Not lightweight. However, a 700 liquid cooled twin with more then 3 valves is legal in lightweight. So are 750 liquid with 3 valves or less and 800 air cooled with any number of valves.

In WERA, there isn't a middleweight twins. Only Heavy and Light weights. The 749 can only run middleweights against the 600's. You rearly see a 749 up front. I think the main reason for that is that all guys that are fast enough to run up front in that class are chasing contingency money from Suzuki mainly. They throw stupid amounts of money out for racing.

Crono
08-12-2005, 02:20 AM
The Duc 748/749 is not selling very well, it needs to be kept at high rev's to be in the powerrrange, not something you are looking at if you want a v-twin. For a bit more money you can have the 999.
The besrt selling Ducati ever is the Monster. However people who want to have a Monster, would also buy a Buell or other streetfighter bikes, "just for the looks". The 748/749 are not used anymore in Supersport races (750 cc V.twins against 600 4 liners) as simply they cannot compete on weight and power delivery.
The same would happen with a 750 Aprillia. Why would Aprilia want to bring a bike that will not be hardly sold?

clarkie49
08-12-2005, 07:21 AM
Aprilia wont build a street bike just to fit into a 'club racing' class, even the idea of that is retarded, especially when after the first year the bike would get banned just like the Laverda did ;)

pbigoney
08-12-2005, 09:13 AM
Is Aprilia going to build anything???? Give me a break, The 450/550 looks wonderful but at best is a low volume seller with limited appeal to the mass market. Less than a Duc 749.
Shoot, they killed the FAlco, CArpo, and the Futura, we have milies, Tunos and left overs from years past still lurking around. Almost no marketing and silence from the folks in GA. So they reinvent the PAgaso and want to sell for a premium??? I'm so unimpressed with them lately I'm begining to wonder. The mags are giving them honerable mentions.
Triumph is busy developing their bikes and developing some nice machinery with unique appeal. Duc is Duc and been loosing ground again. 30 grand and it is compared to a 11k Suzuki when it's best feature is now the sound of the V twin and a little sex appeal. Heck you have to buy the optional exhaust and controller for 3k to make a go of it.
So I suspect dealers will have to migrate else where very soon to stay alive or die a slow and painful death.
I realy like my Falco,think it was a well executed design. SAme for the Milie and Tuno. Time and competition have kept moving while Aprilia has languished. They need to develop bikes for the larger market to keep dealer trafic up. Niche bikes don't keep million dollar investments for a dealership alive. Not selling 10-15 PAgaso's and 10-15 450/550 bikes a year. CAn't sell scooters very well since not all dealers have large metropolitian markets to feed.
ANd the Guzzi thing???? I beleive they lost their following, Triumph and others have gotten this. Can the designs compete with BMW??
I hope they can pull the rabbit from the hat and soon. I'd be real nervous as a dealer and looking to do something. Maybe lawnmowers can supliment volume????

ZeroTwoRSV
08-12-2005, 10:04 AM
Perhaps with the onset of higher petrol prices we will see an onslaught of scooters here in America. We are so prone to fads you know ;) . How about we create a "reality show" where everyone rides a cool scooter, or better yet, Piaggio (Aprilia) should donate a dozen to television shows and let them market for them.

Increased scooter sales will turn into future motorcycle sales, and stepping up from a 50cc scooter to a 550 VTwin can't be bad.

DanB
08-12-2005, 11:13 AM
Is it possible for the 550 motor to be enlarged to 650? I want a small, lightweight Tuono (i.e., sportbike with a reasonable sport-oriented handlebar position for street riding, and minimal bodywork) that weighs less than my SV, with ~15% more power, and excellent suspension components; I'd be willing to pay upwards of $10k for something like that.

I LOVE my Tuono, but it's really more power than I need, and it feels too BIG.

I LIKE my SV, but it's not exactly a work of art, the suspension is crap (even with emulators and 20wt in the damper-rod forks), and could use a hp boost.

How 'bout it, Aprilia?

benya
08-12-2005, 01:00 PM
Crono-
Ducati races the 749 in World Supersport vs the Japanese I4s

MontereyRSVR-
Besides coming from smaller companies with smaller production runs, Italian V-twins are more expensive becuase they are better engineered and use higher quality components. The difference in build quality over the Japanese is remarkable.

I'm sure an Aprilia 749 would be priced better than a Duc, but would still HAVE to be priced higher than a Japanese 600.

I know I am stating the obvious here, but people pay more for quality.

multimoto
08-12-2005, 01:16 PM
Ducati has found that the 750 Twin sportsbike market is very very small, they sell a lot more monster's that 748/749's

Thats what I was thinking.. a 750 twin Tuono.

clarkie49
08-12-2005, 02:02 PM
Thats what I was thinking.. a 750 twin Tuono.

how about a 750 twin 'Turbo' :D

lunchbox
08-12-2005, 02:08 PM
Ducati has found that the 750 Twin sportsbike market is very very small, they sell a lot more monster's that 748/749's
Ducati sell more monsters than every other bike they sell combined.

Crono
08-16-2005, 07:26 AM
Benya,

I know they still have the 749 in the Supersport, but what are the results?? and for any factory more important, how does that translate in sales?

williamr
08-17-2005, 02:39 AM
[QUOTE=benya]Crono-
Besides coming from smaller companies with smaller production runs, Italian V-twins are more expensive becuase they are better engineered and use higher quality components. The difference in build quality over the Japanese is remarkable.

QUOTE]

The truth is more that people pay for style or to be different. Italian bikes are better enginered as bikes, but Jap bikes are better engineered for production and the build quality (not the same as the component quality) is far better than the Ialians. Italian electrics would make Joe Lucas blush, and he was known as 'Prince of Darkness' over here.

I ride non-jap bikes because hey have character, but Italian build quality.....no way.

Rob

GeoR
08-17-2005, 06:28 AM
I've been asking for the same.....not too big, not too small (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61492&page=1&pp=15)

john flores
08-17-2005, 06:48 AM
Ducati sell more monsters than every other bike they sell combined.

...a line of bikes to compete with the Monster? Nakeds are a fast-growing segment of the market, so maybe the next generation Falco/Tuono in a variety of sizes (small - 450, mid - 700, large - 1000) should be Noale's first priority.

FWIW, Multistradas are selling very well too, so maybe a new Capo?

Both these types of bikes have a chance at striking at the fastest growing segments - re-entrant empty nesters and women.

my $.02

williamr
08-17-2005, 08:38 AM
My personal requirement is a sports commuter, so a narrow, lightweight v-twin, with anything over 60 bhp would do - 80 would be more than enough. Priority is light weight, which equates with good handling and brakes, and a decent range - >300 miles.

My preference is lower revs and more torque, so I prefer a bigger engine, but that has to be balanced against the weight - 750cc is about the top limit. As I only ride on the road I want easy 100mph cruising, which means a real top speed of about 120 - anything more is wasted, but I don't know if there's a market for slow bikes with extremely good handling so I won't worry if lt's faster than that.

Weather protection (fairing with QD lowers for summer?) is essential for me, as is luggage carrying capability for occasional touring, but I dont have a problem fitting aftermarket kit to naked bike. Lack of availability of such kit, with proper fittings, would of course disqualify any bike.

I don't care what it looks like. As long as the engineering and functional specs meet my needs better than anything else, confirmed by a test ride, I'll buy it.

Rob

go_modem_go
08-20-2005, 08:38 PM
Aprilia's Noale factory is scheduled to build such an intermediate bike from next year - But it will be labelled BMW T800 ;)

http://www.bmw-ok.com/images/bmw-ok/bmwt800190.jpg http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mike.werner/BlogPics/BMW-T800-Spy1.jpg

2 Cylinder Twin from Rotax, 800cc in it's largest version, could come in a smaller version as well.

However, I'd rather have a new Falco than a smallish intermediate 700cc bike to compete for a few dozen sales in the highly competitive sub 700cc entry market (SV, Er6-N, etc).

Aprilia: GIVE US A NEW FALCO!

GeoR
08-20-2005, 10:11 PM
A parallel twin fine tuned by BMW.....where's the puke emoticon?? :lame:

I'm so NOT interested.

go_modem_go
08-21-2005, 04:40 PM
I'm so NOT interested.The motorbike Couriers, city police, commuters and re-entry folks of this world need a proper bike as well.

Let them have the BMW T600 - T800. I am sure it will be overpriced and bland, but durable and well-built.

For us Aprilia fans it means that the factory in Noale is fully utilised and reaping in a profit from assembling lot's of boring rubber-belt 600-800cc Beamer paralell twins.

Fine by me, if it helps to fund for a proper Falco replacement! I don't see myself on either a Mille or a Tuono, although I am eager to learn what the new Tuono is going to be like.

novos
08-24-2005, 12:53 AM
Wouldnt it just be a giant riot if it turns out that this forum is in fact, partly to blame for the timetable for the release of whatever it is that aprilia comes out with next? With all of us sporting an erection for a smaller sized RSV, I've seen everything from a 450, 550, 600, 650, 700, 750, 800, and a 900 asked for.
I'd be willing to bet money that no matter what displacement aprilia decides to make, a good percentage of this forum will piss and moan because it wasn't the displacement they wanted, unless aprilia decides to build every single displacement to please everyone.
You can pick from your RSV 499, 450cc, 451cc, 452cc, 453cc, etc...

Although if they actually did that, people would piss and moan because they're building too broad a spectrum of engine sizes. :rolleyes:

Beyote
08-24-2005, 01:29 AM
Just give me a competitive bike. Soemthing that is represented on the track, preferably WSB. I know about the rumor of an I4, if so, please, please say it has the firing order of the Kaw ZXRR or the Yam M1. They sound so sweet, and would be a fresh break from the common sound and characteristics of the Japanese cookie cutter, disposable I4s. I love the Mille/Factory, but would like to know that my model is raced and be able to hang with some cheaper bikes. I am not asking for 170 bhp, just around 140-145 bhp, in stock trim. If I spend $15k for it, I shouldn't have to spend another $3k just for an engine upgrade.

Still love ya Clarkie.

Good coverage in that stunters magazine. I have no clue if it is old, as we take what we can get in Iraq.

clarkie49
08-24-2005, 07:10 AM
Beyote - I hear ya man :) stock the 'new' bike should push out 140-145hp at the rear wheel in whatever configuration they decide (twin, tripple, four), that way i can chase 180hp :D

If the 'stunta' magazine is the Ferrari Modena vs the Aprilia that has just come out here a coupel of weeks ago, pretty cool article, just a little out of place in that magazine :D


Novo - remember it takes 3 years for a motorcycle to go from design to sale, in the US it takes around 10 months to get through the DOT testing phase which is why the KTM 950 Supermotard comes with carbs instead of fuel injection. any time you change the intake or exhaust design you have to go through DOT testing again.

GeoR
08-24-2005, 08:13 AM
Wouldnt it just be a giant riot if it turns out that this forum is in fact, partly to blame for the timetable for the release of whatever it is that aprilia comes out with next?

I think that you're exagerating somewhat....a lot.
The way I see it a lot of people are excited about the new supermoto (450-550) but there's also a section that consider a larger bike would be more useful on US roads.

750 for the ones that want to compete against the 600s, a little larger for the ones that want a torquier bike for the street and wish for a shrunken V60

All together that makes for only 3 engines blocks, each in 2 displacements ( a short stroke race version and long stroke torquier version)

Small: 450SMoto-550RSV
Medium: 750RSV-850 street/touring
Large: 1000 RSV-1200 street/touring

With only probably 3 frames (one per engine), optional mix and match plastic, seats, bars, and assorted parts bin Aprilia could have a complete lineup -a model for just about everyone.

Also, while I have no use for a SM but I won't "riot" if they make one available. On the opposite I think that would be neat.

:peace:

clarkie49
08-24-2005, 08:24 AM
only 6 more engines ......you dont want much do you :D

go_modem_go
08-24-2005, 08:39 AM
All together that makes for only 3 engines blocks, each in 2 displacements ( a short stroke race version and long stroke torquier version)

Small: 450SMoto-550RSV
Medium: 750RSV-850 street/touring
Large: 1000 RSV-1200 street/touring
You forget the realities of the European market. At a minumum, Aprilia needs following line up to still serve it's largest money generating markets:

Very Small: 50cc 2-stroke
Small: 125cc 2-stroke AND a new 125cc 4-stroke (a new reality on the 125cc market, due to stricter enviro laws. A 125cc Ditch would do as well)
Medium Street Super moto / Enduro: 660cc one cylinder
Medium SM / Race: 450-550 V2 (ex-250cc 2stroke market inexistant as of now?)
Intermediate: 750
Large: 1000-1200

Plus the 50cc, 125cc, 150-200, 250cc, and 500cc scooter platforms. But they will be served via Piaggio anyway (engines are mostly from Piaggio anyway).

The 450 V2 and 750 V2 market are only a tiny fraction of the large 50cc, 125cc, 650 mono and 1000cc market on Aprilias home pitch. I seriously doubt that Aprilia will come up with an intermediate 750 bike - it's just not worth the effort to build an own frame / platform for that. Even the Duc 749 is only a lighter engine dropped into a 999 1-litre frame.

Aprilia should attempt a proper Falco Sports Tourer replacement. When I'm in for a new bike, it propably won't be an Aprilia RSV or Tuono - I just don't like the RSV full-fairing Race Replica style, and imo there are better looking streetfighters than the Tuono.

GeoR
08-24-2005, 08:45 AM
only 6 more engines ......you dont want much do you :D


Nope: 3 engines only, with a bored/stroked version of each.
While I understand that a whole new engine is expensive to develop -particularly in Europe, it seems the Japanese have no trouble in that aspect- I don't think that offering two choices of bore and stroke for a particular block is such a big deal for a manufacturer. At least it shouldn't be.

The frames could be optimised for the smaller, race version. With removable rear subfames, different triple clamps and choice of swingarm, linkage etc the race chassis could be easily adapted into a street/touring one.
So 3 engines/3 frames = a complete new line of bikes.

GeoR
08-24-2005, 08:57 AM
The 749 went through the opposite process : a big bike stroked/bored down is still a big bike...with less torque

Yeah you're right I'm not taking into account the scooter market, nor do I have to...really. Do you want to tell Suzuki that the 650 V2 market is a waste of time? Or Ducati for that matter that sells a ton of 600/750/800 variants.

Litre1
08-24-2005, 09:22 AM
Best scenario IMO is that they make a 700cc twin with a limited production run of 750's like Kawasaki did for the 600/636 (only in reverse). They could make a chassis for it that will accomodate either the 450, 700, or 750 engine. That way they are making one chassis for several bikes, but keeping it on the smaller side instead of doing the 749/999 type that Ducati does. The Limited Edition 750 is pricier to make up for the lower priced 450, plus the 450 has Sachs shock and non-radial brakes since it will be aimed at commuters more than road racing.

This is, of course, assuming they can produce a 750 with enough power to compete with the I4 600's...

go_modem_go
08-24-2005, 09:31 AM
The 749 went through the opposite process : a big bike stroked/bored down is still a big bike...with less torque

Yeah you're right I'm not taking into account the scooter market, nor do I have to...really. Do you want to tell Suzuki that the 650 V2 market is a waste of time? Or Ducati for that matter that sells a ton of 600/750/800 variants.You have a point, but Aprilia needs to straighten out their 1 litre line first, before taking on new adventures.

Aprilia is loosing sales due to a lack of a 1000-1200cc Tourer and 1100 Sports Tourer is missing as well - R1100S is extremely popular here. Give us a sporty new Aprilia half-fairing alternative! They just have to market it right if they bring it on.

It's a pity that the excellent new Aprilia 450-550 V2 propably doesn't really allow a larger version -750 is way too large for that engine block. SV's are selling like hot cakes, even the Koreans came out with an excellent copy in form of the Hyosung 650 Comet (or whatever it's called) - Aprilia could serve the top-end entry market like Ducati does with the 620's...

Well, at least the 450-550 V2 Supermoto will be out soonish. The Futura replacement is supposed to be in the pipeline, if Piaggio hasn't stopped the project. Tuono due soon as well...

Let's take it from there, Aprilia is a little company with a small engineering department - It was an Aprilia / Beggio tradition to outsource as much as they can! The new 550 V2 seems to be first in-house developed engine from Aprilia.

Litre1
08-24-2005, 09:41 AM
I have heard a little about the '06 Tuono and I'm excited about the changes they are making--reshaped upper fairing and headlight, tail. Maybe if they offer some clipons and luggage, it could serve as the sport tourer also.

GeoR
08-24-2005, 09:46 AM
You have a point, but Aprilia needs to straighten out their 1 litre line first, before taking on new adventures.
.

I don't claim to know which should be first, what I did is propose a strategy for the whole line up. Probably you're right, and the big bikes should be first so as not to lose the existing client base.

The SVX is ready, there's no reason not to bring to market soon.
Having said that I think they could sell a lot more intermediate bikes (at a profit) than SM or mini RSVs....and a 600L4 is not the way to go about it.

clarkie49
08-24-2005, 10:03 AM
Nope: 3 engines only, with a bored/stroked version of each.


if it is a 60' twin that would mean a redesign for each engine, same with the 45' i believe, a 90' twin is easy to change without any issues ;)

clarkie49
08-24-2005, 10:10 AM
Best scenario IMO is that they make a 700cc twin with a limited production run of 750's like Kawasaki did for the 600/636 (only in reverse)...

to make it worth it financially they have to be able to sell 300 units in the firt year of sale, 600 in the second year. not saying they couldnt do it but with everyone screaming about how bad Aprilia suck why would anyone want to buy one :)




This is, of course, assuming they can produce a 750 with enough power to compete with the I4 600's...

Aprilia said a few years ago that they wouldnt build a 750 until it was 'better' than a 600, the 750 Duc isnt as good as the 600's so dont expect a '600 competitor' Supersport race bike ;)

go_modem_go
08-24-2005, 10:10 AM
..and a 600L4 is not the way to go about it.Absolutely agree. Too many of them about, 600cc l4's are the equivalent of the hot hatch car market. Aprilia needs to maintain a certain exclusivity and differentiate itself from others in order to survive.

But let's face it, Aprilia has never had a consistant image across all classes of bikes. Don't forget that all of Aprilia's profits comes from small bikes and scooters:

50cc scooters: affordable high-tech and retro-fashion
50cc-125-250cc 2 stroke bikes: Sporty upmarket race replicas, the reference
650cc enduro: fashionable street-capable commuters
1000cc: Bulletproof affordable italian spirit

go_modem_go
08-24-2005, 10:40 AM
I always wondered why they didn't pursue the Blue Marlin and Hurricane concept for the Tuono, and a retro-bike. The 2001 Tuono prototype also looks better than what we got (except those double pipes):

http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewBikeCatalogue/2002/Aprilia/Blue_Marlin/naked_05.jpghttp://www.mcnews.com.au/NewBikeCatalogue/2002/Aprilia/Blue_Marlin/naked_06.jpg
http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/4971/hurricanebluemarlin0ko.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4328/tuonoproto20013vg.jpg

GeoR
08-24-2005, 04:00 PM
I think the gas tank on the Marlin was much too small for a decent airbox.
I was interested in the Mana myself -another no show.