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View Full Version : Tried 5 new PCIII maps....and WOW!



scott2ride
09-18-2004, 07:34 PM
Edit (this was from 2004... must have been bumped up :D )

It will be 5 weeks till my dyno time to get my custom map done. So in the mean time I tried the maps from...
Clarkie
Mossback
Dvus
CC
and Colins 'UK Aprilia map.

All the maps were for an 04 RSV with air kit, open pipes, flapper etc. And guess what......


NOTHING! Narda, Noubt, Zippo.... not a friggen difference.

All the maps seemed to download fine to the PC3 with conformation on screen. But Im not sure if the PC3 is actually working.

Stinky... did you sell me a dud? :D

I just had the upgrade to the new 5.0.2 Map 2 and the bike is running well. But when uploading these maps it seems to run exactly the same????

And they have vastly different fuel curves. What gives?

Admittedly my testing was non scientific.

I took the bike out to a long straight bit of road in the countyrside and had the PC3 USB cable plugged in all the time, and just sticking out from under the seat. I took my laptop with me and peoceeded to upload a map, do some runs, upload another map, do some more runs...etc.

Mainly I would sit at 100kph in 6th and wind on the throttle and count how long it took to get to 150kph. (Yes I know...very unscientific).

It took 6 seconds..... No matter which map it took 6 seconds???

I stayed sitting upright and just wound on the throttle..... 6 seconds.

And there fuel curves are sooo different in the 4-8000 rpm range.

i ALSO GAVE IT A GENERAL THRASH UP THRUGH 2ND, 3RD AND FORTH TO RED LINE, AND NONE OF THEM SEEMED BETTER OR WORSE than with a 0 map (Opps, sorry about the cap lock)

Any thoughts?

Arnie
09-18-2004, 08:06 PM
Scott,
I have the same problem with mine. According to my tuner the bike is running in a closed loop even with map 2. Per Aprilia map 2 is an open loop and map 1 is closed loop. But that wasn't what my tuner was detecting.

Suspecting my dealer hadn't loaded map2 properly it must have reverted back to map 1. Took it back to the dealer again.

Long story short he couldn't tune my bike. You need an open loop so the PCIII will work. Good luck.

MDRSV
09-18-2004, 09:13 PM
Now that I am back in town and the last bits of Ivan have passed I will try other maps as well. I will also upload my custom map.......I'll give the results tomorow...

scott2ride
09-18-2004, 11:02 PM
Good point Arnie. But I just had it swopped to map 2 on Friday and confirmed it was done. Go fark knows?

I wonder If I should create a bullshit crap map and make it super rich, and load it and see what happens. If there is no change it must be the PC3 or a closed loop.

Come to think of it. Even with a closed loop the PC3 should work. The closed loop wont be making any adjustments and the PC3 will just add to the base curve wont it?

How does the cloased and open loop work?

Dr. Thrillride
09-18-2004, 11:15 PM
try these Scotty...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34373&highlight=loop

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34453 (http://)

stinky
09-18-2004, 11:33 PM
In closed loop mode, the ECU is using feedback from the O2 sensor to make fueling adjustments, negating the effects of the pc3.

Open loop mode is where the bike's computer is just using what's in the map - the pc3's adjustments take effect in this mode, as it intercepts what's coming from the ECU and either adds or subtracts fuel based on rpm and throttle position.

The pc3 I sold ya Scotty was indeed making a difference for me, just didn't make the bike run as smooth as it did after I got the latest map 2 loaded without the pc3.

You should try downloading the map from the pc3 after you load it, just to make sure it's gotten in there. Also watch the throttle position indicator on the screen while you've got your laptop connected, and make sure it goes up when you give her some throttle - if the tps connection isn't good, then it will always sense the same throttle position and you'll essentially be using a one-column (or one row) map.

MDRSV
09-19-2004, 05:05 PM
That was a good idea to watch the TPS...I got rid of the scotch lock connector on the TPS by splicing the wire and sodering it....

scott2ride
09-19-2004, 05:11 PM
That is good advice Steve. I will go upstairs and check this morning :D

And I will solder the connection too.

By the way. I connected it to the middle greyish wire, as per the instructions. But I note the photo on the instructions has an arrow pointing to the wire on the end?

So which wire should it be connected to????

Also, I followed their instructions and used a multi meter to check the wire had about 0.5v when the throttle was closed and 4.5v when open. But the volts didnt change for any of the throttle positions. (The bike ignition was on but the bike wasnt running.)



And its my birthday today... Yippieeeeeeee:banana: :banana:

Lots of sex, good food, booze and a ride..

Hmmm, just like any other weekend realy :D

stinky
09-19-2004, 06:01 PM
Happy birhday, Scott!! :banana: :banana: :banana:

As for the tps...it's the red wire...no wait! the blue wire...

It's the one in the middle - the connector has room for 4 wires, only 3 are connected. It's the middle one. If the voltage was changing with throttle movement, then you're connected. With the laptop connected and the engine running, you can be absolutely sure by watching the display while you twist the throttle a little.

Exdukenut
09-19-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by scott2ride
And its my birthday today... Yippieeeeeeee:banana: :banana:

Lots of sex, good food, booze and a ride..

Hmmm, just like any other weekend realy :D

What you only get sex on weekends.....you unlucky sod! : :D :D

Happy birthday though!;)

:cool:

scott2ride
09-19-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Exdukenut
What you only get sex on weekends.....you unlucky sod! : :D :D
:cool:

Pay attention Leigh, I said "Lots of sex" on weekends. During week days it is only a moderate amount :D

I love you too CC. I miss you sooo much when you are banned.....;) :p: :ban:

And Steve, thanks for getting my PCIII present to me in time :happy: Hope I can get it working:rolleyes: :D

Hmmm, I must check those links posted by the Dr.

Cheers

Dr. Thrillride
09-19-2004, 07:36 PM
Ah no worries about the links, Clarkie had some good info in there was all (I think he's in vegas, so no reply on the loop issue from him). Sounds like you've got it handled and Stinky explained it.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

Floyde
02-02-2005, 09:04 AM
My PCIII arrived yesterday and its worrying me that your asking so many questions about just installing it... I was under the impression it was easy!!

*groan*

:confused:

scott2ride
02-02-2005, 03:03 PM
It is easy, but mine had no instructions with it.

Just make sure you get the front and rear cylinders connected correctly.

When are you getting the custom map done? In the mean time use my custom map. I'll email it to you. It has the front and rear mapped seperately.

Floyde
02-02-2005, 03:08 PM
what ya mean about making sure you get the front and rear done properly?? The instructions say do the right hand side and connect the 2 pc3 leads then do the other side.. dosent specifically say which one of the pair of wires out the pc3 goes to which side?

yeah that map would be a start chap !! :)

these are the instructions I was going to follow... (http://www.powercommander.com/maps/install/I908-411.pdf)

scott2ride
02-02-2005, 03:22 PM
Exactly... Except if you connect them wrong...as I did, it can stuff up the guys doing the mapping when they do the front and rear seperately.

So...
Check that the orange wires from the PCIII usb are going to the Front Cylinder. NOTE: This means the Orange PC# wire plugs into the the RIGHT side injector... This injector plug looks like it is for the rear injector, but in fact is for the FRONT cylinder.

In other words, plug the orange wire into the injector plug that is on the RIGHT side of the Throttle body.

Then open your PC3 software and put it into "ADVANCED mode. This will let the left and right be done separately.

I'll email it to you now.

Floyde
02-02-2005, 03:28 PM
So...
Check that the orange wires from the PCIII usb are going to the Front Cylinder. NOTE: This means the Orange PC# wire plugs into the the RIGHT side injector...which is for the FRONT cylinder.

In other words, plug the orange wire into the injector plug that is on the RIGHT side of the Throttle body.

Arr right nice one... their mad cause they dont say anything in the instructions about that or colour of wires!! I just looked at me PC3 and yes there are orange wires... so these go to RIGHT and the others go to the LEFT and then do the Throttle sensor thingy with the clip... sweet.




Then open your PC3 software and put it into "ADVANCED mode. This will let the left and right be done seperately.

I'll email it to you now.


OK, so open the software and stick into advanced. I guess when I then upload the map from the lappy it will do the left and right seperatly.. its all automated yeah?

I'll have to put you on me Xmas card list... or TT accomadation list :)

aprillia
02-03-2005, 01:53 AM
In closed loop mode, the ECU is using feedback from the O2 sensor to make fueling adjustments, negating the effects of the pc3.

Open loop mode is where the bike's computer is just using what's in the map - the pc3's adjustments take effect in this mode, as it intercepts what's coming from the ECU and either adds or subtracts fuel based on rpm and throttle position.

So, basically PC3 makes the bike run on an open loop system then? Will you then have different maps made for different weather, atmospheric etc. conditions?

MDRSV
02-03-2005, 07:26 AM
So, basically PC3 makes the bike run on an open loop system then? Will you then have different maps made for different weather, atmospheric etc. conditions?

No, the PCIII only stores one map. It would be nice for a PC to have the ability to store multiple maps and let you switch them on the fly. In fact this should be something not too terribly hard to do. Just more internal memory and some type of external selector switch. For turbo cars a company called APR will let you do just that using the cruise control of your car to switch different boost maps.

All the PC does is hijack the pulses going to the throttle body fuel injector and either lenghtens or shortens the duration of the pulse. In effect leaning or enrichining the mixture. It does not read any sensor data except the TPS. IMO its not a "real" map because its not reading and air mass, pressure or temperture data.

I car people can crack the ODBII code someone should be able to hack the CAN bus the priller uses.

clarkie49
02-03-2005, 09:11 AM
The Yoshimure EMS unit has three maps with a bar switch to change between them, the EMS is/was made by Dynojet so it is definitely possible.

it would be cool to have a 'getting to the twistys' map and a 'ripping through the twistys' map :cool:

scott2ride
02-03-2005, 04:16 PM
Aprilia, Map one is closed loop and map two is open loop.



MDRSV is correct in that the PC3 only has one map and simply adds also tracks fuel at various points in the fuel range.



However in effect it may still read the atmospheric conditions and adjust the bike accordingly. This is because I believe the existing bike's ECU still makes fuel adjustments and changes to the fuel when it gets input from the sensors and when it does, the PC3 map is still overlayed on top of it therefore moves up or down as well.

In other words. if the base map 2 has 5 units of fuel at 3000rmp, and the PC3 added 3 units of fuel, then the total fuel at 3000 rpm would be 8 units.

But if the base ecu reads the bikes sensors and decides to put 10 units of fuel at 3000rpm, the PC3 still adds its 3 units at that point, and the total fuel would now be 13 units at 3000.

Is that correct Clarkie?

mossback
02-03-2005, 10:55 PM
Happy birthday Scott,

Now can I have a copy of your custom map???


:)

:burnout:



Aprilia, Map one is closed loop and map two is open loop.



MDRSV is correct in that the PC3 only has one map and simply adds also tracks fuel at various points in the fuel range.



However in effect it may still read the atmospheric conditions and adjust the bike accordingly. This is because I believe the existing bike's ECU still makes fuel adjustments and changes to the fuel when it gets input from the sensors and when it does, the PC3 map is still overlayed on top of it therefore moves up or down as well.

In other words. if the base map 2 has 5 units of fuel at 3000rmp, and the PC3 added 3 units of fuel, then the total fuel at 3000 rpm would be 8 units.

But if the base ecu reads the bikes sensors and decides to put 10 units of fuel at 3000rpm, the PC3 still adds its 3 units at that point, and the total fuel would now be 13 units at 3000.

Is that correct Clarkie?

scott2ride
02-04-2005, 01:44 AM
Sure...you have mail

aprillia
02-04-2005, 01:57 AM
Aprilia, Map one is closed loop and map two is open loop.


I think someone mentioned earlier that map one and two both work as closed loop. Anyone know for sure?

clarkie49
02-04-2005, 09:05 AM
Aprilia, Map one is closed loop and map two is open loop.



MDRSV is correct in that the PC3 only has one map and simply adds also tracks fuel at various points in the fuel range.



However in effect it may still read the atmospheric conditions and adjust the bike accordingly. This is because I believe the existing bike's ECU still makes fuel adjustments and changes to the fuel when it gets input from the sensors and when it does, the PC3 map is still overlayed on top of it therefore moves up or down as well.

In other words. if the base map 2 has 5 units of fuel at 3000rmp, and the PC3 added 3 units of fuel, then the total fuel at 3000 rpm would be 8 units.

But if the base ecu reads the bikes sensors and decides to put 10 units of fuel at 3000rpm, the PC3 still adds its 3 units at that point, and the total fuel would now be 13 units at 3000.

Is that correct Clarkie?



yeah something like that ;)

Flashfish
03-17-2007, 10:28 AM
I have to assume right side is index finger for orange wire. Purchased the PCIII from the forum and ran it with the previous owners loaded Map, it was absolute crap for my bike. CC_Ferracci Map added instant grunt. Need comformation about injector placement before I load and try Scotts.

scott2ride
03-17-2007, 05:52 PM
I have to assume right side is index finger for orange wire. Purchased the PCIII from the forum and ran it with the previous owners loaded Map, it was absolute crap for my bike. CC_Ferracci Map added instant grunt. Need comformation about injector placement before I load and try Scotts.

Errr... Nope...

You are on the LEFT side of the bike... and are pointing at the front cyl, but the rear injector plug...

the RIGHT side would be the other side :D.
The way to work out which is your left and which is your right side is to do this...

Hold up both hands with thumbs pointing inwards and fingers pointing up. One of them creates an L shape... :lame: this is your Left. L stands for Loser... or Left!!!

The other hand is the right hand.

Now sit on the bike and the right hand drops down to your right knee... and the right side injector is there :D

He he... :kidding:

The orange wire goes to the RIGHT injector plug. The RIGHT injector plug is for the front cylinder... it just looks like it is for the rear. :D

Hope that helps :bump:

Flashfish
03-17-2007, 08:24 PM
Recommend not installing power commander and quickshifter after sniffing aceton and thinners for 2 hours (EVO Air box mod). :lame: Thanks for the reply.

hakan_olsson
03-18-2007, 02:36 AM
Last edited by scott2ride : Today at 04:35 AM.


I was confused for a moment there -- but now I'm not. Did you edit the orange -right/left? :cathat:

scott2ride
03-18-2007, 06:01 AM
I was confused for a moment there -- but now I'm not. Did you edit the orange -right/left? :cathat:

I shall not admit to confusing myself while attempting to take the piss out of Flashfish... for such an admission would be... well... stupid! :bump:





PS: I hoped no-one noticed cos I was really really fast!

fourfortwo
03-18-2007, 09:34 AM
hi guys - i realise it has probably been done to death ,but i'm new to this. I have an 06 rsv (and very happy with it too after years of in line 4's) and have just fitted akra sp's and have booked it into dealers to change to map 2. Do i also need a pcIII or anything else?
thanks

RSV Racing
03-18-2007, 12:08 PM
Depends on how good your bike runs with map 2. Some apparently run great and don't need it, some run rubbish and do need it.

Ride it first and then decide how it runs and if it is worth it to you to do it.

Just make sure they tune it right with map 2, because if you have to get a
PC3 you better get a map done and that gets expensive once you add it all.
Although someone else's map might work good for you.

:burnout:

scott2ride
03-18-2007, 03:58 PM
What RSV Racing said!!!:bump: :D

basically, it may run really well after changing to map 2. Just wait and see.

I recommend reading the thread/sticky at the start of this forum about PC3 and Map 2.

Secondly... MAKE SURE they balance the Throttle bodies correctly or your on/off throttle response will be crap. Do a search on this. And ask them about balancing the TBs and do they balance them evenly do set them unevenly with Front +30mb more?

if they look confused then either find another dealer or print them out the guide to setting the TBs properly. (It is in one of the threads if you search. Or PM me your email address and I will send one I made up to you.

fourfortwo
03-19-2007, 05:03 PM
thanks for the info - i'l do the research as you suggest. By the way when i changed the cans i there was a noticible improvement in top end pull , but i'm nervous about not changing the map as the general advice is it will run lean and cause damage.:worship:

ckruzel
03-19-2007, 06:40 PM
i got a pretty fat map for headers and airbox

scott2ride
03-20-2007, 05:20 AM
...but i'm nervous about not changing the map as the general advice is it will run lean and cause damage.:worship:

Dont listen to halfwits that tell you that Map 2 might hurt the bike. Aprilia designed map 2 to run with open pipes!

Micah / AF1 Racing
03-20-2007, 09:01 AM
Maybe one of these will be more your speed. These are all based on either RSVR 2004 or newer or 2006 and newer Tuonos with airkit and slip on pipes and of course for Map 2 only. These were all final versions of T06 maps and I use them as base maps when tyuning T06-T07 and RSVR. All maps we send out with customers are pretty much cusrtom to their bike.

ckruzel
03-20-2007, 11:22 AM
scott, if you want to try mine your welcome to it

scott2ride
03-21-2007, 03:02 AM
scott, if you want to try mine your welcome to it

Im sweet, but thanks for the offer.

Er... unless you were referring to your wife? :bump: Then I'll reconsider :cheers:

millemille
03-21-2007, 03:29 AM
I thought from previous discussion that the lambda sensor Aprilia fitted wasn't wideband, but narrow band? The closed loop mapping can only work at low rpm or low %age tps. WOT sweep testing will be relying on open loop, once the rpm clears the emissions testing threshold, even in Map 1.

Steve / AF1 Racing
03-21-2007, 09:56 AM
The difference in the maps I posted and probably all the others is that they are done in steady state on an eddy brake dyno and I know 100% for sure that I, not the stupid narrow band lamdba had control over part throttle cruise mixture.

Total time in the maps I posted is probably 10 plus hours of dyno time and these maps are running sweet in a lot of bikes (late model) 06-07's. Who knows though, they may suck on different fuel formulas and in different countries if perhaps some base mappings are different.

BTW...JUST REALIZED STEVE MUST HAVE BEEN THE LAST TO USE THIS COMPUTER.

MICAH

Flashfish
03-23-2007, 08:49 AM
Maybe one of these will be more your speed. These are all based on either RSVR 2004 or newer or 2006 and newer Tuonos with airkit and slip on pipes and of course for Map 2 only. These were all final versions of T06 maps and I use them as base maps when tyuning T06-T07 and RSVR. All maps we send out with customers are pretty much cusrtom to their bike.


Observation only. 2Nd cylinder (Fuel Map 2) has an identical maps in all 3 cases, where Cylinder 1st changers in varying degrees. Your base maps in my opinion are out. So far I have collected 7 Maps that are worth keeping and comparing but the three you provided have been relegated. I understand the theory behind a base map but!


No expert, Observation only.

Flash

Flashfish
03-23-2007, 08:58 AM
I have my super computer working on the best average map right now. I will be upgrading to a 386 next year, which should make things a bit easier, so you might have to wait!

derrickhackman
03-23-2007, 09:24 AM
Flashfish how did you read the raw data from the pc3 *.djm files? You had to read in the fuel tables and then compute the average for each rpm and throttle position then post that average (or mean) back to the same throttle position and fule 'cell'.

The tricky part is getting the data out of the pc3 file.

Micah / AF1 Racing
03-23-2007, 09:47 AM
My maps are disfferent for a reason...just ride them and try them out..maybe one works for your set up. Yes I know they have a strange look sometimes but it is just what the particular bike/motor needs to run right.

Johnnycab
05-15-2007, 10:12 PM
1. On the power commander software fuel table 1 is this the front cylinder (orange injector / right side) and fuel table 2, is the (left) rear cylinder...

2. I'm just learning this software and it's pretty easy to under stand, but on Micah's T06 map he has some big differences, 20 - 30 point swing between the 2 tables. post # 37 page 3

3. I do know that my bike runs lean < 17:1 over 7000 rpm's
I'm running a K&N filter with cored pipes and flaper valve capped off, 15 tooth. 122hp 72 tq

Micah's map does make a big difference throught, but is it still lean I see alot of - numbers from 7000 to 9000

please help thanks john

theknurl
05-16-2007, 12:16 AM
johnnycab,
put a lambda meter on your bike and you can "see" A/F ratios realtime other wise you're working in the dark.
Noel-theknurl

pbas
05-16-2007, 07:04 AM
Flashfish how did you read the raw data from the pc3 *.djm files? You had to read in the fuel tables and then compute the average for each rpm and throttle position then post that average (or mean) back to the same throttle position and fule 'cell'.

The tricky part is getting the data out of the pc3 file.
Piece o piss really. Download the PC3 software.
Load the maps, copy n paste into Excel. One map per sheet.
Use the AVERAGE function to create a new map/sheet with the average values.
Copy n paste back into PC3 software.
Done!

Johnnycab
05-16-2007, 05:43 PM
johnnycab,
put a lambda meter on your bike and you can "see" A/F ratios realtime other wise you're working in the dark.
Noel-theknurl

Thanks i'm looking for 1 now. I wasen't in the mood for a $200-400 custom map. This is my comuter / Track bike

Is it posible to use the (STOCK)o2 sensor with a digital gauge, or do I need a gauge & new sensor / wide-narrow

HELP IS OUR O2 SENSOR A NARROW OR WIDE, I haven't checked voltage output yet, i'm not sure what I need