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shakefu
03-16-2019, 07:53 PM
Hi,
I have a bike which has had coolant boiling issues for a while now but since itís been rarely ridden, I havenít had a chance to dig into it.

Last time I had it out, bike was stabile while moving above 50mph with 176F on the dash and 70F air temperature. Soon as I started slowing down due to traffic, the temperature quickly climbed to 200, and by 205 I could hear boiling and coolant was coming out the overflow as I pulled into the garage. With the engine off (killswitch, electronics on), I watched the temperature rise to 208, boiling, before lowering again. I noticed foamy/off color to the coolant which I had filled with distilled water for the track last year. The coolant which overflowed didnít feel oily at all, just slightly tacky when totally dry.

I finally got got into the bike and saw thereís pink stuff (see pics) in the overflow reservoir and the overflow hose. The pink stuff is very soft and slightly sticky, not like calcium or scale build up. Any idea what might be going on here?

376890

shakefu
03-16-2019, 07:59 PM
Some more pictures of the stuff since I couldn’t directly upload them all:

https://imgur.com/gallery/LHVNY5m

Turbinepilot2
03-16-2019, 08:31 PM
I would start by flushing your coolant system a few times with distilled water till it comes out clean then refill with recommended fluid.

amauri
03-16-2019, 09:22 PM
This is exactly what happens when you don't keep the correct coolant in the system.
If you must use distilled water for track use, drain and re-fill with coolant as soon as you get back from the track.

Flush it as recommended above, but use an automotive radiator flush like this:
https://prestone.com/products?detail=AS105Y

Follow the instructions carefully, use about 1/4 a bottle of the cleaner for 1-gl of water.
You may have to repeat until the system is clean again.
Make sure you flush with enough water to clear out all the Prestone cleaner before filing with 50/50 coolant.

Take a look at the oil fill cap on the clutch cover, is there any trace of milky stuff there?

VoodooV4
03-16-2019, 09:50 PM
If its boiling over at 208F, then I personally would take a sample of that coolant and get a hydrocarbon tester and see if you have combustion mixing with the coolant passages either through a crack or a failing head gasket. Although that may not be the case, I like to know where I stand before I set out on a wild goose chase. Testers usually run about $20- in most auto parts stores. What a shame, boiling issue should have been resolved when the condition first presented instead of continuously riding with it knowing that its boiling over.

shakefu
03-17-2019, 12:42 AM
This is exactly what happens when you don't keep the correct coolant in the system.
If you must use distilled water for track use, drain and re-fill with coolant as soon as you get back from the track.

Take a look at the oil fill cap on the clutch cover, is there any trace of milky stuff there?

This is becoming a full time track bike - I assume race/track bikes donít cycle coolant every time they come off the track. What would you recommend if itís not gonna be used on the street? (Also central California so cold is not a concern... +100F is though.)

I checked the oil already - both clean in the fill and the dipstick comes out normal so hopefully not cracked or mixing.

Turbinepilot2
03-17-2019, 08:49 AM
Engine Ice will work fine for track days. But check first with your track organization. It provides corrosion protection and freezing protection up to -25f. Others use distilled water and water wetter or redline. But you have to becareful because it doesnít offers freeze protection. Just make sure itís cleaned out before you attempt to put new fresh fluid in.

amauri
03-17-2019, 09:19 AM
This is becoming a full time track bike - I assume race/track bikes don’t cycle coolant every time they come off the track. What would you recommend if it’s not gonna be used on the street? (Also central California so cold is not a concern... +100F is though.)

This is what I've been using on track only bikes for many years, never seen any issues with corrosion, unlike water wetter.

https://www.maximausa.com/product/cool-aide-ready-to-use/

But I would not leave it in there permanently, flush and refill at least once a season.

shakefu
03-18-2019, 06:47 PM
So at this point I've gotten it fully flushed with distilled water, and now filled with distilled + water wetter.

Based off of all the tips I've gotten, my procedure is:

1. Drain the coolant from the drain screw
2. Drain the overflow reservoir
3. Fill the radiator as slowly as possible to minimize bubbles (never had to wait for it to "go down"), then fill the overflow reservoir to the full line (both with distilled water + 1oz water wetter per quart, takes over a half gallon).
4. Tip the bike side to side while watching for bubbles (as far as possible with one person, probably over 45 degrees, maybe further... it's heavy!)
5. Squeeze the various coolant hoses to "burp" them while watching for bubbles
6. Top up the coolant to the bottom of the neck opening
7. Run the bike briefly (5-10s) and bring it up to 3-4k RPM to circulate the coolant without warming the engine.
8. Repeat #4-#7 until there's no change in level (took 2-3 times, only displaced a few mm of coolant, maybe less than an oz each time)
9. Finish the service manual fill procedure - idling the bike up to 213F and let cool.

- While doing #9 I noticed at ~160F and higher there were small bubbles coming from the overflow hose into the overflow reservoir.
- Above 190F or so, the overflow reservoir started to "fill", the level visibly climbing (slowly)... I had earplugs in so I couldn't hear if it was boiling yet.
- Above 212F the overflow reservoir started visibly boiling, so I stopped the engine, and let it cool. Only a couple ounces of liquid came out of the coolant drain hose, and it stopped boiling within a minute or two with a large fan on the bike.
- After the bike cooled to about 115F I checked the radiator cap level - the coolant was *above* the neck opening, higher than it had been when starting to idle.
- I tried to heat cycle it again, with similar results, but I stopped the engine at ~208F when it was clear it was starting to boil.

I've tried both the radiator cap that came with the radiator, and a spare I had, with same or similar results.

At this point I've got a 1.8 Bar cap on order from AF1, just to eliminate that the cap may be bad. If that doesn't do it, I guess I'm replacing the radiator, since this one was used "mint", but who knows if it has some blockage or issue.

If anyone has any ideas on how to diagnose what the issue is, or any improvements to the coolant bleeding/fill procedure, any help would be greatly appreciated.

shakefu
03-18-2019, 06:50 PM
This is what I've been using on track only bikes for many years, never seen any issues with corrosion, unlike water wetter.

https://www.maximausa.com/product/cool-aide-ready-to-use/

But I would not leave it in there permanently, flush and refill at least once a season.

I've got some of this on order, but they had Water Wetter at the local auto parts store so I tried that first. I can't imagine it'd make a difference in the boiling since they're both surfactants?

Turbinepilot2
03-18-2019, 09:44 PM
I wonder if the thermostat is so caked in that substance that itís sticking and not operating correctly. It definitely should not be boiling.

VoodooV4
03-18-2019, 09:49 PM
Your procedure for burping the coolant system is no different from what I have done in the past and never had an issue. Some vehicles are more stubborn than others. This leads me to two outcomes, either you have blockage somewhere which is not allowing the system to properly purge itself of air, or your have compression/combustion leaking into the coolant system. Some parts stores sell those coolant buckets that include all kinds of attachments, you attach the kit cap to the top of the radiator and it has elbows to allow the coolant to build upward and get bubbles out without pissing all over the place.

When you flushed it, did you remove the coolant hoses from the radiator and use something like a garden hose to feed into the engine/watch it come out the other hose? same with the radiator?

Did you ever pick up that hydrocarbon tester for coolant systems?
Keep in mind, that unless you have defied the laws of physics, water doesn't boil until 100c or 212F, this number gets pushed upward when the radiator's pressure cap allows pressure to build in the system. So if your boiling at 190 or low 200's, you either have a blown gasket or a stubborn air pocket which is causing a hot spot inside the engine which causes coolant to phase change to a gas when it comes in contact with it...hence the bubbles or what appears to be boiling.


So at this point I've gotten it fully flushed with distilled water, and now filled with distilled + water wetter.

Based off of all the tips I've gotten, my procedure is:

1. Drain the coolant from the drain screw
2. Drain the overflow reservoir
3. Fill the radiator as slowly as possible to minimize bubbles (never had to wait for it to "go down"), then fill the overflow reservoir to the full line (both with distilled water + 1oz water wetter per quart, takes over a half gallon).
4. Tip the bike side to side while watching for bubbles (as far as possible with one person, probably over 45 degrees, maybe further... it's heavy!)
5. Squeeze the various coolant hoses to "burp" them while watching for bubbles
6. Top up the coolant to the bottom of the neck opening
7. Run the bike briefly (5-10s) and bring it up to 3-4k RPM to circulate the coolant without warming the engine.
8. Repeat #4-#7 until there's no change in level (took 2-3 times, only displaced a few mm of coolant, maybe less than an oz each time)
9. Finish the service manual fill procedure - idling the bike up to 213F and let cool.

- While doing #9 I noticed at ~160F and higher there were small bubbles coming from the overflow hose into the overflow reservoir.
- Above 190F or so, the overflow reservoir started to "fill", the level visibly climbing (slowly)... I had earplugs in so I couldn't hear if it was boiling yet.
- Above 212F the overflow reservoir started visibly boiling, so I stopped the engine, and let it cool. Only a couple ounces of liquid came out of the coolant drain hose, and it stopped boiling within a minute or two with a large fan on the bike.
- After the bike cooled to about 115F I checked the radiator cap level - the coolant was *above* the neck opening, higher than it had been when starting to idle.
- I tried to heat cycle it again, with similar results, but I stopped the engine at ~208F when it was clear it was starting to boil.

I've tried both the radiator cap that came with the radiator, and a spare I had, with same or similar results.

At this point I've got a 1.8 Bar cap on order from AF1, just to eliminate that the cap may be bad. If that doesn't do it, I guess I'm replacing the radiator, since this one was used "mint", but who knows if it has some blockage or issue.

If anyone has any ideas on how to diagnose what the issue is, or any improvements to the coolant bleeding/fill procedure, any help would be greatly appreciated.

CIAO 70
03-18-2019, 09:55 PM
Air bubble somewhere.

shakefu
03-18-2019, 10:53 PM
Some parts stores sell those coolant buckets that include all kinds of attachments, you attach the kit cap to the top of the radiator

When you flushed it, did you remove the coolant hoses from the radiator and use something like a garden hose to feed into the engine/watch it come out the other hose? same with the radiator?

Did you ever pick up that hydrocarbon tester for coolant systems?

I saw a few of those coolant pressure/leak test kits, which had all the attachments... might need to get one, since it's a cheaper check than a head gasket.

I did not remove the hoses/use a hose or otherwise to flush it - just used the procedure from the service manual of opening the drain and filling from the top a bunch of times. I did use Prestone Flush/Cleaner (about 1oz per fill) 2-3 times before just trying distilled water. Those hoses are a real pain in the butt to even pinch much less get unclamped and off the fittings, so I'd been avoiding that.

I forgot about the hydrocarbon tester check, so I'll buy/order one tomorrow.

I might try to do a stronger flush, like vinegar or less dilute prestone, before yanking all the hoses off the thing, just in case it magics it better. Way easier to pour some water than battle hose clamps, or get tiny stiff hoses off tight fittings without mangling them.

At this point I feel like if I'm gonna yank all the hoses off, I should just pony up and get a new radiator and thermostat bypass, and not waste any more weekends.

amauri
03-19-2019, 04:54 AM
- Above 190F or so, the overflow reservoir started to "fill", the level visibly climbing (slowly)... I had earplugs in so I couldn't hear if it was boiling yet.
- Above 212F the overflow reservoir started visibly boiling, so I stopped the engine, and let it cool. Only a couple ounces of liquid came out of the coolant drain hose, and it stopped boiling within a minute or two with a large fan on the bike.

Your radiator flange is damaged and not allowing the cap to hold pressure, had the exact same problem on a customer's bike last year.
Here's a thread where we discussed this a few months ago:

https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?347339-2017-Tuono-Overflow-reservoir-bubbling-at-specific-temperature&highlight=flange

shakefu
03-19-2019, 01:59 PM
Your radiator flange is damaged and not allowing the cap to hold pressure, had the exact same problem on a customer's bike last year.

Looking closely at the radiator, it does seem to be slightly mushed inward, and I can feel a "lip" on the inner surface around the neck where it's slightly raised relative to the rest of the surface (Pic 1). I'm not sure if that's normal ... and my friend who helped me install it reminded me that when we got the part last year, it had been slightly mushed in shipping, but we couldn't exactly remember which area or how badly (and we didn't save any photos of it.)

I also took the calipers out and in the front-rear direction, the upper area measured 28.2mm, while in the side-to-side direction in measured 27.6mm. I'm guessing that should be perfectly circular with a tolerance a lot less than 0.5mm.

The bike-side of the upper portion also has about 0.1mm clearance from the radiator body, which may or may not be slightly dented there... I can't tell (Pic 2 & 4).

Is there any way to fix this? Not sure I have the tools, other than making it worse with big ass channel lock pliers. Maybe a radiator specialist? Or just suck it up and order a new one?

Pics for sanity checking... 'cause I am the worst motorcycle mechanic. :deadhorse:

https://imgur.com/a/0DSo2bx

Rvee
03-24-2019, 06:10 PM
50 degrees out and the tuono ran up to 246 coming back into the city, had to cut the engine at my last several lights. It's gotten ridiculous, this is not a properly functioning bike with how often this occurs on cool days.

I pulled up to the garage and once I cut ignition, I hear some massive boiling. Look down and there is coolant all over the damn place.

377462

The belly pan was filled up with several ounces. It took about 3-5 minutes to stop boiling.

So far I have suggestions from friends that there is air in the system, or the thermostat is stuck. The factory coolant is still in the radiator and I haven't messed with it since buying the bike.

I checked the cap, it appears to seal up nicely... I read in another thread about resting it on either side and squeezing some of the rad pipes. Is this with the cap off? Isn't this system "self bleeding"?

What should I try prior to a dealer trip?

motoracerx
03-24-2019, 06:31 PM
I read in another thread about resting it on either side and squeezing some of the rad pipes. Is this with the cap off? Isn't this system "self bleeding"?

That's what i do ( called 'burping') when i flush out coolant and replace with distilled water/water wetter before track season, except i don't squeeze any radiator hoses.

With bike running, cap off, tilt as far as possible to opposite side of radiator fill neck. That puts the fill neck at the highest point...kinda like having a bleeder on a brake caliper at the top.

Fill fluid, let bike warm some more, burp again. Done.

No idea if that's your problem though.

Rvee
03-25-2019, 10:58 AM
That's what i do ( called 'burping') when i flush out coolant and replace with distilled water/water wetter before track season, except i don't squeeze any radiator hoses.

With bike running, cap off, tilt as far as possible to opposite side of radiator fill neck. That puts the fill neck at the highest point...kinda like having a bleeder on a brake caliper at the top.

Fill fluid, let bike warm some more, burp again. Done.

No idea if that's your problem though.

Same procedure I've followed when replacing coolant on the RSVR. The bleeder screw on the second gen bikes at least provided an additional level of confidence that air was out of the system since coolant would issue from it. I will try shakefu's procedure here and try leaning it over farther than just kickstand lean prior to capping it.

I honestly can't tell from the pictures he posted how the cap might be deformed if that is truly the issue. The previous thread Amauri linked to looked like a clear bend in the top of that filler. But assuming since mine has only boiled once and it was at 246 degrees that we may not have the exact same issue.

shakefu
03-26-2019, 08:56 PM
Looking closely at the radiator, it does seem to be slightly mushed inward

Got in a brand new OEM radiator from AF1 today... and now I can see that the fill neck/cap on my old one is not *slightly* mushed. It is *very* mushed - probably 10 degrees. The OEM fill neck follows the line from the side of the radiator up vertical. My old (and busted) radiator neck was parallel with the top of the radiator.

I'll get it installed this weekend and report back.

Turbinepilot2
03-26-2019, 10:30 PM
Good luck! Hope thatís the culprit.

amauri
03-27-2019, 10:49 AM
Good luck! Hope that’s the culprit.

That will fix the boiling over and filling the plastic recovery tank.

But the pink froth residue is another issue... that should be taken care of now that the system has been flushed and filled with new coolant.

shakefu
04-02-2019, 11:05 PM
That will fix the boiling over and filling the plastic recovery tank.

But the pink froth residue is another issue... that should be taken care of now that the system has been flushed and filled with new coolant.

Indeed it did! Thank you very much for your help and advice.

In the end it was resolved by a) flushing the system completely with Prestone Coolant Clean & Flush until distilled water came through perfectly clean and b) replacing the damaged radiator (when removed and compared to new it became obvious there was more damage to it, not just the neck... oh eBay parts), with c) installing a thermostat bypass, installing 1.8 Bar radiator cap, removing the fans, removing EVAP canister, removing exhaust servo, and lastly d) filling the bike very slowly and carefully with coolant (Maxima Cool-Aide and distilled water - 1oz to 1qt), and then rolling the bike up a good incline (20 degrees-ish), starting it to cycle and push air bubbles out of the coolant to the top and finally topping it off.

Had it out to the track at Thunderhill East (3mi) this past Sunday (3/31) and it went amazing!

Idling the bike would stabilize at 223-225F - just once I saw it hit 230F in the hot pit sitting on the grid, but just hit the kill and it quickly lowered to sub 220F.

Rolling on the track it never got above 185F, and at lower speeds (in the pits) it would stabilize at 200-210F depending on how fast I was moving.

Never lost a drop of coolant or heard any boiling.

Big caveat is that I was very careful to warm the engine and let it sit and heat soak 10-15mins before going out WOT - with the thermostat bypass the water may come up to temp, but the engine block will still be cool to the touch for a while, which is no bueno for redline riding.

So - this setup is 100% fixed for me and track riding my RSV4. I wouldn't recommend pulling the thermostat and fans for the street, but it's *very* effective at managing the temperature when lapping.

Edit: Added d) fill procedure - no burping of hoses or rocking necessary if you have a good incline you can use to raise the front wheel!

CIAO 70
04-04-2019, 01:58 PM
Glad you got it sorted and thanks for the information.:cool:

Rvee
04-21-2019, 08:09 PM
Finally got another bag (yes bag now?) of coolant to top up...

Squeezed hoses I had access to: a couple small bubbles.

Damn near leaned it over far enough to lay it down: a couple more small bubbles.

Steep incline, started her up with cap off: noticeably more bubbles seemed to rise to the filler.

5 minute ride w/ traffic lights: coolant boiling over all over the place, 241 degrees on the dash.

Is there any way to tell if the thermostat is stuck? Should I drain the coolant entirely and refill it? Or should I just bring it to a dealer at this point?

amauri
04-21-2019, 08:59 PM
Simple way to test a thermostat is to remove it from the bike, place it in a pot of water and boil the water.
The thermostat should fully open well before the water starts to boil.

Refilling the cooling system on these bikes is not all that difficult and any small amount of air remaining in the system will be purged thru the recovery tank after a few heat cycles.

Did you ck to see if your radiator filler neck has the same problem as the OP found to be problem?
Read this thread from the beginning.

Rvee
04-22-2019, 11:14 AM
Simple way to test a thermostat is to remove it from the bike, place it in a pot of water and boil the water.
The thermostat should fully open well before the water starts to boil.

Refilling the cooling system on these bikes is not all that difficult and any small amount of air remaining in the system will be purged thru the recovery tank after a few heat cycles.

Did you ck to see if your radiator filler neck has the same problem as the OP found to be problem?
Read this thread from the beginning.

Read it many times, along with the other thread you linked to which shows a clear bend in the filler neck. I can get some closer, cap off pics tonight. The neck seems vertically aligned with the radiator (no inward bend on the neck).

379111

This is a still of a video I took of it boiling over btw - at rest expansion tank is in between full and low. Until of course it boils over everywhere...

Rvee
04-23-2019, 09:24 PM
379196

379197

379198

379199

I would appreciate any further insight. I noticed there is a 1.8 bar cap on the AF1 site and the description states it should help with boiling over, but that won't solve my overheating issues. Also notes when "pushing a V4 very hard in 100F+" not idling at lights causing this like my situation.

amauri
04-23-2019, 09:57 PM
Do you have the same symptoms as the OP?

Meaning that as you idle the engine and watch the overflow reservoir, do you see coolant rapidly flowing into the reservoir as the engine temp rises?

Rvee
04-24-2019, 10:54 AM
Do you have the same symptoms as the OP?

Meaning that as you idle the engine and watch the overflow reservoir, do you see coolant rapidly flowing into the reservoir as the engine temp rises?

I was able to observe it during my most recent test since I wasn't on the street. It was not a slow process, and did not start filling the reservoir until the bike was at high temps. Just as it reached 238-241 degrees, the reservoir began filling, could hear it boiling and it was overflowing within a few more seconds.

amauri
04-24-2019, 11:59 AM
Two possibilities I can think of:

-radiator cap defective or not sealing on the filler neck flange
-or the thermostat is not opening as it should

I know it can be a PITA to remove the thermostat, but may be worth testing it in a pot of boiling water.

Steve37
04-25-2019, 05:42 AM
After observing slightly different temp behaviour ,I ordered a new cap,
the radiator vomited at the last stop before I rode home ,the day before cap arrived.lol
fitted up all good again
(16 t fact. 55000 ks)

Rvee
04-25-2019, 09:14 AM
After observing slightly different temp behaviour ,I ordered a new cap,
the radiator vomited at the last stop before I rode home ,the day before cap arrived.lol
fitted up all good again
(16 t fact. 55000 ks)

Sounds like a cheap troubleshooting option and much less of an endeavor than removing the thermostat. I suppose that would be up next if a new cap doesn't resolve the issue.

Thanks for the tips.

shakefu
05-02-2019, 11:21 PM
Sounds like a cheap troubleshooting option and much less of an endeavor than removing the thermostat. I suppose that would be up next if a new cap doesn't resolve the issue.

Thanks for the tips.

Your husky radiator cap probably fits. Mine did from my FE350

Rvee
05-23-2019, 05:48 PM
Update for anyone who may also be chasing these issues as well...

I received a new 1.4 bar cap (part 893954). This required probably 10x as much force to turn down onto the filler neck. Definitely a revised cap over stock as well, it has brass metal and a larger rubber area. I believe the cap was/is part of the problem.

This likely properly pressurized the system. Unfortunately it still overheated to 243 after 4-5 stop lights while at idle. However, I killed it well before boil over occurred (which was happening much more slowly this time). Instead of boil over, it appears the hose clamp just past the thermostat valve is not properly holding and it hissed and leaked a significant amount of coolant out.

381277

With service queues 2+ weeks before they can even look at it I'm going to attempt to replace this one with a worm gear style that fits...

GJB
05-23-2019, 10:24 PM
Amauri, Is there anything wrong with distilled water and water wetter? I have been using it for years and have never seen sludge

shakefu
05-27-2019, 06:17 PM
Amauri, Is there anything wrong with distilled water and water wetter? I have been using it for years and have never seen sludge

Pretty sure my bike's pink sludge was related to OEM coolant boiling off and being topped up repeatedly.

shakefu
05-27-2019, 06:21 PM
So your earlier pictures showed something weird with your Radiator hoses - the radiator overflow hose looks like it's disconnected from the radiator, and the overflow bottle hose looks like it's connected in its place.

Not sure if you did that or a previous owner or shop technician did it.

If your bike is still not holding pressure, and you're absolutely sure you've bled it, just let it idle to get up to temperature - this is the process the manual describes as well - after a fresh fill, you want to idle it up to 212+, and then turn it off and let it cool.

When my neck wasn't holding pressure I could see the coolant filling and boiling way before 212. Afterwards even at 238F, there is no boiling. Even if your thermostat is staying closed, your coolant should not produce a boiling sound, so hopefully for you it's just the matter of checking and fixing your hose clamps to maintain pressure.

amauri
05-27-2019, 06:30 PM
So your earlier pictures showed something weird with your Radiator hoses - the radiator overflow hose looks like it's disconnected from the radiator, and the overflow bottle hose looks like it's connected in its place.

The photos show the hoses are correct for a TV4, not the same as RSV4.

shakefu
05-29-2019, 12:04 AM
The photos show the hoses are correct for a TV4, not the same as RSV4.

Whoops, thanks for the correction!