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View Full Version : Demand sensor replace-relearn or not?



motoracerx
02-10-2019, 03:07 PM
My 13 rsv4 seems to be having demand sensor issue. Do i need to do the relearn process or can i just replace demand sensor, and go back on track?

plocky
02-10-2019, 04:49 PM
Definitely needs to have 'handle self learning' done or ECU has no reference point for the new DS.

motoracerx
02-10-2019, 05:22 PM
What if i just replaced the sensors that plug n play?

plocky
02-10-2019, 05:24 PM
The signal they send to the ECU is what you are calibrating. The ECU needs to know their zero point.

motoracerx
02-10-2019, 06:30 PM
I havetheguzzi diag software and cables but have no idea how to use it.

letsback up and describe what bike did....150 mph back section, as i go into a little kink and catch a downshift, urgent service, red lights flashing, goes into a 20 mph limp mode.

took bike to infield of track and sat there. Turned bike off. After a minute, started bike up and it revved erratically up to 4000 then down , then up to 4000.

I turned bike off agsin. Waited for the checker and brought the bike in, at which point, service lights were gone and bike was running fine.

i knew the demand sensors were an issue, so i bought 2 sets for spares.

My symptoms seem very common from what ive read on here and google searches.

plocky
02-10-2019, 07:22 PM
Ok so all those symptoms are the ECU going into limp home mode, could be from Demand Sensor error or something else.
Be warned a dropped valve may send the bike into limp mode too, so diagnosis is important, dropped valve can be indicated by error in intake pressure, though intake pressure error can also be just a bad pressure MAP sensor.
Anyway i'm probably scaring you now so best not to guess OK.

Those cables & GuzziDiag are your best way to diagnose what happened, there will be stored errors in the ECU that Guzzi can read for you. Then use the service manual or me & the rest of the forum members I guess, to decipher what the error code/s are pointing to.

Sometimes just clearing the error can return system to normal, but make sure you record the errors first, although if they reoccur it will prove that the error is live.

To connect the cables you just need to lift the tail to expose rear seat lock, just behind that is the 3 pin diag connector (should have a blanking cap on it, unclip it). It's just in front of the starter relay.

Plug 2 sections of diag cable together, (the big bits), now plug diag cable connector in & connect red alligator clip to positive terminal of battery or starter relay.
Blue light should light on the large part of the cable connector.
Now plug the usb end of the diag cable into laptop, open Guzzie diag

NOTE: As this is your first time connecting software you need to first go to the drop down menu, 'File', select Preferences & select Motorcycle California 1400 in GuzziDiag or ECU type 7SM in IAWDiag, then select the 'com port' that is visible, if there are 2 comports or more you may need to try all to get the right one..
Now select drop down menu 'File' select connect, follow prompt=ignition on.

If successful connection; numbers will appear in the first page fields.:)

Now go to the drop down menu, 'View', select 'Faults' then select read & stored errors should appear, record them, then select clear & see what happens.
Check what the error code is in your manual, PDF word search will find it or I will.;)

If you decide to change the DS, then the commands for doing Handle & Throttle self learning are in the drop down menu, 'View' select Actors, select the action, follow prompts.

Let me know how you go.

motoracerx
02-10-2019, 07:35 PM
Thanks plocky. don't worry about scaring me with a bad possibilities of what could be going on. i'm used to dumping loads of money into this sport. it's just part of it.

As far as a dropped valve goes...if that were the case, it surely wouldn't be running/sounding as good as it does now would it? I put it on the stand and banged through the gears, 10k rpm's or so and sounded perfect.

I may or may not fool with it tomorrow. If i have the time or desire to, i will. I have 2 other bikes to keep me busy on the track.

I do need to learn/understand how to do the Guzzidiag.

Race4life86
02-11-2019, 09:46 PM
Hey there motoracerx about 2 years ago I had VERY similar situation happen on my 10 Factory. Ended up being my rear throttlebodies. The potentiometer setup crapped out! Take the time to learn the guzzidiag! Well worth it. There's also YouTube videos of how it hooks up. You can also message me anytime if you need a hand! Good luck.

motoracerx
02-12-2019, 06:15 AM
Hey there motoracerx about 2 years ago I had VERY similar situation happen on my 10 Factory. Ended up being my rear throttlebodies. The potentiometer setup crapped out! Take the time to learn the guzzidiag! Well worth it. There's also YouTube videos of how it hooks up. You can also message me anytime if you need a hand! Good luck.

Hey thanks for the headsup. I'm back home now and will be learning this guzzidiag setup asap. I downloaded the software and bought the cables 2 yrs ago, knowing i would eventually need them on either the tuono or rsv4.

Will be digging into it today and the rest of the week.

motoracerx
02-12-2019, 02:26 PM
I dug out the lonelec cables from some parts boxes. They were still in the shipping packages and this is the lst time i've looked at them...(bought them 2 yrs ago). I think the lst pic with the 2 cables (one with the hot jumper clip on it) are the cables that i need to use. Looks like i bought 2 of the same blue cables.

plocky
02-12-2019, 04:54 PM
Wow all those cables & you haven't used them yet. lol.

Ok that lonelec (last pic) one hasn't got the 3 pin Fiat connector for the bike end?

The 3P16P Fiat (pic 1) is the correct connector at the bike end.
The 2 blue OBD Innovations cables look like they would be ok if they have the right chip.

If they don't, then the Lonelec one will likely have the correct chip so you can make a hybrid cable out of what you have there.

Go ahead & mix & match.

motoracerx
02-12-2019, 05:10 PM
Wow all those cables & you haven't used them yet. lol.

Ok that lonelec (last pic) one hasn't got the 3 pin Fiat connector for the bike end?

The 3P16P Fiat (pic 2) is the correct connector at the bike end.
The 2 blue OBD Innovations cables look like they would be ok if they have the right chip.

If they don't, then the Lonelec one will likely have the correct chip so you can make a hybrid cable out of what you have there.

Go ahead & mix & match.

Sweet....I've been scrambling my brain cell and reading the 'guzzidiag' sticky. Jeebus....what do you guys do for a living, split atoms? :)

I've read worm clamps preventing throttle bodies from actuating fulling, bad connectors, TB's not working properly, vacuum hoses mixed up, valve clearances, water intrusion in a sensor in the tail, demand sensor, etc....all possible fixes to my symptoms.

plocky
02-13-2019, 01:16 AM
Sweet....I've been scrambling my brain cell and reading the 'guzzidiag' sticky. Jeebus....what do you guys do for a living, split atoms? :)


Yep, professional atom splitter here. lol.

While out for a ride today I realised I haven't told you before opening Guzzi program or connecting to bike; to first connect the cable to your Laptop/PC so it downloads & installs the USB driver necessary for the chip in the cable, shouldn't take more than a few minutes, but does need an internet connection. The Lonelec will definitely do this automatically, not sure about the OBD Innovations one.

EDIT:Actually I just noticed in your pics; the Lonelec instruction sheet, so you should have worked it out anyway.;)

motoracerx
02-13-2019, 03:05 PM
Yep, professional atom splitter here. lol.

While out for a ride today I realised I haven't told you before opening Guzzi program or connecting to bike; to first connect the cable to your Laptop/PC so it downloads & installs the USB driver necessary for the chip in the cable, shouldn't take more than a few minutes, but does need an internet connection. The Lonelec will definitely do this automatically, not sure about the OBD Innovations one.

EDIT:Actually I just noticed in your pics; the Lonelec instruction sheet, so you should have worked it out anyway.;)

My computer won't download the driver. Windows can't find it. yada yada yada. 5 minutes in and I'm about to give up.

Look for a pimped out '13 RSV4 being in the 'parts for sale' section soon. lol.

The lonelec instructions are talking about zipping and unzippling files. The only thing i know about zippers are the ones on my leathers.

motoracerx
02-13-2019, 04:10 PM
Woohoo, im in.

stored faults:
P0170 too low
P0461 too high
P0187 invalid signal

streebs93
02-13-2019, 04:18 PM
P0170 = Starter switch ELECTRICAL ERRORS

P0461 = Gear sensor

P0187 = Front throttle position error

All found here:

https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?341636-Collected-errorcodes

plocky
02-13-2019, 04:56 PM
Woohoo, im in.

stored faults:
P0170 too low
P0461 too high
P0187 invalid signal
OK, clear them & see what returns when you start the bike.

That last one is what caused the limp mode.

From the service manual:Electrical system RSV4 RR/RFELE SYS - 210
Front throttle position error P0187
• misalignment between control and activation
Error cause
• The throttle mechanical control may be damaged
Troubleshooting
• Replace the throttle body

DIAGNOSIS INSTRUMENT: ADJUSTABLE PARAMETERS Throttle Self-learning
NOTE THROTTLE BODY ACTIVATION TAKES PLACE EVERY TIME THE KEY IS SET TO ON: CORRECT ACTIVATION IS INDICATED WHEN THE STOP LIGHTS TURN ON: IF DURING ACTIVATION, THE ENGINE IS STARTED, THE ACTIVATION IS NOT COMPLETED AND THE STOP LIGHTS DO NOT TURN ON. EVERY 150 KEY-ONs, HOWEVER, THE THROTTLE VALVES ARE FORCED TO ACTIVATION. IF START-UP IS ATTEMPTED DURING THIS ACTIVATION (WHICH REQUIRES 3 SECONDS), THE ENGINE WILL NOT START.


FITTING: MECHANICAL/ELECTRICAL REFIT RESET PROCEDURE

If a throttle body is replaced, after key is set to ON, do not start the engine within the 3 seconds; during this time the control unit carries out the throttle self-acquisition process: according to the throttle body replaced check that the status "Front throttle automatic self-learning" or "Rear throttle automatic selflearning" indicates: "carried out". If indication is not "Carried out", delete possible errors on the vehicle and then, with key set to ON, check that the statuses are "Carried out". If necessary, carry out "Throttle self-learning" process on the adjustable parameters screen page (screwdriver and hammer), and check again that the "Throttle self-learning with diagnostics instrument" status indicates: "Carried out" and that the "Front throttle automatic self-learning" or "Rear throttle automatic self-learning" indicate: "carried out"

motoracerx
02-13-2019, 05:22 PM
P0170 = Starter switch ELECTRICAL ERRORS

P0461 = Gear sensor

P0187 = Front throttle position error

All found here:

https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?341636-Collected-errorcodes

Nice thanks.

After reading the codes, the P0461 gear sensor fault made me think about a problem i had with the shifter the session before this urgent service/limp mode situation.

Exact same part of track. A fast left hand kink, i go to downshift and nothing there, meaning no shift lever. I instinctly pulled the clutch in and free-wheeled through 3 high speed 's' turns...yeah, it was hairy as hell.

I get to my pit and my shift lever (sato rearsets, GP shift), is behind my footpeg, almost parallel with the ground.
The all thread bolt that goes into the shift rod and the OEM quickshifter, were still in place, but the all thread bolt was bent at almost a 90 degree angle.

This is the damnest thing i've ever seen. I thought maybe the shifter hit the ground when i leaned the bike into the corner and bent that all thread bolt and threw the shift lever behind my footpeg. I wish i would have taken a picture of it.

So i had another all thread bolt and fixed the shift lever. There is no damage to be seen. Next session out, after 2 laps, on the back straight again, and i get urgent service and limp mode. Erratic revving. Make it to the pits. Bike sits for a minute, fire it back up, bang throuugh the gears and bike sounds perfect buut i don't take it the rest of the weekend.

Could my shift lever coming apart caused these codes to happen, after i fixed it?

I'll start going throuugh the wiring, checking/cleaning connections. This bike has never been down and never been wet, for the record.

edit: I found that all thread bolt and half-assed put it together to show what the hell it looked like when i came into the pits. And yes, the locking nuts were in place on the all thread bolt.

plocky
02-13-2019, 05:36 PM
Not that simple.

P0461 Gear sensor error does not produce Urgent Service display, MIL or Limp Home Mode.

You may be lucky & the front throttle body may have just momentarily got stuck.

Suggest you clear the errors & start the bike; see if any errors return as active or stored.
You can start your engine with GuzziDiag running to see if there is a live error.

motoracerx
02-13-2019, 05:55 PM
Not that simple.

P0461 Gear sensor error does not produce Urgent Service display, MIL or Limp Home Mode.

You may be lucky & the front throttle body may have just momentarily got stuck.

Suggest you clear the errors & start the bike; see if any errors return as active or stored.
You can start your engine with GuzziDiag running to see if there is a live error.

Cleared stored faults. Bike is currently running. No new faults.

plocky
02-13-2019, 06:15 PM
Cleared stored faults. Bike is currently running. No new faults.

Excellent you may be lucky & it won't happen a gain. :peace:

motoracerx
02-13-2019, 06:52 PM
Excellent you may be lucky & it won't happen a gain. :peace:

I'm gonna go ahead and take the tank/airbox off. It's been a year since i did the sealed airbox mod. I'd like to see what kind of dirt is in there.

I'll go through the wiring. Check/clean connectors, etc.. Make sure there are no hot spots in any wiring.

That happened to me when i first got the bike....Same track, urgent service....ended up being coil wire rubbed raw. Got pinched between a head bolt and airbox. Not my doings btw. :)

Glad you were able to help me with the guzzidiag. Hell, i might even do a valve check while im at it.

motoracerx
02-14-2019, 08:29 AM
Donated 50.00 euros to guzzidiag....however many US dollars that was.

dtich
02-15-2019, 01:03 AM
out of curiosity, did the toe peg of the shift lever show any signs of wear/scraping ? like it caught road on a big lean? so weird. seems like the shift rod would have to have stripped to let it bend all the way back like that.

motoracerx
02-15-2019, 05:06 AM
out of curiosity, did the toe peg of the shift lever show any signs of wear/scraping ? like it caught road on a big lean? so weird. seems like the shift rod would have to have stripped to let it bend all the way back like that.

Absolutely no marks on the shifter. Its the strangest thing.
About 1/2 dozen of some seasoned racers looked at it with blank stares trying to imagine what happened.

in that pic with the threaded rod,the rod is just sitting in place. It was threaded all the way into where the bend starts.