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XERO
01-31-2016, 10:38 AM
Preface:

I decided to start my own “Project” Thread because I realized that mine was getting way out of control.
My hope is that at the end of this I will have laid out a wealth of usable information for everyone to benefit from and have a very unique RS50 for myself.

I am no stranger to engine swaps, be it motorcycles or cars, and as much as I would love to plug a 125 into my RS's chassis to bring the output up to a more usable / desirable level I find myself wondering why would I ?
I purchased my RS knowing full well what it was and what (not) to expect out of it.
If I wanted real Sport Bike performance I would have just went out and picked up another Sport Bike.
So again, I wondered why would I rip the heart out from this little Italian bike to make it into something that it isn't ? (nothing against those that have)
Finally I committed, my goal was to see just how far one could take this single cylinder 2 stroke engine.
I must point out that I am not looking to turn the engine into a grenade, I want it to be reliable and still function as a viable "street bike".

Good luck, indeed …

Before I go tearing into this project I need a proper place to work and easy access to my tools and such.
Mrs. XERO said she would string me up for sure this time if she came home and found another engine disassembled on her kitchen table, I believe her.
So, after spending the entire Spring and Summer working non-stop for everyone else on their projects, it was Fall and time for a break,well sort of …


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Throughout the Fall and Winter I have been spending the weekends building myself a dedicated bike garage :D !!!
This will soon be the new home for all my bikes, tools, and projects.
Until I have the garage completed, my "feature project" will have to wait ...
In the meantime I figured I would start collecting and posting all of my other mods here for everyone to view.

Enjoy ...

XERO
01-31-2016, 12:41 PM
One of the first upgrades I made to my RS was the Headlight.
The stock Headlight was worthless at best when riding at night out on the back roads.
I did not feel comfortable at all with the very limited output and having been hit by a deer on another bike I wanted to correct this fast.
(Deer are everywhere around here, seriously everywhere)

I started comparing Part #s between the RS50 and the RS125 and found that they shared a number of common body parts.
The RS125 Headlight was a genuine headlight assembly with genuine headlight bulbs, not some weird 35 watt bulb.
The RS125 Headlight has H1 and H3 bulbs and the Low Beam is a real Projector type.

I found one on eBay in the UK and the Gentleman was kind enough to ship it to me here in the States.

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One problem I found with this Headlight was with the Low Beam, the beam pattern was incorrect for driving here in the States.
This needed to be corrected to pass DOT Inspections.
After carefully disassembling the entire Headlight I found the metal plate inside the Low Beam Projector assembly that was responsible for the beam pattern.
I was able to remove this plate, flip it and re-attach it. Reassembled the entire unit and problem was solved.

The next issue was with the extra current draw from the 55 watt bulbs.
These bulbs draw an extra 57% over the stock 35 watt bulb.
To help offset this I set out to replace all of the standard incandescent bulbs with LEDs.

Here are the specs for incandescent versus LED power usage:



OEM Speedo 5w
LED Speedo 0.7w
OEM Tach 3.4w
LED Tach 0.7w
OEM Temp 1.2w
LED Temp 0.3w (x2 added second bulb socket to gauge to light up better, see pic)
OEM Indicators 1.7w (each)
LED Indicators 0.3w (each)
OEM City Light 5w
LED City Light 1w


Swapping out all the bulbs for LED made up most of the difference in current consumption.

OEM RS50 current draw yields 56.3 watts total used for lighting (w/o brake or turn ON).
My set-up with RS125 headlight ON and all other lighting replaced with LED 61.2 watts.
1/2 amp greater draw than RS50 OEM draw with all OEM spec bulbs.


Here are some pictures :

Gauge Cluster LED Bulbs:
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Gauge Cluster with LED Bulbs,
Tach still has standard incandescent bulb to show difference:
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I added a second bulb socket to the Temp Gauge to light it up better:
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Here is a pic of the LED City Light in the RS125 Headlight and one of the bulb:
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The RS125 Headlight has been one of the best upgrades I have made to my RS50.
I have no issues what-so-ever with riding at night and the number of dumbass cagers turning in front of me has sharply declined.
Outside of needing to add a couple of washers to space out the Gauge Cluster to clear the larger housing of the 125 Headlight, it was a direct drop-kick & bolt-in swap into the RS50.
Due check the wiring for correct placement in the connector, mine had been hacked a little was wasn't in the correct order.

XERO
01-31-2016, 02:00 PM
When you set out to build a bike (and with all projects) unless you have a Trust Fund, a fat Pay Check, or a Sugar Momma, you have to buy your parts and build in stages.
This is where careful planing and research pay off.
What's the point of buying piles of parts you can't use until you have all the parts you need to make them work?
It's best to start buying the items you can use now and then later integrate into your full build.

The first "performance" items I purchased for my RS was a bigger carb and an exhaust.

For the carb, I chose to go with a 21mm PHBG Dellorto "Racing" carb.
The 21mm carb can be tuned to run the stock 50cc barrel and then be re-tuned to run a mild BBK.

(There has been a lot of chatter and posts and threads and rants etc. regarding this carb versus that carb and which is better and which is easier and everything in between.
All I can say to that, is that there is no perfect carb.
Regardless of what carb anyone chooses to use it will only be as good as the person's knowledge and skill that set it up.)

For the exhaust I went with the Leo Vince pipe.
This was primarily due to price and State Side availability.
More on this later, but first the Intake Upgrade ...

Fitting the 21mm Dellorto Carb to the RS required some moderate work and some extra work to make it better.
I stepped up to the V-Force Reeds and picked up a stable Manifold from Treats to work with.
The "Racing" version of the Dellorto Carb requires a rubber coupling to mount it to the Manifold, not a clamp like the "standard" version.
The Manifold I picked up from Treats did not fit the carb and I had even more "space" issues to deal with.

First up was the space issue with the Air Box, Carb, Manifold, Reed Block.
The 21mm PHBG "racing" carb is slightly longer overall than the stock carb and the Intake Manifold was too big as well to allow the whole set-up to bolt nicely in place.


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I located a different rubber adapter for the air box from Aprilia and found a mating adapter for the Dellorto.
Aprilia AP8220612 replaces the BIG 60mm opening rubber with with a smaller 36mm opening rubber and Dellorto PHBG "screw-on" 36mm adapter snaps into it tightly.
This whole adapter set-up is slightly shorter in length which got me a lot closer to having this whole intake system fitting.

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36mm above, 60mm below

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I still needed some more room so I found that shifting the two little rubber covered stand-off mounts back/up slightly bought me the rest of the real estate I needed.
Picture of the temp "adjustable" brackets I used to locate them, better ones to come ...


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The next issue was getting the 21mm PHBG to fit into the rubber coupling of the manifold.
Unable to find any "off the shelf" adapters I set out and molded my own from urethane.
My urethane adapter has a bead on the inside and out to mate with the existing grooves in the rubber coupling and on the PHBG itself.
This little thing works GREAT, seals 100% when clamped and no way for the carb to pop out !!!


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While I was at it I thought it would be a great to add yet more time to this project ...
So I went ahead and matched the intake manifold exit to the V-Force reed cage opening.
I found some great HIGH TEMP epoxy resistant to gas and built up and carved out and polished until they matched.


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Port matching the Carb to the Manifold to the Reed Block is very important.
You never want any sharp or mismatched transitions anywhere in your Intake Track.

And finally I cut some fitted gaskets for it all from some crazy over board gasket material.


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And here it is ...


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I used a curved adapter for the throttle cable to clear the bottom side of the Air Box.
This is a screw on piece from Dellorto and I think it was the 70 deg. flavor.
As for the Choke, I made a custom cable to mate to a Non-Aprilia Left Hand Control Choke lever.

NOTE: you will not be able to use the Factory throttle cable with this carb / set-up !!!
You will have to make a custom section of the throttle cable from the Splitter to the carb.
The Factory carb cable from the Splitter is too short and if installed will keep your carb partially open.
Making a custom cable can be a little tricky if you don't have the proper tools, parts, and patience.

I'll post some tutorials on making custom cables and molding urethane here soon ...

Spudgun60
01-31-2016, 02:38 PM
The headlamp from an RS125 certainly makes a difference. The stock 35W unit is way to feeble for the bikes (unrestricted) performance. The 55W unit is a straight 'plug and play' affair. However. The wires on the stock 35W loom are too thin to support the extra load. When I got my 55W unit. The loom was still attached to it. The wires were a lot thicker. Again. This part was a 'plug and play' affair (A straight swop for you at the back). I've been running the RS 125 headlamp for over a year now (without any other modification) without any ill effect. The generator on the RS50 is perfectly able to cope with the extra demand. However. It does mean that you'll need to charge the battery a little more often.

A neat trick for dealing with the length of the throttle cable is: Shortening the outer cable, thus making the inner cable relatively longer. It's a cheap and (relatively) easy method if you're unable to make your own cables from scratch. It's what I did to my RS.

If you want to keep your RS looking stock. You can get a left hand handlebar cluster from a later (2002 onwards) RS50 which has the choke lever. However. These parts are in short supply (even in the UK). The cluster from an RS125 are more common (and cheaper) and they fit. The wiring loom does need to be changed though, as the plug on the end is different. As the switches are the same on both clusters. The internals are a straight swop. My left cluster is an outer from an RS125, but the internals are from an RS50.

XERO
01-31-2016, 02:50 PM
Next up on my RS build was to get better overall performance and more rev's.
My RS appeared to be restricted via timing in some fashion and in an effort to eliminate it I picked up one of the Top Performance CDI units.
I went all in and purchased their "Digital Variable Red Box CDI" from Treats.

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The following text is copied from an old Thread I posted in the "Technical" section ...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?272749-The-Great-CDI-Paradox

With the carb set-up and running rather well I figured it would be a good time to mess around with this CDI and see if there is a noticeable difference.
I left the OEM CDI in place so I could quickly swap back and forth between the two CDI's.
First thing I should note is that when I got my '01 RS50 the engine, intake, exhaust was 100% stock.
The bike would only rev to 10500, that was it. It would run right up and stop, wall ...
(Of course freight training down a steep hill would push it past)
Missed shifts at the wall would still only over-rev to 11250.
(My AM6 trans finds a neutral between 5th and 6th all the time and likes to pop out of 6th into neutral when hitting heavy bumps. Only 6th though)
After fitting:
Dellorto 21mm PHBG Racing carb,
V-Force Reed Cage,
Leo Vince V6 exhaust,
AF1 air filter for OEM air box,
and all the custom trick "wastes of time" to make it fit the bike would still only rev to 10500.
It got there a lot faster and all that but still the wall remained !!!
I ran a couple quick warm-up laps around the back roads and swapped over to the TOP's CDI and took it right back out.
The wall had been smashed, ran over, and was now only visible in the mirrors !!!
Instant 11500 and 12000+ easy in down hill over-rev.
5th - 6th miss shift neutral sends needle blazing well past 12000 instantly (caution needed here for sure on a stock crank).
So there you have it ...
My CDI in my bike had some form of restriction built into it.
Was this restriction just an unintentional "by product" of poor ignition timing ...
Or was the poor ignition timing an intentional act of restriction ???

There was a lot of good comments posted by other Members in that Thread, so if you are more curious take a look.
I will add, that 2 years later and I am still running that CDI and have no regrets in purchasing it.

Another item worth noting, this CDI will not work with a Stroker Crank Set-up, with those you will need to alter your timing relative to the new stroke.
This CDI's Timing is programmed for the Factory Stroke Crank length.

For anyone looking for a quick & easy bolt-on "performance" upgrade this is it.
If you are looking for the ultimate in Timing Performance, I would suggest looking into one of the Internal Rotor Ignitions.
I do plan on upgrading to one in the future but that will come later, for now I'm still building my RS in usable stages.

XERO
01-31-2016, 03:26 PM
Spud,

I have done the "shortening" the outer cable trick a few times in the past and it is for sure a quick easy way to mod a cable in a pinch.
However, after learning the art of cable making, I find it much easier to make up a new proper one of scratch.
I think I have less than $50 into tools (excluding the Snap-On Cable Cutter) to do the job.
All the little ends and cable parts are chump change items, 10 cents here, dollar there etc. ...

You lucked out on the RS125 Headlight (being in U.K.), it was a real pain in the ass to get the whole assembly apart to swap the metal plate in the Low Beam for U.S. driving.
I ended up rewiring my entire RS and upgrading the entire headlight wiring to larger gauge wire.
At the same time, I wired all my lighting to run off the Battery, not just the lighting coil.

I also changed out my Handlebar Controls to ones I was more familiar with, all the buttons seemed to be just a little off in location.
I picked up Controls off a ZX-6R like mine and rewired them to Factory Aprilia colors and functions.
This also gave me a Choke Lever for the Dellorto Carb.


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I did change the Red Hazard button function on the ZX controls to shut off the headlights completely and re-wired the Low Beam Indicator light in the Dash to light up RED when the Headlights were off ...


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Spudgun60
01-31-2016, 03:28 PM
Just a quick comment on the CDI unit for the benefit of your readers.

There are 3 different CDI units fitted to the RS50. Which unit was fitted to what bike was dependent to the market in which the bike was sold. The only thing that is known for certain is;The CDI unit that were fitted to UK market machines are unrestricted. This has been proven many a time. The part numbers for the CDI units for the American and European models are different from the UK models. It would currently appear (from what has been written thus far) that the American CDI unit is restricted to 10500 RPM. What the European CDI unit is restricted too is currently unknown.

XERO
01-31-2016, 03:41 PM
Great tech info on the CDI Spud !!!

Here's a picture of the U.S. Market CDI fitted onto my 2001 RS50:


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Never bothered with checking out which CDI this was versus the other Market CDI's ...
Numbers on it for anyone interested : 32395500 00 2

Spudgun60
01-31-2016, 04:15 PM
I've done a little more digging.

America has its own CDI unit.
Switzerland has its own CDI unit.
The rest of planet Earth has the remaining CDI unit.

The only relevant number on a UK CDI unit I can find is: 32399101. The remaining digits are a date code.

ToraTora
01-31-2016, 05:24 PM
Xero, if I ever get some land I'm going to invite you to come visit, and do Garage Building Camp! That garage looks awesome. :)

Spuds my understanding is it was the other way around. That the US bikes were the ones that were not restricted with the ignition. That's certainly the case with the Derbi bikes running the Ducati ignition. But as Xero is mentioning, these days just get an HPI or something. ;)

mattology
02-01-2016, 05:41 AM
I had one rs50 that was restricted and another one that wasn't, both USA models...

XERO
02-02-2016, 07:14 PM
Tora,


Xero, if I ever get some land I'm going to invite you to come visit, and do Garage Building Camp! That garage looks awesome. :)

Thanks, I can't take full credit, my Brother gave up a disgusting amount of time from his Family to help me.
Combined with help from some other good friends and most importantly, Mrs. XERO's blessing !!!
Everyone really pulled together to help get the primary structure up before everything froze.

Gotta love those last minute projects ... LOL

I will say that it is a lot of work building something like this from scratch when you are not in the "construction" trades ...
Still have tons of work to do ...

mattology
02-02-2016, 08:16 PM
this thread rules

ToraTora
02-02-2016, 08:47 PM
I've found that once you've developed the skills/tools to fix/build/create things if you do a bit of research you can re-apply those skills in other areas, and do a decent job of it. More time will generally be required, but the result will be of a decent quality. Your results support my belief in this adaption. The garage looks great. You guys do an awesome job. :)

XERO
02-02-2016, 09:02 PM
Next up on the Mod list was ditching the forever super duper long twist OEM Throttle.
Here I employed some more great treats from Treats ...

Enter the Domino Gas Cross Throttle Assembly :

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This is a "Quick Turn" Throttle and when fitted to the 21mm Dellorto PHBG it is more of an "ON-OFF" switch :D, than a Throttle ...
Not that almost instant WOT is a bad thing on a 50cc, but it does make tuning with it in place a little more challenging, meaning you really need to be paying attention and surgical with it's use.
For that reason I keep the OEM Throttle on hand and swap out when I make changes that require more precise tuning.

The "Standard" version of this Throttle comes with a nylon roller and bushing, the "Full Boat Racing Deluxe" version comes with an enhanced roller and ball bearing !!!


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But fret not Budget Builder, Treats also happens to offer the "Deluxe Upgrade Package" to convert your "Standard" to "Race" ...


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Switching to a "Quick Turn" Throttle will eliminate the OEM Controls on the Right Handlebar, as the RS50 has the Kill Switch and Starter buttons integrated into the whole Throttle Assembly.
If you are building a "Race Only" bike, ditching the Starter button is acceptable, and tethers are commonly used.
If however, you are building a "Street" bike then that could be a deal breaker so you would need to source a stand alone replacement.
Tora just picked up a sleek little unit from Treats :


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I went and sourced a matching ZX Switch Assembly (to my ZX left controls) and again, rewired it to match Aprilia colors and plug.


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Sorry for crap pictures there ...


Fitting this and the 21mm PHBG requires making up a new Throttle Cable to get everything to function correctly.
Add in the retained use of the Oil Injector and there is no way around remaking the Throttle Cable.
This isn't really that difficult, outside of measuring two, three times over again.

The biggest and most important aspect in making up a new cable is making sure everything is adjusted in sync.
You need to make sure that your carb FULLY Opens and Closes and that the Oil Injection Pump reaches Full ON when your carb is at WOT.
If you can't make this happen within the range of the Inline Adjusters then your cable length is wrong.

Here is one of those amazingly simple "tricks" I learned forever ago that makes "Cable Replacement" or "Service" a breeze ...

When removing an old cable from a bike, tie a length of string to the end you will be pulling up and out of the bike.
Once the old cable is out, untie the string and leave it in place.
When you go to re-fit the cable or install a new one, tie the end to the string and pull it back down through.
This will insure that your re-fitted or new cable is routed properly through the bike.
Nothing ruins a low speed "U-turn" like a Throttle that opens up when you turn your handlebars !!!

Clint Eastwood
02-02-2016, 09:57 PM
Well that's a coincidence' bought exactly the same throttle 1 hour ago :lol: :p: comes standard on a Derbi DRD PRO EVO 2008 Limited edition https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/5193724/senda-hyp-drd-evo-ltd-edition-2008-e2-7077ch08012/handlebar-controls so i bought the DRD's longer splitter cable too which has to be shipped all the way over from Italy :( blasting round country roads & towns last night & noticed it took 2 twists with power shifting to wind fully open & then it kept sticking as the tube that holds the cable end has worn & chewed up.

ToraTora
02-03-2016, 06:29 AM
This is why it is important to do research. The DRD does use a very similar Domino throttle to the one that Xero posted. But I believe it has a different cam on the throttle tube.

The throttle that they sell on Treats is what a lot of moto-x bikes employ on PWK carbs. It's also the same throttle that the smaller MotoGP bikes employ. Which is why Treats stocks them. Years ago Progressive brought a bunch of MotoGP bikes to their annual moto show. I went around and took photos of every little bit I could on the little bikes. ;) I then started doing hardcore research on Domino's website.

You can get other throttle tubes with exchangeable cams. This would be one way to get set up for the smaller carbs like the Dellortos. These G2 throttle tubes (http://www.g2ergo.com/store/g2-dirt-tamer/) are kind of expensive, but they totally rock. I have one on the Black bike running a 200X cam. It's really nice. :)


http://www.g2ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/dirt_tamer-500x414.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg49/cactus-jack/Cammedthrottletubes.jpg[

According the their website the Domino throttle employed on the DRD (http://www.domino-group.com/en/catalogue/throttleControls_Detail.aspx?idmaster=2639) has a quickness of 1.9°/mm, and a stroke 50 mm. Its Domino part number is: 2203.03-02. With a little bit of effort you should be able to figure out the part number for the throttle tube, and then have Benji order it for you. ;)


http://www.domino-group.com/data/runtime/images/domino-group.comdominowww.domino-group.com2781F280x163.jpg

The throttle they have at Treats is number 2311.03-02 (http://www.domino-group.com/en/catalogue/throttleControls_Detail.aspx?idmaster=2634). The Domino site shows the same quickness and stroke, however one of them could be incorrect. Which would explain the disparity in functionality. I haven't ridden a DRD, but I can't imagine that they would ship it with a light switch for a throttle. :lol: The DRD ships with a 17.5 PHVA Del, so it doesn't need a whole lot of pull to open it up all the way. Seems what we need to do is get someone with a DRD to open the throttle up and take a photo of the cam. ;)


http://www.domino-group.com/data/runtime/images/domino-group.comdominowww.domino-group.com2779F280x163.jpg

What is quickness and stroke?


How quick are Domino Throttle Controls?
Quickness of a throttle control is shown in degrees of rotation of the throttle tube per 1 mm of movement of the throttle cable (°/mm). The lower this number, the quicker the throttle. So when you see 2.6°/mm that means for every 2.6°of rotation on the throttle, the cable moves 1 mm. "Max Stroke" is the maximum the throttle cable can move

Clint Eastwood
02-03-2016, 07:40 AM
According the their website the Domino throttle employed on the DRD (http://www.domino-group.com/en/catalogue/throttleControls_Detail.aspx?idmaster=2639) has a quickness of 1.9°/mm, and a stroke 50 mm. Its Domino part number is: 2203.03-02. With a little bit of effort you should be able to figure out the part number for the throttle tube, and then have Benji order it for you. ;)


http://www.domino-group.com/data/runtime/images/domino-group.comdominowww.domino-group.com2781F280x163.jpg(Here's where i bought it from (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Domino-Throttle-W-Pulley-2T-No-Grip-Quickness-1-9-mm-Stroke-50-mm-/331506701742?hash=item4d2f56d5ae:g:tfUAAOSw34FVBvW a)) comes with throttle tube already installed' so don't need to go throwing money down the drain by getting 1 shipped all the way over from the richest pedal & pop taco bell sales rep cat meow dude in Murica.

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:nutts:

XERO
02-03-2016, 06:15 PM
Tora,

Thanks for the great contribution on Throttle Tubes.
I may end up switching out to something with a little more throw in the future and those look sweet for sure.
I never did check the "quickness" before I ordered, shame on me ...
But that is the exact reason I made sure to note it's quick action in that Post.


I've found that once you've developed the skills/tools to fix/build/create things if you do a bit of research you can re-apply those skills in other areas, and do a decent job of it. More time will generally be required, but the result will be of a decent quality. Your results support my belief in this adaption.

I too share the same view, thanks.
Really looking forward to the snow going away so I can get back out there ...


Matt,


this thread rules

Thanks, and just wait it's going to get really interesting once I move on to the whole reason I started this Project Thread.
But for now, enjoy the reruns ...


Ian,

If you have something constructive to add to this Thread, please feel free to do so.
If however all you have to offer is your opinion, please keep that to any one of the numerous pity party Threads you have going.
I have no need or desire for your opinion within this Thread.
Oh ...
And based on all the crying you have done on everything you have ordered you might do better buying from a reputable supplier like Treats.
Everything I have ordered from them has been shipped promptly and always arrived just a few days later.

Clint Eastwood
02-03-2016, 06:49 PM
If however all you have to offer is your opinion, please keep that to any one of the numerous pity party Threads you have going.
I have no need or desire for your opinion within this Thread.Not here to derail your thread. however' the whole forum including me is free to post in it ;)


Oh ...
And based on all the crying you have done on everything you have orderedGot evidence with provided links for that huge overreaction?


you might do better buying from a reputable supplier like Treats.
Everything I have ordered from them has been shipped promptly and always arrived just a few days later.Really??? took 4 days to dispatch & over 3 weeks for the Polini Peugeot 103 air filter to arrive from treats. also' they charge a considerable amount more for the Polini CP carb. Wont ever buy from treats again, so that's why i always make it crystal clear that i don't fall for insulting/unnecessary overpriced sales pitches.

ToraTora
02-03-2016, 10:44 PM
Xero, I had to learn about the tubes when my Black bike was run over and the tube was broken. Dante gave me a G2 tube that he had. I ran a 4T cam because it fit in the stock throttle unit. Then I bought the nice Domino throttle (Benji ordered it once I found the part number). I then put the G2 in there, and found that I liked the 200X cam the best.

Ian, it seems that you don't realize that Xero and I live in the USA. Heck this foro is based in the USA as well. Sure there are lots of folks on here that don't live in the States, but in general when people say stuff here it is likely that they are speaking from a perspective of living here in the States. Armed with this knowledge you should have a better understanding with regards to our interaction with Treats. If you don't want to buy form them that's fine. Many of us have had nothing but the best experience with Treats. Now if something you bought got held up in customs you can't really blame that on Treats. Take that up with your legislators.

Clint Eastwood
02-03-2016, 10:57 PM
Ian, it seems that you don't realize that Xero and I live in the USA. Heck this foro is based in the USA as well. Sure there are lots of folks on here that don't live in the States, but in general when people say stuff here it is likely that they are speaking from a perspective of living here in the States. Armed with this knowledge you should have a better understanding with regards to our interaction with Treats. If you don't want to buy form them that's fine. Many of us have had nothing but the best experience with Treats. Now if something you bought got held up in customs you can't really blame that on Treats. Take that up with your legislators.Its wrote next to most profiles - location: so i already know where the (Cats) are based. i don't go legal delivery case ranting unless the product(s) don't turn up after a month & refunds are refused. Treats could have used a faster delivery service for the postage price i paid. as i've already mentioned/pitched...i don't give in to sales pitches to stop company's from going bust when their business fund runs dry, & that's all i'm discussing about Treatland' end of.

XERO
02-04-2016, 06:38 PM
While we are on the subject of throttles and cables I figured I would re-post a tutorial I did on making custom cables here.

If done properly there will be little to no difference with the strength or quality of a cable you make yourself.

Couple of tools you will need to do it right:


Quality Cable Cutters

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Solder Pot

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Also



Sharpie
Ruler
Pointy Punch
File or Grinder
Super Glue
Flux
50/50 Solder


STEP 1:
Measure, Measure, Measure !!!
Seriously, measure it a couple times to make sure you have it right.
NOTE: If you have any adjusters in the cable collapse them entirely and then extend two threads.
Measuring for a new cable from scratch can be a little tricky, draw it and write down various measurements.
Double check everything one last time once you think you have it right ...

STEP 2:
Mark new inner cable and cut to length (don't forget to allow for any difference in sizes of the ends).
Don't use a Cut-Off wheel to cut your inner cable as this tends to fuse the end and will screw you in the next steps.

Top Cable was cut with Cut-Off wheel and is fused together, this is bad !!!
Bottom cable was cut with Cable Cutters, this is what you want. :)


299459


STEP 3:
Dip cut cable end and new brass end into Liquid Flux.
Don't dip your cable any deeper into the flux then what will be covered by the new brass end.
If you do, solder will wick further up into the cable then desired and will make the cable impossible to bend.
NOTE: If you are using an inner cable that is Teflon coated or something along those lines, you must remove the coating where the new end is to be soldered on.
Scraping the coating off with a razor blade worked for me.

This Liquid Flux is great for making cables and cleans up with just water.


299460


STEP 4:
Slip new brass end onto cable and slightly fray the end of the cable.
NOTE: This is important to do, this is what gives your new cable strength !!!
The new brass end should have a bevel to the through hole, make sure your frayed end is on this side of the new end.


299461


It is hard to see in this photo but there is a small bevel.
Fraying the cable is easy to do using a pointed punch, but don't fray the cable too much.
Pull the new fitting up onto the frayed end.
The frayed end of the cable will nest nicely into the beveled end of the new brass end.


299462


STEP 5:
Dip your cable and end into Solder Pot.
NOTE: Don't dip the cable any deeper than new end.


299463


You will have to make a few practice ends to figure out the correct temperature setting on your Solder Pot and the amount of time you will need to keep your new end submerged in the molten solder.
Every cable and end combination will be different do to the amount of heat needed to get it soldered correct, practice first !!!
The cable pictured above is 1.2mm in diameter and is fine for use on small carbs, chokes, and oil injectors.
Make sure you are using the correct diameter cable for your task, this cable would NOT work for a clutch !!!


299464


Above is a finished end soldered onto a 1.6mm Teflon coated cable.

STEP 6:
Thoroughly wash your newly soldered end.
This neutralizes the acid in the flux and removes any residue.
If left on it will eventually corrode your new cable and ruin it.

STEP 7:
Put it all together ...
Make sure you don't have any burrs on the cut end of the outer cable and it is flat.
I use a little grinder to dress the end and remove the little burr left from cutting.

A little dab of Super Glue to hold the Thimble onto the end of the outer cable.


299465

299466


P.S. Don't forget to lube your new custom cable before you install it !!!

Resources:

Flanders Company
http://www.flandersco.com/index.html
Brass cable ends, 50/50 solder, Liquid Flux

ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-ML-21C-Mini-Lead-Free-Solder-Pot-/301639349587?
Inexpensive Solder Pot $32.00 us

Treat Land
https://www.treatland.tv/default.asp
Inner / Outer cable, Bendys, Thimbles, Adjusters

ToraTora
02-04-2016, 07:21 PM
Xero you have so many cool tools. Thanks for the links. :)

XERO
02-04-2016, 10:15 PM
Gotta have tools if you wanna do the job yourself ...

I personally get more satisfaction from trying and failing than I do from paying someone to do something for me.

Outside of those Cable Cutters, I think I have like $50 into tools needed to make my own cables.
Those Cable Cutters are "sold-through" Snap-On at 3x-4x the regular Retail value just so you can have a Snap-On Logo printed on your tool.
I won't divulge what I paid for those from the Snap-On Dealer for fear of relentless ridicule ...
I have seen many acceptable alternatives to those at fair prices, just look for ones that shear the cable inwards onto it's self.
This style of Cutter minimizes fraying of the cable, standard scissor type Cutters pinch the strands off and spread them out like a fan.
This makes threading a Housing or End Fitting much more difficult.

Motion Pro offers a "Custom Cable Service" and will work with you to make the exact cable needed if anyone would prefer not to make their own.
I will note that when I inquired about having a cable made up for a Throttle, Carb, and Oil Injection they wanted to have all those items shipped to them so they could verify the correct lengths needed and in turn assure fitment (completely understandable).
And for price comparison, Motion Pro wanted $80 to make the whole cable assembly.

With all that said, $80 for a "Custom Made Cable" isn't bad, but for $50 + Cutter (of choice) + Parts and you can make your own forever ...

ToraTora
02-04-2016, 11:01 PM
I hear you, and that's the song I sing most of the time. :)

Park makes a pretty nice cable cutter for bicycles--it's not Snap-On expensive, but it is one of the most expensive Park hand tools you can buy. I have one of those--got it on a big discount sale. I don't know if it can handle the moto needs, but I think I'll check into it. It should be able to do throttle cables, but maybe not clutch cables. I don't use cables for brakes on anything of mine that's not a BMX race bike. :P

The tool I really like from your list is the solder pot. That's something for which I am lusting. :lol:

After all this I am looking forward to seeing how you set up the garage. :D Do you weld? I use to have a really nice Miller mig. That was sweet. It was liberated by a less than honest roommate. So now I take all my welding stuff to JP. He does beautiful welds so I don't feel too bad about it--even though I really enjoy welding. ¯ \_(ツ)_/¯

XERO
02-05-2016, 08:35 PM
Tora,

I can and have done a fair amount of welding (MIG & TIG).
I do not own a welder, but would love to have something along the lines of the Miller Dynasty I used at a previous job.
Can't wait to see some feedback posted from Matt on that unit he bought.
I would take an older Miller Cricket 110v. MIG if I could find one in good shape and at a fair price.
Loved those little things, perfect for sheet metal and small to mid sized projects.

As for TIG, I can do a good job with steels but was never able to get aluminum down.
I tried and failed and tried and failed and tried and failed, but could never get a sexy looking weld, so I leave that to those with that talent.
Anymore I leave welding to other guys, never really liked doing it in the first place so why bother for now ...

I'm really looking forward to see how I set-up this garage as well LOL !!!
I have so much shit to stuff into it ...
I hope that when I get it all buttoned up it will function like this ...


299527

mattology
02-06-2016, 01:05 AM
I should probably post in my thread more. I promise there will be more updates soon, I've just been healing up and working on the 240Z. I got the welder working pretty awesome now.

dude I used a butane torch and solder wire to do my cables hahaha. your setup is awesome.

mattology
02-08-2016, 02:46 PM
how about keep it in your own thread

XERO
02-08-2016, 07:15 PM
Here was one of those fun "Arts & Crafts" project I did on my RS.

The Tail Light on the RS is pathetic to start with, add in the ever varying intensity of it running off just the AC Lighting Coil and you have yourself a recipe for getting rear ended.
Years ago a friend of mine was punted by a cager and needless to say he was seriously injured, broken back, torn this, dislocated that, etc. ...
Not my idea of a good time.

Re-wiring the entire lighting system to run off the Battery sure did help the little dim bulb, but I wanted a little more.
Stepping up to an LED Bulb helped but I felt that the LED didn't light up enough of the whole Tail Light Lens, just in the center.
This is rather common with LED's as most have a very narrow angle of light projection.


299734


So after doing a little ebay digging I found an LED Ring that was Red and small enough to fit into the Tail Light Housing.

50mm O.D. Red LED Ring​


299735


Up next was some Hot Melt Glue action


299736


I ran the little wires down into the Socket contacts and added a little dab of Hot Melt Glue to keep them in place


299737

299738


Now the whole Tail Light Lens lit up, but it was just a little too bright in the Tail Light mode and it was hard to differentiate between Tail and Brake modes.
This is also a common problem with LED's, easy fix though ...
Added a Resistor to the Tail Light feed wire at the Socket.


299743


I can't remember the exact value Resistor I ended up using and to be honest the Resistor value will vary depending on the bulb/bulbs you would use.
The idea is to knock down the Tail Light voltage just a little to lower the output of the Tail Light mode LED's.
(Radio Shack used to sell all sorts of variety packs of Resistors)
A few minutes spent swapping out Resistors will get you whatever look you are looking for.

ToraTora
02-09-2016, 11:30 PM
That's cool how you created the halo effect. Photos of it lit up? Please. :)

XERO
02-10-2016, 05:58 PM
I have tried many times to get a good photo of it, but it always washes out my camera and doesn't do it any justice.
If you can't tell by some of the pictures I have posted, my phone takes really random quality photos one will look good the next one seconds later is total crap.
I have gone through so many phones that I stopped buying the "lastest greatest" and settle for whatever I can get my hands on cheap or free.
I will see if Mrs. XERO will let me borrow her iphone, perhaps I will have better luck then.

It does not light up with that "halo effect" though due to the fluting in the lens.
If the RS had just a smooth red lens then it would give that effect.
Think of it more as a mellow uniform glow that gets stupid bright when you put on the brakes.
Seriously, stupid bright !!!

Another thing I like about LED lights, is that they light up faster than incandescent bulbs.
With as preoccupied as people are driving these days, every fraction of a second counts.

Here are some really crappy pictures I took anyways ...


Tail Light Mode:


299907


Brake Light Mode:


299908

XERO
02-12-2016, 11:18 PM
Here is an overview of the process I used for molding the urethane adapter I needed to fit my PHBG Carb to the Intake Manifold I had.


300025


Casting your own custom parts isn't really hard once you have the basics down, it's just a matter of thinking in the negative.
Meaning, that you must look at the part you want to make and what the area surrounding it would look like.
To make a mold for something you must create a surface that is the exact opposite of what you want.
This can be accomplished in any number of ways but for now we will look at the process I used for this part.

The part I wanted to create needed details on both the interior surface and the exterior surface.
This adds complexity to the mold and therefore consideration must be taken to allow for the pieces of the mold to release from the part once it is cast.
Almost all molds must have some form of "draft" built into them (draft is a term pertaining to the angle of a surface as to allow it to only get smaller as it is extends).
This assures that the part will be able to be removed from the cavity (the mold).


300026


If your part is something solid then you will have no choice but to account for draft when making the mold.
Never forget this, if you do you will have a part stuck in your mold and the only way to remove it will be to destroy one or the other.
My part on the other hand was something flexible, this gave me the option of "cheating" when I made the mold for it.
Knowing that my part would be able to be manipulated to remove it from the mold allowed me to simplify the design of the mold.

The Intake Manifold I purchased from Treats had a molded rubber coupler with a internal beaded groove in it.
The Dellorto 21mm PHBG was smaller in diameter and also had a beaded groove in it.
This was the exact opposite of what was needed.


300027


So, to make the two items fit together I needed to enlarge the diameter of the carb to match the rubber coupler and also incorporate 2 beads (one inside and one outside).
The first step was to make a shape (plug) that would be the exact negative of the inside profile of the rubber coupler.
The next would be to make a shape (plug) that would be the exact negative of the outside profile of the carb.
Finally, I needed a container that I would be able to create the mold into.

Here is a picture of all the finished parts needed to make the mold, and the mold itself:


300028


The black part in the above photo is the negative of the inside profile of the Manifold's rubber coupler, the silver part is the negative of the outside profile of the PHBG.

To create the mold I placed the black part into the plastic container and used a 2-part silicone molding compound (green stuff in photo) to fill in the gap.


300030


The silicone (when mixed) is like Silly-Putty and packed nicely into the container around the black part representing the interior shape.
Once the silicone cured I was able to remove it all from the container and pop the black plug out.

NOTE: you must use some form of "mold release", this prevents the elements of your mold from sticking together.


300031


With the exterior shape mold completed it was time to place the plug if the interior shape into the mold.
If you notice there is a hole in the center of the plastic container, this is where I bolted the silver plug (interior surface profile) into the mold.

DON'T FORGET THE MOLD RELEASE !!!

Once I had everything assembled I mixed up some "room temperature cure" urethane.


300032


This stuff is like a really, really thick molasses ...
(You must be exact when measuring out the 2 components of the urethane, they are done by weight)
Next , I poured the liquid urethane into the mold until it was full.
(urethane has a tendency to hold bubbles in it, vibrate your mold to get them to settle out)

After a few hours the urethane was cured and I was able to remove the entire mold from the plastic container.
Because the silicone that created the outside shape was flexible I was able to peel it away from the cast urethane part.
With the silicone removed I was then able to flex the urethane part and pop out the silver plug from the inside.

And here it is ...


300033


TAAAAA-DAAAAA, custom urethane adapter ...


Don't be intimidated by making molds, just be prepared for failure and most importantly, have all the right materials.
After a few attempts you will feel like a pro ...

aphasia
02-13-2016, 05:48 AM
Ingenious, every problem has a potential solution. Mine tends to be throw it away and buy a new one.

Respect. :worship:

XERO
02-15-2016, 09:01 PM
From time to time when we are building up for a project we buy one item and then later find something "better" or "better suited".

When this happens you have to decide if you really want that newly found item, or should you just stick with what you have already purchased.
This can sometimes be a rather painful situation for the wallet, and in this case it was ...

So to help take my mind off my bleeding wallet, I thought I would offer up a rather unique look at 2 Aftermarket items for the AM6 side-by-side.

Today's Main Event :

Bidalot Clutch Kit vs Top Performance Clutch Kit


300333


For all Pictures:
Bidalot on the LEFT
Top Performance on the RIGHT


Before I get into all the pictures I need to note some items :



The Top Performance Kit does not include the Hub or Pressure Plate that i have in the pictures.

(With the Top Kit you will need to re-use both of those items from your original Clutch.)


Both Clutch Kits will delete the use of the Oil Injection and Tach

(Both Kits come with new Water Pump Gears that are required to mesh with the new Clutch Basket.)
(The original Gears for the Oil Injection and Tach will not mesh with the new Clutch Baskets.)


Both Kits will also delete the use of a Kick Starter, again Gears will not mesh.
Both Kits include new Roller (Needle) Bearings to replace the Bushing used on the Factory Assembly.
Both Kits change the helical cut gears on the Basket to straight cut gears and come with a new drive gear to mate.
Both Kits alter the Primary Gear Ratio from the Factory Ratio, but do so differently.


So on with the pictures ...

Here we can see that the Bidalot assembly is taller than the Top Performance.
The Bidalot Kit also steps up to 5 Clutch Springs, while the Top Kit still uses 4 Springs.
(The Top Performance Clutch Springs are "heavier" than the originals)


300336


Bidalot Basket / Gear is bolted together.
Top Performance Basket / Gear is riveted.
Also note the "lightening" holes versus the ribs.
The Top Gear looks much stronger, but I like the "bolt-on" of the Bidalot.


300337


Bidalot Basket is CNC machined and anodized.
Top Performance Basket is cast and also has some form of coating applied to it.
Hey, the Top Basket has "lightening" holes.
Here you can see the Top Basket is larger in diameter than the Bidalot.


300338


Next up are the Hubs and Pressure Plates :

Here again, the Bidalot Hub is CNC machined and anodized.
The Factory Aprilia Hub is raw cast aluminum and must be re-used from your original Clutch if you go with the Top Performance Kit.
Both Pressure Plates are raw cast aluminum, Bidalot Kit includes one, Top Performance Kit you must re-use original.
NOTE :
The OEM Aprilia Hub and Pressure Plate in these pictures are new, they have never been mounted or ran.
If you go with the Top Kit, be prepared to purchase new ones if your original ones are badly worn or damaged.
Also, take a close look at the Bidalot Pressure Plate compared to the Aprilia one.
Notice the machined surface for the Friction Plate?
Same goes with the Aprilia Hub ...


300340


The Bidalot Hub is also bolt together multi-piece, Base Plate, Splined Hub, and 5 Spring Stand-offs !!!
Note the Derbi Pressure Plate with the Bidalot Kit.
(The Derbi Pressure Plate has been modified by Bidalot to work with the AM6 Clutch Push Rods)


300341


I don't think there is anything I need to point out when comparing the 2 Kits from the photo below ...


300342


I will post some more "comparison" pictures in my next Post, along with some more tasty tech info.
Stay tuned ...

mattology
02-15-2016, 09:50 PM
top is on the right bidalot on the left ??? I think you made a typo

ToraTora
02-16-2016, 01:02 AM
It's pretty easy to see that the main advantage of the Top unit is the straight cut gears, and the bearings on the shaft. ;) I actually don't see how it would in anyway produce a better clutch experience.

Those are nice touches, but I'm surprised how thin the AM6 clutch discs are compared to the Derbi clutch discs--that's nearly double the surface area. Makes me wonder if you really need the two extra discs on a Derbi, and therefore the Bidalot. :eek:

Even with the 19 HP engine on the Derbi with the stiffer springs I didn't overwhelm the clutch. I wonder how much HP you would need to cause the Derbi clutch to slip, thus the need for six discs.

Anyway!!! Thanks for another great post. I'm really enjoying what's going on around here these days. :)

XERO
02-16-2016, 06:05 PM
top is on the right bidalot on the left ??? I think you made a typo

Thanks Matt, fixed it.

XERO
02-27-2016, 08:20 AM
Here are some more comparison photos and info of the clutches.
This round I have included some pictures of the Factory Aprilia parts too.


SPRINGS


301493


LEFT to RIGHT
Bidalot,Top Performance, Aprilia original

Spring Tech:

Aprilia


14.6mm O.D.
30.0mm Free Length
2.0mm Wire Dia.
5 Active Coils
4 Springs Used
91.7 lbs/in Spring Rate (each)


TopPerformance


15.0mm O.D.
30.0mm Free Length
2.25mm Wire Dia.
5 Active Coils
4 Springs Used
142.5 lbs/in Spring Rate (each)


Bidalot


14.6mm O.D.
34.0mm Free Length
2.0mm Wire Dia.
5 Active Coils
5 Springs Used
91.7 lbs/in Spring Rate (each)


(NOTE: Spring Rates based on standard Music Wire construction, for general comparison purposes only.)

Looking at the above info you can see that the Top Performance springs have the heaviest Spring Rate of the lot, which certainly accounts for less slip.
The Top springs boast a 55% increase in Total Spring Rate compared to the Factory Aprilia ones.
This also means that the pull at the Clutch Lever will be much heavier as well.
The Bidalot springs are of the same Spring Rate as the Factory Aprilia ones, but the Bidalot Clutch adds an extra spring into the mix to beef-up the Total Spring Rate an extra 25% over Aprilia.


FRICTIONS


301495

LEFT to RIGHT
Bidalot,Top Performance, Aprilia original



301496

TOP to Bottom
Bidalot,Top Performance, Aprilia original


Friction Tech:

Aprilia

115mm O.D.
100mm I.D
2.9mm Thick (plates measured were used but good)
2.75mm Plate Thickness
4 Friction Discs per Pack
110.5 mm² Surface Area per Disc
442 mm² Total Surface Area per Pack


Top Performance


115mm O.D.
100mm I.D.
2.95mm Thick
2.6mm Plate Thickness
4 Friction Discs per Pack
121 mm² Surface Area per Disc
484 mm² Total Surface Area per Pack


Bidalot


108mm O.D.
83mm O.D.
3.05mm Thick
2.75mm Plate Thickness
6 Friction Discs per Pack
172.5 mm² Surface Area per Disc
1035 mm² Total Surface Area per Pack


Looking at the numbers above it is clear that Bidalot reigns supreme in Total Surface Area.

This however does not take into account the Coefficient of Friction for the materials used in making the Friction Discs.
I do not know what anyone is using, so it would be impossible to judge them without more data.

When I first started upping the output of my RS I quickly over powered the Factory Clutch, and this was with the Factory 50cc top end.
I ordered and installed a Barnett Clutch Kit (Frictions, Steels, Springs) and the slip was gone.
The Frictions in my bike were replaced about a year before I purchased it with genuine Aprilia ones, so I would say that my issue was more with spring pressure than worn discs.
(I did not include any info on the Barnett kit as this is still installed in the engine, once removed I will add the specs to this Post.)


Next Post will cover the change in Primary Gearing between the Top Performance and Bidalot Clutch Kits as compared to the Factory Aprilia set-up.

XERO
03-06-2016, 09:42 AM
Looking deeper into the Clutches and you will note that both the Top Performance and the Bidalot kits alter the Primary Gear Ratio from Factory.
To get a better understanding of how this will effect the output of the engine one needs to do some basic math, so break out your calculator ...

Calculating individual gear ratios is just simple division, divide the number of teeth in the Driven Gear by the number of teeth in the Drive Gear.
Example, Factory Aprilia Primary Gears are 71 tooth and 20 tooth, so 71/20=3.550
What then does that 3.550 mean?
It is the number of rotations the Drive Gear must do to make the Driven Gear complete one full rotation.
Expressed as a ratio and you will see it like this 1:3.550 or 3.550:1 depending on the source and how the tooth count was written.

Moving on from a single individual Gear Ratio to a Gear Train and we must do some multiplication.
To calculate for Total Gear Ratios you must multiply all the individual ratios together, Primary Ratio x Gear Box Ratio x Final Drive Ratio = Total
Example, Factory Aprilia Primary 20/70 x Factory Aprilia 6th Gear 25/24 x Factory Aprilia Final Drive 12/47
3.550 x .960 x 3.916 = 13.346

What can you do will all that?
All kinds of "Theoretical Desktop" tuning ...
For Starters there are tons of "Top Speed" calculators out there and in order to make any use of them you will need to be able fill in the blanks.
Speed projection can be rather useful when making gearing changes to suit your riding.
You can also use those ratios to see how torque is transferred from your engine to the rear wheel.
Changes in gearing will alter how the torque generated at the Crankshaft is multiplied through the Gear Box and the Final Drive.
With plotting out the ratios you can get a relative idea of how your Engine will respond to them.
Keep in mind that there is no "free lunch" when it comes to changing gearing, if you want to increase speed you must reduce applied torque and vise versa.

Ok, so on with the Tech ...

Here is a chart comparing the Factory Aprilia set-up to the Top Performance and Bidalot Clutch Kits.
Note: "Speed" projections are based on 110/80 Rear Tire at 12,000 RPM. There is no account for Friction, Drag, etc., it is solely for the purpose of a general comparison.


302219


Looking at the above data in another way and we can now see the slight difference made by altering the Primary Gear Ratio.
We can see that the Top kit pushes the whole "speed" curve up a notch and the Bidalot kit hangs really close to the Factory Aprilia set-up.
I would suspect that the Bidalot kit uses Primary Gears like that fitted on the Derbi engines, perhaps Tora can verify this.


302220


What else can we take from this?
As noted earlier there is no "free lunch", so in order for the Top kit to obtain that higher projected "speed" some applied torque must be sacrificed.
Gears are nothing more than levers and if you change the length of a lever you will alter the amount of force it can apply.
With gears you are changing the diameter (tooth count) but the lever principal still applies.

Looking at those Primary Ratios again in terms of a lever and it should be clear to see how this is.
The ratio is now viewed as the length of a lever which multiplies the force that is applied from the other end.

Example, Factory Spec AM6 makes 8.16 hp at 10,000 rpm = 5.8 lb/ft torque.
torque = hp x 33000 / 2 π x rpm

Aprilia Primary 3.55 = 5.8 lb/ft torque
Top Primary 3.4 = 5.56
Bidalot Primary 3.526 = 5.76

So, by installing the Top Clutch Kit we can expect slightly higher "speed" but less "grunt".
Good thing you bought that BBK !!!

Next Post will look into more gearing potential on the AM6, keep those calculators handy ...

ToraTora
03-06-2016, 02:56 PM
Yeah another great post Mr. Xero!

The Euro2 Derbi engine has a ratio of 3.714 (21/78). That is to say it has a slightly longer lever. ;)

The Euro3 probably employs the same setup, but I don't know for sure.

Here's part of the spread sheet I set up for these things.


302237

ToraTora
03-07-2016, 01:55 AM
So I was looking in the Derbi repair manual for ESP, and I saw that the ratio is actually 3.5 (22/77). So I'm going to have to check and see why my spread sheet doesn't agree with the engine manual. hmm...

XERO
03-10-2016, 06:34 PM
Tora,
Thanks for looking into the Derbi Primary.
Guess Bidalot just did their own thing then.

Spread Sheets are the best way to keep track of all sorts of mods.
Sure beats the old school 3-ring binders and lost notepads of yester-year !!!
Only real draw back is when you have a complete Hard Drive implosion and for some dumb reason .xls extensions weren't included in your Back-up Sets ...

I also make a point of scanning all my Installation Manuals and receipts, digital cameras have done away with a lot of the scanning work too.

Regarding the discrepancy of Primary Gears, I have a Document directly from Top Performance that state 30/68 gearing.
Way off from the 20/68 it actually came with !!!

ToraTora
03-10-2016, 07:58 PM
Xero, forgive me for saying it, but really...just cave and get an OS X machine. ;)

I use to carry a pen everywhere. It was more important than my keys. And now I can't even remember when I stopped, but I never do anymore because of my pocket computer. :)

I still haven't found where I got those first numbers. And while the Derbi and the AM6 have what look like very different gears, the ratio comes out close enough. And you can always adjust for it with the sprockets.

aphasia
03-10-2016, 08:03 PM
@ToraTora

The Euro3 probably employs the same setup, but I don't know for sure.

It does according to my RS4 manual. 302633

XERO
03-10-2016, 09:15 PM
Tora,

Mrs. XERO and Son are all about their Apple products, I prefer Windows / Android garbage.
Never been a fan of the Apple, don't get me wrong though I do think the Apple OS is a much better platform than "hack me" Windows.
Some of the Software I use isn't available for Apple machines, so I would say that is a majority of my lean towards Windows.
On a similar note, my "phone of inconceivable randomness" has died and after looking into all the purse sized phones out there, I think my next might just be an iPhone.
Mrs. Xero's iPhone is so much more pocket friendly than this Samsung brick I am currently using.

ToraTora
03-11-2016, 05:29 AM
Xero,

I'm a musician. Been one since before there was a Mac, so I've been using the Mac to do music for as long as they have been around. But there are sometimes apps that I want to/need to use that are not (or were not) available on the Mac. Did I go out and buy a MSW machine? Well actually I do have one that I won in a scholarship, but ah what I do is run MSW in a virtualizer. Works great, and music apps have to function in real time--so they have to be fast. ;)

Anyway enough evangelizing. You already know I have huge respect for you. :)

APH--thanks for checking into the Euro3 action. Have you opened that engine up? I'm curious if they have the shelf inside the cases that prevent the installation of BBKs.

mudduc
03-11-2016, 06:52 AM
Hey ZERO,

Thanks for this great thread. Love all the details. It will be a great help for me in the future.
Thanks to mattology's spare parts engine and your (and ToraTora's) recommendations for parts, I should have my RS50 back on the street in about 2 weeks. I'll be keeping an eye out here for modification ideas.
I appreciate all the time and effort you are giving to these helpful instructions. Great job on the garage, by the way.

Later,
Kent Larson in Minnesota

XERO
03-12-2016, 06:51 AM
mudduc,

Thanks, always appreciate positive feedback from readers.
Defiantly keep checking back, I have some really good stuff coming once I get the garage finished.
I also have some really crazy stuff lined up too :D

As for the garage, it was a slow Winter and all the snow we go really put a lag on things.
The weather is clearing up and I am back at it when i'm not working.
I did get my first official wall hanging for inside the garage, can't wait to put it up ...


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XERO
03-13-2016, 06:58 AM
If you didn't get enough Gear Ratio mumbo-jumbo in the last Post, here ya go ...

More gearing mods to the AM6 are available with altering the Transmission Ratios.
Doppler used to make a complete Gear Box with altered ratios, but I haven't been able to find one for sale these days.
Top Performance offers replacement gears and they sell a 26 tooth 6th Gear for higher top speeds.
And finally, Bidalot sells a complete Gear Box with altered ratios.

I picked up the Bidalot Gear Box for my RS, complete with all gears, shims, and shafts.


302827
302828
302829


The quality looks really nice too, no rough edges or burrs anywhere.

The Bidalot Transmission alters the ratios of gears 1-4 and leaves 5-6 the same as Factory.
Knowing that I plan on fitting this Gear Box to one of the altered Primary Ratio Clutches, I figured it best to run the numbers.

Here is some more spread sheet action to tell the story ...


302830


And another graph to better illustrate where the changes in ratios plays out.


302831


Taking what we learned from the last Post on Primary Ratios, you can see that there will be a reasonable reduction in applied torque when fitting this.
Yes, speed will be increased but there will be less "grunt" down low.
One would certainly need to "up" the power output of the engine to not feel completely let down after installing one of these.

So which set-up would be best, the Top Primary w/ Bidalot Trans or the Bidalot Primary w/ Bidalot Trans ???
That I think would be dependent on how much power your engine is producing.
If you have a BBK with lots of snot then you could definitely get away with the Top / Bidalot set-up.
If your BBK is more mild than it might be better to run the Bidalot / Bidalot set-up.

On the flip side of that coin if your BBK is making crazy power the Bidalot Clutch is far superior to the Top Clutch.
Perhaps with a little work the Top Basket could be severed from the gear and drilled and tapped to accept the Bidalot Basket.
I think I need to look into that ...

ToraTora
03-13-2016, 09:15 PM
You could probably get a Derbi basket to put on the Top gear. Then you wouldn't have to mess up that super nice French action. ;)

Looks great, and thanks for all the pr0n!

XERO
04-16-2016, 07:05 AM
I have been crazy busy the past few weeks so little has been to my RS and even less for adding content here.
With all the chatter going about lately I felt compelled to get to work on my EGT project too ...

I had a down evening this week and rather than work on the Garage I figured I work in the Garage for a change.
So this was the perfect excuse to crack into the EGT, and I mean that literally.

I had spent a lot of time looking for just the right EGT Gauge to complement the RS's Gauge Cluster and was unable to find anything I liked.
I really wanted an analog style gauge as none of the RS Gauges are digital, but it looked more and more like I was left with no choice.
All of the analog EGT Gauges I found were "full sweep" units and almost the size of the Speedo, there isn't a lot of extra room for another full sized gauge. The smaller sized gauges I found all looked like they belonged in a Hot Wheels car or a cereal box.
Then I found this little guy ...


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Yes, yes I know how does a Chrome Gauge complement the RS's Gauges ???
Well it doesn't but if you were to compare the face of the EGT Gauge to the face of the Water Temp Gauge ...


305601


Anyone wanna guess what happens next?

Yep surgery ...
I was able to very carefully uncrimp the bezel on the RS's H2O Gauge and extract the gauge itself.
This is a slow time consuming process to do with out destroying the bezel.
If anyone plans on attempting this, take your time and be very patient.


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As for the Chrome Gauge, I thought of it more like a cadaver ...
I just ground the bezel lip off and opened it up to take what I wanted from the inside.


305603


I have a little more work to do to make everything fit perfect before I close it up, but it fits !!!


305604


I am still on the fence about attempting to swap the pointers, they might be able to be interchanged but I think it's more of a long shot than what I have done so far.
I will Post up more in Part 2 ...

XERO
04-24-2016, 06:36 AM
This gauge swap turned into a lot more work than I was anticipating, but not impossible work.
I knew that it wouldn't be a direct "plug and play" affair so it was just a matter of keep trimming until everything lined up and fit.
The EGT gauge had a completely different set-up for terminals and required a lot of grinding and hole modification of the gauge housing.
Here you can see everything Aprilia has been removed ...


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I also picked up some new bulb sockets from eBay, unfortunately they weren't directly compatible with the hole already there.
I had to enlarge the holes to a letter Y (.404") drill bit and grind the raised lips off of the gauge housing on both the inside and outside.


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So, what did all that work get me?


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A well fitted EGT Gauge that looks like it was Factory installed.

As you can see I couldn't leave the pointer alone.
After some careful measuring I determined that the two pointers weren't interchangeable but that wasn't about to stop me this far in.
The orange pointer of the Aprilia H2O gauge was able to be removed from it's base and I was able to carefully file a slot onto the pointer base of the EGT gauge (in line with the original pointer) and glue the orange pointer in place.
So the next big question is, does it still work ???
Stay tuned readers, Part 3 coming up next ...

mattology
04-24-2016, 10:14 PM
incredible.

XERO
05-28-2016, 08:19 AM
Haven't had much extra time lately to wrench on my RS and EGT Action has had a few production delays.
The Thermocouple that came with my EGT Gauge was definitely Automotive sized, damn near 6mm in diameter with a 1/4 NPT fitting.


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No way that was going to work, so I sourced a high quality unit that was half the diameter and designed for 2 Stroke use (oil/gas).
Unfortunately I knew I was going to be pushing space envelope with the lower faring and sure enough I was busted.
This Thermocouple was just a little too long and would prevent the fairing from going on.
So I called up the Company I purchased the sensor from to see if it was possible to have one made that was shorter.
After a few minutes of beating around the bush the Engineer said that they just so happened to have the exact same sensor but 1" shorter.
So what's the catch you ask?
Well it turns out it's custom made for the Military for their Drones and he wasn't sure if he could sell it to me.
That's a big catch ...
The Engineer contacted me the following day and said he got the OK to send me one and it was on it's way and all I had to do was ship back the one I just purchased from them, even trade.
How sweet is that deal !!!!!!


309221


Next delay came with not being able to remove my Speedo from the Gauge Cluster Housing.
What a big pain in the ass, time sucking failure of an endeavor.
This forced me to rethink the next few steps to completing my EGT project.
I ended up having to order a new Gauge Cluster Housing from Aprilia and wait for the "slow boat" from Italy.
More time sucking ...
Finally got the new Housing and started working on it when my work schedule blew up and has now sucked all of my time.
So for now production of the next episode of EGT Action is currently on pause.
No worries, it will be worth it when it's done.

I have managed to get some work done on the Bike Garage and started moving tools and such in.
And have even found a little time to have some fun.


309222

XERO
06-13-2016, 06:18 PM
Here's an update on my EGT progress ...

With a proper sized Thermocouple in hand I set out to mark off the actual installation point.
Like others who have installed these sensors, there is a limitation to usable real estate and on my RS the spring mounts were it.


310556


This meant that I would be placing my sensor just past the springs and this basically added up to 150+ mm from the piston.
I have always placed Thermocouples as close to the exhaust valve as possible (note the word valve) and this was much further than typical.
A while back when there was a discussion regarding placement of the sensor Mattology speced 150mm was optimal.
At the time i didn't really see that there would be an issue with placement that far away and agreed that there was no reason it wouldn't work optimally at that distance.
Later Matt mentioned one of those simply small details the make you say daaaahhhhhhh, dumbass ...
2 Strokes have an exhaust scavenging phenomenon ...
Remember the word "valve" I used earlier?
Yep, dumbass XERO didn't even give a second thought to the differences between 2 & 4 Stroke exhaust systems.
So, thanks for pointing out the detail I forgot to take into consideration Matt.

I took this next picture to show what someone would be getting into if they were to grind off the seam found on some pipe's downtubes.


310557


Not able to leave anything alone, I decided to ditch the weld in bung and modify the compression fitting for the sleekest in fitment to the pipe.


310558


Here I chucked up the compression fitting in a mill and work and machined off the NPT threads and then contoured the hex of the fitting to match the curve of the pipe.
If you look close at the hex you will noticed it has a Pringles chip type shape to it.

Next up was having a friend weld it all together for me.


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And here is a picture of the installed Thermocouple.


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While I had the exhaust off I took the opportunity to glass bead the entire pipe and give it a nice fresh paint job with some off the shelf exhaust paint.


310561


I have jet to get my gauge installed but I can view the temp using my Multimeter (Fluke makes units that accept K type Thermocouple inputs).
I haven't gotten it out on the road to view anything but I did monitor it while I was running the engine to cure the new exhaust paint.
Really looking forward to getting the gauge installed and getting to fully exploit this EGT project.

XERO
06-18-2016, 07:19 AM
From time to time I get this urge to just buy something for my RS.
I don't know what, but I need to get it something.
I'm not ready for the next big purchase yet, but I need to get it something.
Not a lot of extra cash this week, but I need to get it something.

So this happens all the time and I figured out a solution a while back and have been slowly chipping away at that "something".
Now when I get that urge I bust out my notepad and place and order relative to my funds.

What is that "something" that I keep buying for my RS over and over again?

Titanium, lots of titanium ...


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Here's some more that I haven't bagged up yet.


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And this is for all those items you can't just buy.


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Considering titanium is about 40% lighter than steel this should add up to a nice little drop in pant size for my RS.
Dropping excess weight is a great way to enhance any vehicle, let alone a pint sized motorcycle that is way under powered.
Titanium is also much stronger than your average steel fastener and it doesn't rust.
Looks super sexy too !!!

Lots more titanium to come for my RS, gonna be some serious CNC time coming ...

mihal
06-18-2016, 04:20 PM
Nice! This is how I like it :D keep posting your progress :)

XERO
07-08-2016, 08:16 AM
This EGT project of mine is turning into a career.
So I got the thermocouple install all done up in the last installment of EGT Action and figured it was time to go do some testing.
I hooked up my modified EGT Gauge and fired up the bike ...
...
...
...
No readings on the Gauge WTF !!!
Wait, flicker of the needle, another flicker, and another but no temp reading.
Well I can't say I was overly surprised for as much handling as I did to it to figure out how to make everything fit.
Such is life when you are modifying the shit out of stuff.
So I wrote this one off to my error and ordered up a replacement.

This time I figured it would be best to test the gauge before cracking it open.
I hooked up the un-modified EGT Gauge and fired up the bike ...
...
...
...
No readings on the Gauge WTF !!!
Seriously, WTF !!!
Wait, flicker of the needle, another flicker, and another but no temp reading.
Ok, now I'm perplexed and WTF !!!

So the description of the EGT Gauge states it comes with a K type Thermocouple, I did not use the sensor that came with the gauge I purchased a different K type Theremocouple.
Upon further investigation I believe the thermocouple that came with the gauge is an E type, not a K type.
Thermocouples have a series of Industry Standard wire colors, K type are red and yellow and the sensor that came with the gauge is black and red.
Think I was screwed by an incorrect description ...
That was a lot of work for essentially nothing and it gets worse, I was well on my way with my custom Gauge Cluster ...


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I had started blending 2 gauge clusters together to be able to have two of the small round gauges in a Factory looking dash.
That was the whole purpose for gutting a Water Temp Gauge and fitting an EGT Gauge inside of it.
Well it was a good idea, just foiled by the product description :bangwall:

So, where do I go from here?
I have been struggling with that for the past few weeks and I still want to finish and use this Gauge Cluster with 2 small round gauges.
Back to hunting for another EGT Gauge ...

This left me right where I was when I first started looking for a gauge to complement the rest of the RS's gauges, digital or yo-yo style.
After some more digging I stumbled across a rather trick gauge with some really cool features and a digital display I might just be able to live with.


312234


Enter Auber Instruments multi function gauge.
They claim this gauge will accept any type thermocouple and display temps within + 1 degree C or F.
It has a cold junction compensation circuit for high accuracy, min/max temp display and a programmable alarm.
This gauge will also work with CHT sensors, Water/Oil Temp sensors, MAP sensors, and A/F sensors.
(Please note, each gauge can only be set to measure one type of parameter at a time. It can't measure multiple parameters simultaneously).
It also comes with either a Blue, Red, Green, or White display, I went with White.

I'm gonna get this piggy hooked up this weekend and see what's what and take this project from there.

On a lighter side note, more titanium has arrived ...


312235

XERO
07-08-2016, 07:01 PM
Some people would describe me as a patient person ...
Me on the other hand, I would say more along the lines of a wasp with a hangover.

To further make the case against myself, I submit the following Supplemental to EGT Action Part 4 ...

Some heavy rains moved in today and halted all outdoor activities, Mrs. XERO was out, and I had nothing else to due but mess with my RS.
Perfect time to figure out what was going on with this EGT Gauge issue.
I contacted the Seller of the Gauge and was assured it comes with a K type Thermocouple, just make sure I have probe wires correct to gauge terminals.
The Seller also recommended "bench testing" with the included thermocouple.

Bench testing it was then ...

Powered up the gauge and aimed my heat gun at the probe and waited ...
Heat gun temps (in F.) started picking up 300, 400 ...
Wait, some movement ...
(Think Creeping Death)
500, 600 ...
(Creeeeeeeep)
Hey, the little needle that could is starting to catch up ...
Heat gun stabilized around 700 degrees ...
Gauge caught up and stabilized around 650-ish (compared to Fluke Meter's readings).

OK, so the un-modified gauge works with their thermocouple.
Well sort of works, the needle takes forever to swing between temp changes.
I guess that's the difference between this "short sweep" gauge and other "full sweep" gauges I have installed.

What about my modified gauge?
Short story, the same but with a slightly closer stabilizing temp, 690-ish.

So what was up with my sensor?
Ha, Ha ... They must be using a different type ...
Right? WRONG!
My Fluke was just displaying the temp and it only reads K type.
Damn, foiled again ...
My thermocouple has Industry Standard wire colors, Yellow +, Red -
Included thermocouple, Red +, Black -

See where I going with this?

I originally hooked up my thermocouple to this gauge with the Red to + and Yellow to - ...
Ya know, just like the Red+, Black- but Yellow ...

Ahhhhhh patience indeed ...

So what's next and where is this project going from here?
Well, since I now own 2 of these analog gauges (one modified, one not) and this sleek digital one, might as well hook up the digital and see what it does.
The Auber Gauge does way cool with style.
Actually digging the white LED display and the refresh rate is on par with the Fluke, bonus ...

What's that saying, In for a penny, In for a pound ...
Yep ...
Thinking digital is the future for my RS !!!


312301

XERO
07-10-2016, 06:48 AM
I have had a little more time to mess with this Auber EGT Gauge and can say it is defiantly the way I'm going with this EGT project.
Only problem, I'm back to "square one" in regards to the look of this gauge versus the other RS gauges.
I'm gonna have to spend some time thinking about how I can get the "look" I'm after with this gauge.
In the mean time, I have copied the description from Auber's site for this gauge for anyone interested ...


Product Description:

This is a newly added product to our automotive product family. It is essentially a SYL-1813 multi-functional auto gauge but fitted in a conventional round metal case. Comparing to our 1/32 DIN sized SYL-1813 gauges, the new round appearance matches with other round gauges on the instrument panel. It is also easier to be mounted to an A-pillar pod.

This digital automobile gauge can be used to measure temperature, pressure and other important parameters, such as battery voltage and air/fuel ratio. Its bright LED display is easy to read from a distance compared to many dim LCD type digital gauges. The programmable alarm will turn on a blue LED in the front panel to get the driver's attention if the temperature/pressure is above the setting point. It will also close a relay output port that can be used to turn on a buzzer, shut off the fuel, or turn on a cooling fan. The meter stores the peak temperature/pressure with time stamps that can be checked later. It can also operate in the peak holding mode so that only the maximum value is displayed. The brightness of the LED display can be synchronized with headlight. When the headlight is turned on in the night, the display will be dimmed by the illumination signal. It can also be dimmed directly from the key pad. Developed based on industrial grade instruments, this four digits gauge offers up to 10 times the resolution and accuracy of most 3 digits gauges on the market. The gauge also includes an cold junction compensation circuit to further reduce the temperature drift when a thermocouple sensor is used. (Please note, each gauge can only be set to measure one type of parameter at a time. It can't measure multiple parameters simultaneously).

For EGT measurement, the meter will work with all EGT sensors on the market, grounded or ungrounded. There is no input impendence matching requirement. It can display the temperature in either Celsius or Fahrenheit. The temperature measurement is cold junction compensated for high accuracy. Very few EGT gauges on the market have the cold junction compensation circuit. Most of them cost several times more than this gauge.

For boost pressure measurement, the meter will work with all MAP sensors as long as its pressure/output voltage relationship is known. It can display the pressure in either Bar, PSI, or user defined units with high resolution. However, it will not display the pressure with two different types of units in one scale such as PSI for pressure range but inHg for vacuum range.

For water/oil temperature measurements, the meter can display from -199 °C to 250 °C (or -199 °F to 500 °F) with 1 degree accuracy when used with our RTD sensors. It will also work with our liquid tight thermocouple based sensors. In addition, it can work with a VDO 150 °C (300 °F) sensor with a limited display range (50-150 °C /120-300 °F). The meter can work with either old style resistive pressure sensors or the modern style pressure transducers with linear voltage output. The meter offers a regulated 5V DC output for the power supply of the pressure transducer.

For air/fuel ratio measurements, it can be used to display either air/fuel ratio or lambda when interfaced with an Innovate Motorsports' LC-1 wideband oxygen sensor controller. Please note, the meter cannot work as a standalone AFR with the oxygen sensor unless you are using a controller.

Specifications:



Input type
Temperature Sensor, K, E, S, R, J, T, B, WRe3-WRe25, Pt100, Cu50
Pressure transducer, 0-375 ohm, 0-5 V, 0-75 mV
Other transducer: 0-30 mV, 1-5 V, 0-10 V, 0-10 mA, 0-20 mA, 4-20 mA


Display
One lines, Four digits. °F or °C, Bar, PSI, or user defined


Display resolution
1°C, 1°F


Display brightness control
12 V illumination control signal, or key pad


Accuracy
±0.2% or ±1 unit of full input range


Control mode
On/Off


Control output
Relay contact: 3A at 240VAC


Alarm
Relay (3A rating) high/low alarm


Recording function
Maximum, Max time, Minimum, Min time.


Recording time
100 hrs with 1 minute resolution.


Power consumption
<2 Watt


Power supply voltage rating
12 (8.5~16.5) VDC


Panel cutout dimension
52 mm diameter (2 1/16 inch)


Dimension
60 x 60 x 59 mm




And some pictures they had with the above Product Description ...


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Wolfman$
07-10-2016, 04:37 PM
Very nice indeed!
anxious to see it in the cluster as I'm sure you are.

Rj_666
07-11-2016, 10:13 PM
Xero, with your modified gauge cluster, what're you planning to do with the indicator light cluster ?

XERO
07-13-2016, 05:58 PM
Ahhhhh yes, the indicators ...
This was almost as painful as finding a proper looking gauge.

Obviously the billboard of an Indicator Assembly had to go away to make room for a second small round gauge and I looked and looked and looked for something that would fit into the minimal space I had left, but with no luck.
I was on the edge of just making something from scratch or just fitting Plain-Jane LED's.
Wasn't really into the Plain-Jane and I had more than enough on my plate that I didn't need to go and add yet another time sucking segment to this project.
Thought I had no real choice but to make something, then about 2 months ago I was working on a gentleman's Harley and noticed this sleek little Indicator Assembly on the Dash.
While I was fixing up his messed up crap I took the opportunity to have a look-see and measured it up.
Sure enough, it was just going to be small enough to fit (with some modifications of course).


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Sourced this one off eBay and commenced with the mods ...


312685


And of course, LED's all around ...


312686


This little Indicator is going to be glued into the pocket I created in the lower section of the Gauge Cluster.
I used chunks from the one cluster to reconstruct this area and delete the Factory Indicator Assembly, giving me a clean slate to work with.
Can't wait to get this all wrapped up ...

Rj_666
07-14-2016, 10:39 PM
Nice !
Gonna be VERY sexy !

Rj_666
07-15-2016, 11:00 PM
Next up on the Mod list was ditching the forever super duper long twist OEM Throttle.
Here I employed some more great treats from Treats ...

Enter the Domino Gas Cross Throttle Assembly :

299285




Fitting this and the 21mm PHBG requires making up a new Throttle Cable to get everything to function correctly.
Add in the retained use of the Oil Injector and there is no way around remaking the Throttle Cable.
This isn't really that difficult, outside of measuring two, three times over again.



Xero, since you're running oil injection, I assume you kept the 'Y' splitter in place ?
Which cable did you decide to remake ? From throttle to 'Y', or from 'Y' to carb ?
I'm working on fitting this all up, and it looks like we pretty much MUST remake the throttle to 'Y' cable.
Do you have any photos of your install ?

Thanks !!

ToraTora
07-16-2016, 02:05 AM
Xero, since you're running oil injection, I assume you kept the 'Y' splitter in place ?
Which cable did you decide to remake ? From throttle to 'Y', or from 'Y' to carb ?
I'm working on fitting this all up, and it looks like we pretty much MUST remake the throttle to 'Y' cable.
Do you have any photos of your install ?

Thanks !!

I can field this one. If you change the throttle you change the cable to the throttle. If you change the carb you change the cable to the carb. If you change both then you will probably change both.

Although! If the carb is similar enough to the stock carb, for instance on the Derbi engines which use the PHVA and you switch out to a CP or a PHBG you may not even need to change the cable at all.

Rj_666
07-16-2016, 03:13 AM
While I appreciate the feedback, I'd REALLY like to hear from someone who has performed this upgrade on a similar bike. Thus, I asked Xero. I asked Xero specifically because his remarks appear to indicate that he has changed the 'Y' to Carb setup. At least...that is how I interpret the photo here:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=299466&d=1454628663
The end shown here is either the 'Y' end or the carb end, and is NOT the throttle end.
Further, the stock cable ( between throttle and 'Y') has a number of bendys and adjustment 'things' at the throttle end which are not really good (IMHO) for use with a RS 50 / Domino throttle. My take is that this is the end / segment that needs adjustment.

ToraTora
07-16-2016, 05:19 AM
Don't worry RJ, I'm sure Xero will post about this too. ;) Still just because I clearly prefer the Derbi to the Aprilia doesn't mean that I don't have knowledge on the subject. I have owned, wrenched, and ridden an RS50. :eek:


http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u365/derbigpr/bikes/buddys%20bikes/IMG_4812_zpsuuatkxtu.jpg

The photo you link is of the carb end. The stock cable has a noodle at the throttle for routing the cable. The Domino throttle doesn't require a noodle at the throttle because it already routes the cable in the proper direction. However, the main reason you have to change the cable going to the throttle is because the 90° Domino requires significantly more length than the stock throttle. Although you can cut off the "offending" material at that end of the stock cable. But that's a lot of work with a file/grinder/rotary tool. It's a lot easier to just get a different cable for that end of the setup.


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=299466&d=1454628663

One of the main reasons for going to one of these throttles is to be able to pull a carb like the PWK. The stock throttle wouldn't be able to fully open a PWK (at least with a comfortable action). The thing about going to a PWK is that at that point you are introducing enough fuel to overwhelm the pump, at which point you should be considering pre-mix. One of these throttles fitted to the smaller carbs though becomes rather similar to a light switch. Not nearly a bad as that, but very much in that direction. For me personally I wouldn't run this throttle the way it comes on the smaller carbs because it's just way too much throw.

Now that said there is a really cool (but kind of expensive) work around. G2 makes a throttle tube with a selection of cams (http://www.g2ergo.com/store/g2-throttle-cam-system/). I have one of these on the Wicked GPR. You could source a G2 tube and one of the smaller four stroke cams and that just might make it very nice. ;) Another option which would require some experimentation, would be to find a throttle tube with a smaller cam that is compatible with the Domino throttle. Maybe from a 50cc or 65cc KTM.


http://www.g2ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/tcspackage.jpg

XERO
07-16-2016, 07:07 AM
Rj,
I had to remake the cable from the Throttle to the Splitter and the cable from the Splitter to the Carb.
Nothing changed with the Oil Injection so I was able to reuse that section from the Splitter to the Pump.
The picture you linked to was the Carb end and it had a 70 deg. (i think) Bendy Adjuster on the end that screwed into the top of my Dellorto Carb.
I had originally made that cable with a 1.6mm cable but found it was too tight in the Bendy and remade it with a 1.2mm, so 1.2mm cable is what you will need if you are remake any of the sections.
Treats sells cables with one end on them already, I got a 1.2mm with the larger end already on it for the Throttle side and just cut to size and added the little ends on.
I think it was this one ...

http://www.treatland.tv/motobecane-decompression-cable-inner-p/mbk-decomp-cable-inner.htm
or
http://www.treatland.tv/peugeot-decompression-cable-inner-p/peugeot-decomp-cable-inner.htm

The difference being the size of the end for the Throttle, you will have to measure up and see which you need, I don't remember.

They also sell the outer cable and the thimbles for the outer cable.
I Posted a link to Flanders way back in this Thread, and that is where I sourced the little ends needed for the inner cable.

With regards to what you will have to remake, it will depend on what all you are changing out.
If you are just fitting a different Carb and still using the Factory Throttle and Oil Injection then the only section you will have to remake is the section from the Splitter to the Carb.
If you are swapping out Throttle as well then you will need to remake the section from the Throttle to the Splitter too.
If you are ditching the Oil Injection then you should delete the Splitter all together and make a new (one piece) cable from Throttle to Carb.

A worthy side note ...
The Splitter on my Factory cable was a complete bugger to get apart, but I did make a cable up for another Member (who never paid, "cough" XXXXXX) and he supplied me with a complete new Factory Throttle Cable Assembly.
The Splitter on this cable assembly was much easier to disassemble.
AP8214180
Point here is, if your still running the Factory Throttle and the Factory Oil Injection it might be worth the few extra bucks to pick up a new cable assembly to work with and replace the 15 year old one you have.

Like Tora mentioned, if you are swapping out the Throttle you should do some homework before buying.
The Domino Throttle I picked up and fitted to my RS is almost a light switch, I'm cool with the ultra quick action but a Rider with less experience may not be (like Mrs. XERO or maybe Mrs. Rj).
Tora keeps throwing out these G2 Throttle teasers (stop it Tora, they're sexy but I can't buy one just yet), they would be nice for messing around with different throttle throws to figure out what works and what doesn't for someone's particular set-up or riding style.
On that note, the larger carbs will require a longer pull of the cable to reach WOT and with the Factory Throttle this makes the throttle seem like your twisting forever which is why I went with a different one.

Another worthy side note ...
The full cable pull of a 21mm Dellorto Carb is +21mm the full cable pull of the Oil Injection Pump on the RS is +21mm.
That means that if you are fitting a carb with a longer cable pull than 21mm you will not be able to use the Oil Injection Pump.
It is super important that both the Carb and the Oil Injection Pump open fully and completely at WOT.

I don't think that you would have anything to worry about with the Oil Injection unless you are doing a "wild" and not "mild" build, but that's just my opinion and that judgement call is on you.

Spudgun60
07-16-2016, 09:22 AM
I cheated when I did mine. I just shortened the outer cable (thus making the inner cable longer).

Rj_666
07-16-2016, 01:13 PM
Thanks, guys...
Tora, no offense intended, I was merely hoping to see what's up when fitting this setup with the stock RS50 master cylinder. It looks like the photo you provided shows some type of aftermarket master, with remote reservoir. It looks like it's gonna be a bit of a cluster to do with that, due to how the throttle positions on the bar, and where I need the brake lever positioned

312909I believe I can 'get away with simply remaking the throttle - splitter section, as I have a 'straight' ( no noodle section) cable entry into the top of my carb. Future-wise, I will need to do the noodle at the carb, as I hope to fit the stock airbox back.
The reason I'm hot on this is that the 'locating pin' in the stock throttle / switchgear on my setup has broken, and no longer keeps the throttle securely in place.

One upside is that I have a new factory cable, as well as a new (different) domino splitter to work with... "all" I need is the inner n outer :)

Rj_666
07-16-2016, 01:54 PM
A.... screw it.
Ordered up a buncha cable making crap, and looked more at the stock Aprilia master cylinder.

Rather than worry my pretty little head more about it, I went ahead and ordered up the Brembo RCS 15 master from KurveyGirl.

So, the 'old' rs is down for a bit, I have to tell Mrs. RJ I'm still 'tuning' her bike I guess :).

Oh... and the bike I got from Dcrac3r is s'posed to be delivered today

Wolfman$
07-16-2016, 02:36 PM
A.... screw it.
Ordered up a buncha cable making crap, and looked more at the stock Aprilia master cylinder.

Rather than worry my pretty little head more about it, I went ahead and ordered up the Brembo RCS 15 master from KurveyGirl.

So, the 'old' rs is down for a bit, I have to tell Mrs. RJ I'm still 'tuning' her bike I guess :).

Oh... and the bike I got from Dcrac3r is s'posed to be delivered today

Nice rj, sometimes ya just gotta do it !!!
you have another set of wheels to add to the stable ?

Rj_666
07-16-2016, 03:32 PM
Yah, Wolfman...
The bike I got today is an ENORMOUS project... a bunch of detail can be found in the thread here:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?311108-2005-RS50-Hybrid-project!-New-model-parts-on-a-old-bike

The thing is likely a winter time project, as there are many decisions to be made, and a ton of work to do. That said, thee has already been an enormous amount of work done to make this uber cool ... a lot of time, energy and money has already been injected.

XERO
07-16-2016, 04:33 PM
I see what you were after now Rj ...

Even though you went and ordered up some sexy Brembo action, here's the pictures of how I did it.


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312922
312923



Ignore the zip-ties holding my EGT Gauge into the dash area, only temporary until I get my new Gauge Cluster all finished up.
Couldn't wait any longer, needed to see in in official action ...
But check out the sexy titanium fasteners !!!

I did have to drill and tap the Lower Triple for a plastic cable guide to keep the Throttle cable and others in place so not get pinched on the steering stop.
Kinked an earlier Throttle Cable there and it turned the Throttle into a "push/pull" affair ...
I am also using a Control Assembly from a ZX6R, so whatever you got might make your fitment a little different.


I have to tell Mrs. RJ I'm still 'tuning' her bike I guess
:plus:

Looking forward to seeing your new bike project unfold this winter (Dcrac3r's) ...

Rj_666
07-16-2016, 04:51 PM
Thanks, Xero.
I assume that your Domino grips came wiht the .... bump on the backside that sort of locates your hand on the grip ? That, and the relationship of the grip to the brake lever is what had me annoyed ( annoyed to the tune of ~ $300 given to KurvyGirl)
I got the switch gear from Treats, a domino part
http://www.treatland.tv/domino-starter-button-on-off-switch-p/domino-buttons-0038ab.htm

And trust me... Mrs. RJ is NOT a patient woman -

312930

XERO
07-16-2016, 05:12 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by the "bump".

I re-used the OEM Aprilia Grips, my stash of ProGrip grips were all for longer throttle tubes.
As for the relationship between everything I had a hard time adjusting to the OEM Aprilia controls, all of the buttons and such were all just slightly off of where my mind said they should be.
Meaning, missing the Turn, Horn, or Starter buttons when I went for them.
That's why I sourced out and re-wired ZX controls, (love the controls on my ZX) everything is just in the right place and no "thought" was ever necessary when I went for them.
If you are having hand placement issues, you can grind off the indexing nubs on the control assemblies and "clock" them where ever you want.
I use a layer of electrical tape on the bars to tighten the controls down against and this prevents them from rotating.
If you have a real tough control or lever that just won't stop moving you can step-up to some grip tape and that shit is as good as glued in place then.

If only Mrs. XERO was as excited as Mrs. Rj looks when I brought home my RS, correction the RS I bought for her ...
I said "I bought you something honey, and it's Italian" ...
She said "That's not a Monster" ...
Indeed ...
LOL

Rj_666
07-17-2016, 01:38 AM
Thanks for all the info, Xero...

When I bought my Domino throttle, it came with a 'Domino' grip installed on the tube, and a matching grip for the left side. These grips have ... ridges, bumps, a raised area that is on the bottom side of the grip, and hits my fingers at about the second knuckle. This actually feels pretty good for me, so I'm gonna give 'em a try. If I were to set it up the way you have yours, this 'ridge' (or whatever) would be about mid-palm for me... no bueno. So, the cable entry to the throttle (for me) needs to be on the top of the bar, and you can see what a CF that would be with the stock master cylinder.
I could do a bunch of messing about, change the grips, move em around on the tube, whatever... but the Brembo was already on the list (albeit, not 'til next payday...) so this only reschedules the plan a bit.

ToraTora
07-17-2016, 03:45 AM
Rather than worry my pretty little head more about it, I went ahead and ordered up the Brembo RCS 15 master from KurveyGirl.

The 15 will be way too much for the stock caliper. See if you can get them to switch out for the 14.

I know Matt will differ with me on this, but in this case I am confident that I am more correct than he is. The 15 even on a 4 piston caliper is a bit much. We put a 14 on MT Mike's bike with a very similar caliper and it's a tight as you'd want to go. The stock master is such a total piece of crap that almost anything will feel way better, and I think that is masking Matt's perspective. I realized this myself on my bike with the 15, and it too will benefit from the 14. But again you don't have to listen to me. :lol:

XERO
07-17-2016, 07:03 AM
Tora,
What Reservoir are you guys fitting to these Brembo Masters?
One of these is on my "list", but that's a future upgrade ...

Rj_666
07-17-2016, 10:16 AM
Thanks, Tora... apparently my fingers forgot the difference between a '4' and a '5'. I actually did order a 14.

Xero, I ordered the reservoir from the same outfit, a month or so ago, 'stockpiling' the part until I got the master....
45 ml reservoir -
https://www.kurveygirl.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=170_179&products_id=604&osCsid=k672432gf71kqph1ghueukt9v7

ToraTora
07-17-2016, 07:41 PM
The one on my bike came from an R6 when I bought an R6 master. I would suggest getting the one that RJ lists from Kurvey. ;)

RJ, Yeah I'm going to refit my bike with a 14. Probably put the 15 on the Mito someday. :P

Rj_666
07-17-2016, 10:28 PM
Kurvey is a great outfit to work with. They answered all my presales questions with a smile( well... it SOUNDED like they were smiling) and ooo'd and ahhh'd when I told 'em what I was doing.

They are responsive, and quick to ship (at least for in stock parts...)

Needless to say, I'm looking forward to this high tech sexiness.

Although Mrs. RJ wonders what I'm looking at in my browser -

ToraTora
07-20-2016, 05:21 PM
Great tech info on the CDI Spud !!!

Here's a picture of the U.S. Market CDI fitted onto my 2001 RS50:



http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=298889&d=1454272609&thumb=1


Never bothered with checking out which CDI this was versus the other Market CDI's ...
Numbers on it for anyone interested : 32395500 00 2

Hey Xero, where does the white/black wire go on your bikes? Richard's GPR came with this CDI unit--which is't the correct one for the bike, and of course the bike isn't running! :lol:

Oh and the 00 2 means that it was manufactured in February of 2000.

XERO
07-20-2016, 06:02 PM
Black w/ White goes to the "Kill Switch" and Ignition (kick stand as well if equipped).
The wire gets grounded to "shut-off" CDI, meaning it should run if you leave this disconnected.

Here's the Wiring Diagram for the RS ...


313235


Hope this helps, if not tell him to order up one of those sweet HPI Ignitions :D

P.S.
Wire colors are in Italian !!!

ToraTora
07-20-2016, 06:23 PM
Yup speaking Italian! :lol:

On the GPRs the bottom green tab is for the kill switch, and it grounds out to turn it off too.

From looking at the diagram the second green tab isn't used on the RS. Is that your experience?

Thanks much! :)

XERO
07-20-2016, 06:38 PM
There are only 3 Tabs on my CDI and a Green wire with ring terminal (for ground) and the Black w/White for the "kill".
The 3 Tabs go to the Stator / Pick-up Assembly.
A Yellow wire comes out of the Stator / Pick-up for charging.

XERO
10-07-2016, 08:58 PM
Time sure does fly when Summer comes ...

So what have I managed to accomplish in 2 1/2 months ?

Killer score on an NOS Fork set from our friends at AF1 !!!
What a sick deal this was, $179 for a complete set of Marzocchi Forks and Upper and Lower Triple Clamps !!!


318955



This acquisition will be for bringing the Front Suspension up to acceptable levels.
Our own Mattology has been leading the development in RS50 Fork upgrades, and following I am ...
Matt has pillaged the internals from the "functioning" fork tube and transplanted them into the "passive" fork tube for dual dampening on the RS.
Sweet !!!
Along with his Emulator experiments and Martin77's Pre-Load adjusters, there might just be hope for the little RS's Front End yet.
Thanks Matt !!!

Martin,
I have something else in mind for my RS, but took the idea from your Pre-Load mods.
Appreciate the idea, although I'm unsure of when I'll get any more "free time" to "invest" in yet another "project" for that "bike" ... LOL



What has been sucking-up most of my time has been a busy garage at XERO's house.
Been working on a beautiful Auto for a Gentleman, gotta pay for the motorcycle habit some how ...



318956



I almost have my new Gauge Cluster finished.
Just need to finish up a few loose ends and it will be onto final assembly and installation.
It's a shame it will be Winter here by the time I get this all wrapped up ...



318957




I have also been buying more titanium hardware for the bike, in an effort to shave some heft.
Well, not all fasteners "need" to be titanium and as such I picked up a full set of aluminum fairing bolts.
This is the corralled aftermath of a bag opening exercise ...



318958



Looks like a staged photobomb to me :D
(you know where to send the swag Pro-Bolt)



Speaking of aluminum and trick goodies, here's a preview of something going on behind the scenes at XERO's.

So this box just so happens to show up at my house, and in it is this ...



318959



Look at that, a set of Clip-Ons !!!

What the hell am I going to do with these ???

Oh wait, I know ...
But wait, what to do with the Factory Handle Bar mounts ?
And how ?!

CNC time that's how !!!



318960



It is almost unbelievable what can be done with CNC machinery.
What's even more unbelievable is the Software that generates the code.
Years ago I used to have to type out all the code, line by line by line by line ...
By line by line by line by line ...
By line by line by line by line ...
By line by line by line by line ...
By line by line by line by line ...
By line by line by line by line ...
Thousands of lines of coordinate based movements, don't miss a decimal point sucker...

This particular program was just over 13,000 lines of code and almost 2 hours worth of machine time.
(I am soooooooooo glad I don't have to type all that shit out anymore !!!)
Machined out of a solid chunk of 7075 aluminum, vastly superior to the Factory's cast aluminum Upper.



318961



I modeled the "looks" after one I had done a few years ago for my ZX.



318962



Here's a look at the perfect fit on the new Forks ...



318963


318964



So with all this trick new stuff on the way, I learned that I will be unable to use my OEM Front Master Cylinder.
Yep, no fit with the Clip-Ons.
I think I see Brembo on the horizon ...

Rj_666
10-07-2016, 09:06 PM
What a beautiful piece of CNC work !!

Do I see a 'cottage industry blossoming ?

XERO
10-07-2016, 11:05 PM
Perhaps ...
If there happens to be the right amount of persuasive interest. :cheers:

Wolfman$
10-08-2016, 09:04 PM
Hmm, interest here indeed but I know what my opinion means.

Rj_666
10-08-2016, 11:18 PM
Well... I'd be in for 2 -

mattology
10-09-2016, 05:59 AM
incredible

XERO
10-13-2016, 10:56 AM
I'll post up some more pictures as i work towards finishing it up.
Then we can see what, if any, real interest some of you might have for something like this.
Still plenty of work to do till it's ready for final review from everyone, but thanks for the interest so far.

Martin77
10-13-2016, 11:47 AM
That's proper engineering.. most if what I do is old school hacksaw and file type of work!

Wolfman$
10-20-2016, 07:04 PM
Me too!
im just now working on a nice shed / workshop.
Id love to build a small lathe.
Any chance of a ignition switch mount too ?

mattology
10-21-2016, 10:23 AM
run your ignition switch off the handlebar

i made a ghetto mount on mine and i hate it

XERO
10-21-2016, 01:57 PM
Fret not users of ignitions ...
If you look back at the pictures of the triple you will notice two threaded holes.
These are for an ignition hoop that bolts on that allows one to retain the ignition or go full race.
I was trying to think ahead, knowing that not everyone would be running a "street" setup and that the day may come when the RS gets turned into a "track" toy.
And of course, machining the whole triple and ignition hoop in one piece would require a much larger chunk of aluminum.
That chunk of 7075 i machined this one out of wasn't cheap to start with and adding an extra 2" in width and 1" in thickness really pushed the price to the stratosphere !!!

Wolfman$
10-22-2016, 11:33 AM
Thank you XERO for looking out for us.
I saw your switch Matt, I think it looks fine and most likely works as you intended.
Might be tough to get to in an oh shit moment though.
The keyed ignition switch is clunky but needed for those who use our RS for runs to the village.
Not that anyone would try to pinch it but just in case.
didnt Tora have one pinched and recovered ?

mattology
10-22-2016, 12:47 PM
my start stop switch is on a handlebar, only the dash switch is on the triple

Martin77
10-22-2016, 02:47 PM
I got one of these cheap Chinese switches for two of my bikes, just needs a back plate making from 3mm aluminium, but it's small enough to be mounted in odd places.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-Wires-Ignition-Key-Switch-Lock-For-motor-Pocket-Bikes-Go-Karts-Dirt-Bike-BF-/371677168027?hash=item5689af819b:g:JpEAAOSwXeJXfzu a


(http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-Wires-Ignition-Key-Switch-Lock-For-motor-Pocket-Bikes-Go-Karts-Dirt-Bike-BF-/371677168027?hash=item5689af819b:g:JpEAAOSwXeJXfzu a)

Wolfman$
10-22-2016, 05:12 PM
Ah, thanks for clarifying Matt
Makes sense Martin, small is good.

XERO
11-28-2016, 06:06 PM
The Holiday last week brought with it some free time to my schedule.
Add in an empty machine at Work, and so much for that free time ...

I managed to get my Triple Clamp decked into size and trimmed up.
This got me to the point where I can finally verify clearances for the "bolt-on" Ignition Hoop.
Everything fits and looks awesome, measure twice, cut once ...

Here is a comparison picture of the Factory underside and mine.


322248


Here is a shot of it fitted to the Bike.


322250


I still have a little more work to do to give it those final finishing touches before I call it done and send it out to be Anodized.
The biggest is getting time to machine the Ignition Hoop.
I'm at least thankful I got some time to get this project moving again ...

Rj_666
11-28-2016, 07:06 PM
Beautiful, and thoughtful work, Xero !

mattology
11-28-2016, 07:10 PM
absolutely beautiful.

i've been so busy with the new house and getting moved that the only thing i've been able to do is get all the bikes back on the battery tender...

freedomgli
11-29-2016, 09:05 AM
Fascinating project. Makes me want to pick up a second RS50 that I can fiddle with more. Once you start doing aftermarket master cylinder, throttle, etc. then it's just easier to chuck all the factory stuff and go full on race hardware.

XERO
12-11-2016, 01:10 PM
With the whole EGT Gauge mess well behind me, I have been slowly working on getting everything wrapped up.
After getting my new Gauge Cluster all finished up it was time to address how I was going to deal with the mix-matched look of this Auber Gauge vs. the Factory ones.

Here is a picture of the finished Gauge Cluster with the Auber EGT Gauge in place.


322973


I didn't really care for how this looked and think I would have been better off aesthetically with the analog EGT Gauge I did first.
Unfortunately the analog gauge didn't really cut it in terms of actually being a useful gauge.
Since the purpose of fitting the EGT Gauge in the first place was for accurate exhaust temps with near instant readings, it meant that form had to follow function.


322974



So with the Auber Gauge taking care of function it was on to form.
I figured the only way I was going to make this gauge fit in with the Factory Gauges was to make it look like it could be a "Factory" gauge.
It took a little hunting and a few failed attempts, but I finally found a vinyl shop that was able to make me just what I wanted ...


322975


Not too far off from what could be considered a "Factory" gauge, if Aprilia would have actually made a digital EGT Gauge that is.
As you can tell, I knew I couldn't live with the mix-matched look of the EGT and Water Temp gauges so I had them make me one for a matching Water Temp Gauge.
Here's where I decided to cut my losses and ordered up another Auber Gauge to set-up as a Water Temp Gauge.
We all know how useless the H2O Gauge is on the RS, so why bother keeping?


322976


Switching over to the Auber Gauge for water temp meant that I had to adapt one of their precision Temp Probes to the RS's cylinder head.
The sensor for the Auber Gauge has a 1/8 NPT thread and the OEM Aprilia sensor is a 14 x 1.25 thread with a sealing washer like that found on a spark plug.
I found an aluminum 6AN to 14 x 1.25 fitting on eBay and machined off the 6AN end and drilled and tapped it for the 1/8 NPT I needed.
Instant adapter ...


322977


Now that I finally have all the pieces done, this will wrap up the epic saga of my EGT Action posts.
All that is left is to do is the final installation of the completed Gauge Cluster and install the new Water Temp senor, oh and wait for spring.
Knew I wasn't going to get this all finished up before winter set in here ...

Spudgun60
12-11-2016, 01:57 PM
Pyrometer. There's a device I've not seen for a while. I had one on my Norton rotary. Glad you ditched it. They're not very good (mine was a pain in the ass to keep going).

ToraTora
12-11-2016, 06:47 PM
This bike will be worth the extra time you've put into it Xero. Beautiful work.

mihal
12-11-2016, 11:33 PM
Nice work!

XERO
12-12-2016, 02:16 PM
Thanks guys !!!
Got lots more trick stuff on the way ...
Just need more time.
Hopefully i can get to the engine side of my build this winter.
This is the one I'm really looking forward to.

scottydog
12-12-2016, 07:50 PM
nice!

Martin77
12-13-2016, 05:36 AM
Those dials look awesome, very neat job like all your stuff!

Bike1
01-16-2017, 05:53 PM
Hello I'm interested in ur cdi for my rs50 how much are u asking for it?

XERO
01-16-2017, 08:20 PM
Currently I am not selling any of the "spares" I have for my RS.
Aftermarket CDI units are readily available from numerous Companies.
As are most OEM parts for the RS through Aprilia Dealers.

XERO
01-17-2017, 09:13 PM
Gentlemen,

I would like (for a moment) to derail my own "Project Thread" with an open discussion regarding FRICTION.

I have had the opportunity over the years to read countless White Papers pertaining to this ever persistent foe.
I have also had the opportunity of "hands-on" implementation of quite a few exotic type materials to fight said foe.
I also have access to some "crazy shit" and more ...
With that established, lets talk about what "gains" we honestly think there could be had for an obscene reduction in the internal frictions associated with our little engines?

Where do you think the biggest reduction could be had, the transmission, the reciprocating assembly ???
Maybe not the internals, perhaps the final drive, or wheel bearings etc. ???
Where wouldn't you want "super-slick" and why ???
I'm asking for your opinions ...

Disclaimer:
I do have an agenda surrounding this topic.
More on that later ... Much More ...
**Evil Laugh**

mattology
01-17-2017, 09:51 PM
transmission
clutch windage
piston skirt

XERO
01-18-2017, 06:11 PM
Matt,

When you say "clutch windage" are you talking about viscous drag?
Meaning the friction imposed from the Clutch churning through the oil below or something else?

Piston Skirt, worried about a little rub are you?

What are your thoughts on those Moly coated skirts?
Something along those lines sure would buffer any contact that might take place and prevent a hard core seize.
Although, all that may really do is prevent smearing your piston on your cylinder.
Wouldn't stop a ring from digging in if there was a sudden breakdown of lubricating fluids on your cylinder wall.
What if you could put something like Moly or Teflon on your piston, rings, and cylinder?
Shit load of friction there ...

mattology
01-22-2017, 02:08 PM
WPC treating the piston skirts seems to be the best, and it's cheap enough that i just do it. i might try the rings too on the next rebuild. i will be WPC'ing my full 250.

yes that's exactly what i mean by clutch windage :thumbs up:

Spudgun60
01-22-2017, 02:28 PM
I'll throw a couple in (for a bit of fun).

Number of piston rings (2 having more surface friction than 1)
Surface finish of the cylinder bore (Is chrome more smooth than bare iron?).

XERO
01-23-2017, 07:13 PM
Digging the input guys ...

WPC (micro shot peening), I have never tried it myself.
From the info I have read on it, it sounds like it's main benefits are in-line with REM finishing.
Making a smoother surface finish for reduced friction.
The improvements in surface hardness are more inline with "standard" shot peening, and a benefit I don't think REM gives.
I also like the application process of WPC more than REM.
I think there could be possible damage to more "fragile" parts when tossed in the vibratory tumbler with other larger chunks.

One question I don't have an answer to regarding WPC is if there is any of their "secret ingredient" embedded into the part?

Like most of these "treatments", the Companies are less than forth-coming on what they are actually using.
I haven't found squat on what is really in the REM process or WPC.
For all I know it's stale cocaine ...

I have heard lots of different views on the whole 1 vs. 2 ring thing.
Here's my opinion :
For a "race" engine that gets stripped regularly, 1.
For a "street" engine with fat, old, lazy owners, 2.

I do agree, that there is a lot less friction with 1 ring.
My hang-up is with longevity, that means I fall in the "street" engine category.
When I was younger and had nothing better to do than toss an engine on my kitchen table on a Tuesday evening, 1 ring was just fine.
Today, Mrs. XERO would shoot me with my own gun, then her's, twice.
(Words of Wisdom, don't buy your Wife a gun, it will only ever be used against you.)

Surface finish of the bore, now that's an interesting thought.
The "popular opinion" is that there must be a "cross-hatch" pattern honed into your bore and this is done for lube and proper bedding of the rings.
If our cylinder walls were glass smooth your rings would wipe away any traces of fuel and oil (2 or 4 stroke) and we would be left with nothing but bare metal casings,worn rings, and lots of seized pistons.
Think about a squeegee on wet glass vs. a squeegee on wet plywood.
Fact is, we need that Boundary Layer present to keep all those bad things from happening, metal on metal is bad news.
I never bought into the whole "chrome lined" bores and personally don't think they offer any more than greater wear resistance.
Bare Iron and even Nikasil plated bores are honed, so there must be something to needing a slight amount of surface imperfections to help retain that boundary layer.

So it seems that we have no choice but to accept viscus drag, the question is how do we manage it?
Smoother surface finish, lower viscosity lubes, maybe less lube?

ToraTora
01-23-2017, 11:30 PM
I have heard lots of different views on the whole 1 vs. 2 ring thing.
Here's my opinion :
For a "race" engine that gets stripped regularly, 1.
For a "street" engine with fat, old, lazy owners, 2.

I do agree, that there is a lot less friction with 1 ring.
My hang-up is with longevity, that means I fall in the "street" engine category.
When I was younger and had nothing better to do than toss an engine on my kitchen table on a Tuesday evening, 1 ring was just fine.

Riddle me this: If there is more friction, which must create more wear, then how is that less likely to wear out?

XERO
01-24-2017, 08:19 PM
Riddle me this: If there is more friction, which must create more wear, then how is that less likely to wear out?

Friction and Wear are two completely different things and can't be looked at as directly proportional to each other.
Meaning that when we talk about an engine, we are given "specs" to set all the various tolerances against.
Piston Clearance, End Play (shafts, etc.), Ring End Gap, Chain Slack, Bearing Pre-load, Suspension Sag, Valve Lash, ...............
These "ranges" of acceptable tolerances split the difference between too tight and too loose, and in theory give us the best possible compromise between performance and perseverance.

Too TIGHT of "clearances" will almost always result in excessive wear due to direct "metal to metal" contact and have a higher level of friction associated with that particular assembly.
Too LOOSE, and you will have less friction, but higher wear due to slop in the assembly.
Think about our chains ...
If I were to pull that wheel back to tighten the chain to the point of NO slack, there would be a lot more rotational friction (resistance) and the chain would dig on in and wear out our sprockets in a flash.
If I were to give some EXTRA slack to the chain I would experience less friction (resistance) during rotation, but the chain would flop about and whittle our sprocket down just as quick.
More friction, less friction, wear none the less.
The same can be said for almost every point of power/motion transfer.

Speaking more specifically about Piston Ring(s) ...
Most pistons equipped with 2+ rings are done so for the sole purpose of longevity.
A piston with multiple rings will be more stable in the bore than a piston with only one ring.
Thrust forces imposed upon the piston are inevitable, the piston will always rock within the cylinder.
With a single ring piston there will be a larger degree of movement due to the smaller amount of "supported" surface area.
Yes, there will be less total friction, but Skirt contact/wear is higher.
Single ring pistons are typically set-up with tighter Piston Clearances and tighter Ring End Gaps.
Tighter clearances mean more friction.
(This is done to minimize blow-by and compression loss)
A single ring piston will almost always produce lower power figures at less than high RPM's.
(A ring's sealing capability against the bore is not due to it's radial tension, but pressure behind the ring)
Ask any real "Engine Builder" and they will tell you a single ring will wear faster than a multi-ring set-up, requiring more frequent service.
And we haven't even touched the topic of what kind of ring(s) we are talking about ...

Like I said, I am in the "street" category, I would rather build a build and sit back and enjoy it then constantly chase my tail with maintenance.
I, personally, don't have the time for it.


(for a bit of fun)
:plus:

Spudgun60
01-25-2017, 04:37 PM
Here's another. Knife edged con rod (Gets discussed a lot as regards old Brit iron). Is a 'knife edged' rod (Oval in section) better than the traditional H shaped?

mattology
01-25-2017, 08:02 PM
if wet sumped and not losing strength, yes

XERO
01-26-2017, 06:51 PM
Matt nailed it.
Those "knife edge" con-rods are for engines with oil down below.
Intended to lessen the resistance as it churns through the sump.
Little use to those of us with 2T Engines.

Another one of those things that doesn't really apply to our little engines is "pumping loss".
This is an inherent problem with 4 Stroke engines, where the piston's movement within the bore is actually compressing the air trapped within the block on it's downward stroke and then trying to stretch it back on it's upward movement (or suck air in though a small breather hole).
This is why 4 Strokes have Crank Case Breathers.
This "pumping" action tends to rob some h.p. as the breather is not capable of keeping up with the engine RPMs.
For the most part, this gets sort-of balanced out in multi-cylinder engines, but can become a big loss in "Thumper" engines.

Here's a nice example ...
On one of my other bikes, there was an Emissions Air Pump that took fresh air from the AirBox and introduced it into the exhaust just on the outside of the exhaust valves.
This was kept in check by a reed valve for each cylinder (4 cyl.).
I tossed everything except the reed valves and re-plumbed them to the crank case vent port.
(The original crank case venting went into the AirBox)
This configuration actually generated a vacuum within my crank case while the engine was running.
What's the point?
3 h.p.
This was verified by connecting and disconnecting it during consecutive dyno runs, multiple times.
Every time the system was hooked up, there would be a gain in power that started around 6k and plateaued by 9k with a solid 3 h.p. gain till 14.5k where the rev limiter shut everything down.
Disconnect it, and the little bump-up disappeared.

Now you might ask, "how do you know it generated a vacuum?"
When doing some bottom end work, I got a new Oil Pan gasket and it came folded in the box and had a crease in it.
There was always this tiny little drip of oil from the one crease.
After the above mod, whenever I would shut-off my bike there would be this gurgling sound (think bong) from the area where the little drip was.
It was sucking air in through the leak, vacuum in the crank case.

Enough 4 Stroke garbage.
To smoke or not to smoke, that is the real question ...
But more over, the point of the above is to state that there is power to be had if found.
It might not be big, but a bunch of little starts to add up.
Start stripping away all those little nuisances and we all might just be really surprised at what can be gained, that's the point for this whole "What a Drag" conversation.
Thanks for everyone's contributions, keep them coming ...

ToraTora
01-27-2017, 02:26 AM
I'm lacking the time so i have to be short.

I think this is a case of correlation, not causation. Most kits running one ring tend to be performance kits so they would of course they see more stress, and that stress is liking the cause of issues not what you listed. Those would rear their heads with the larger pistons, but much less so with the smaller pistons. Think about it for a while, and it should become clear. ;)

mattology
01-27-2017, 06:27 AM
two rings are way more reliable in every application

scottydog
01-27-2017, 10:56 AM
I used to work on large slow speed diesels which ran 8 rings! Was 5 compression rings with 3 scraper. I kinda vaguely remember latterly we would run with one or two less rings, but that was 20 years ago so might be wrong.

Spudgun60
01-29-2017, 06:13 AM
Here's another. Straight cut gears verses helicut gears.

mattology
01-29-2017, 11:38 AM
helical hears are less noise but more axial force on the transmission cases

straight cut are noisier but more force transferred to the gear instead of axially down the shaft

XERO
01-30-2017, 06:16 PM
Matt's on it ...

Hey Matt, how are you with dealing with wives?
I am constantly doing stupid things that need explaining.
LOL

mattology
01-30-2017, 07:20 PM
women are crazy. find one you see as a teammate that you also want to sleep with... dunno what else to say lol

paperboy
02-01-2017, 06:49 PM
women for winter only!!!!

stevieboy22
02-01-2017, 08:39 PM
My wife used to ride. Got her started while we were dating. Now every second and cent spent on motorcycles is a waste. Oh but the no sex for the last fifteen years makes up for it. What a sorry state!

XERO
02-02-2017, 06:31 PM
women are crazy. find one you see as a teammate that you also want to sleep with... dunno what else to say lol

That right there boys, is the best advise you'll ever get.

Mrs. XERO knew long before we ever even started dating what she was in for.
When we first met almost 30 years ago, my only worldly possession was a motorcycle.
Fast forward some odd years when she decided to move in and the young-ling came along ...
There was a drastic "behavioral reconditioning" and a "re-association of assets".

That's a Bath Tub, not a wet sanding booth.
This is where we eat dinner, not rebuild engines.
It's a Kitchen Sink, not a Parts Washer.
A motorcycle in the Living Room does not count as furniture.
The Oven if for cooking food, not Powder Coat.
Dawn and a Dish Scrubby are not proper bathing supplies.
etc ............
Thinking back at it, about the only things I had right were the toilet, coffee pot, and microwave.

Mrs. XERO has endured half dozen or so motorcycle accidents, countless dollars spent, and ridiculous amounts of wasted time.
She still to this day, affectionately refers to my bikes as the "other woman".
Mrs. XERO is truly the best.
I honestly couldn't ask for anything more.

...except maybe another bike LOL !!!!!!!!!

XERO
02-19-2017, 01:12 PM
Figured I add this here as well ...

Disclaimer :
I am typically tanked or hung-over when I add to this list.
As such, XERO is NOT responsible for typographical / sizing errors.
Double check before you go buying expensive hardware.


Water Pump
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 25mm Coolant Drain 12mm Head Dia.
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 25mm Allen Socket Head
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 12mm Allen Socket Head

Oil Injector Pump
2 ~ 5 x .8 x 35mm Allen Socket Head
2 ~ 5 x .8 x 16mm Allen Socket Head

Clutch Cover
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 8mm Oil Level 12mm Head Dia.
7 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 30mm Allen Socket Head
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 55mm Allen Socket Head

Flywheel & Cover
5 ~ 5 x .8 x 20mm Allen Socket Head
1 ~ 5 x .8 x 12mm Allen Socket Head
3 ~ 4 x .7 x 10mm Stator Allen Button Head

Crankcase
13 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 40mm Allen Socket Head
1 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 10mm Oil Drain 15mm Head Dia.

Front Sub Frame
3 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 100mm Motor Mount Bolts
4 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 35mm Sub Frame Bolts
5 ~ 8 x 1.25 Nylock Nuts w/ Flange

Sprocket Cover
2 ~ 5 x .8 x 20mm Allen Socket Head

Rear Sprocket
5 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 20mm Hex Head w/ Flange

Rear Brake / Caliper / Rotor
2 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 20mm Hex Head w/ Flange
5 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 25mm Flat Head
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 20mm Master Cylinder Allen Button Head
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 16mm Reservoir Allen Button Head
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 Nylock Nuts w/ Flange
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 Nylock Nuts w/o Flange

Rear Sets
4 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 30mm Hex Head w/ Flange
4 ~ 8 x 1.25 Nylock Nuts w/o Flange

Front Brake / Caliper / Rotor
2 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 30mm Hex Head w/ Flange
5 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 20mm Allen Button Head
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 25mm Master Cylinder Allen Socket Head

Rear Sub Frame
2 ~ 10 x 1.25 x 35mm Hex Head w/ Flange
2 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 25mm Hex Head w/ Flange
2 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 20mm Hex Head w/ Flange
2 ~ 8 x 1.25 Nylock Nuts w/o Flange

Gauge Cluster
3 ~ 5 x .8 Nylock Nuts w/ Flange
5 ~ 4 x .7 Nylock Nuts w/ Flange
3 ~ 5 x 18mm Washer
5 ~ 4 x 16mm Washer

Rad Brackets
3 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 12mm Hex Head
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 35mm Regulator Hex Head
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 16mm Hex Head
1 ~ 5 x .8 Horn Nylock Nut w/ Flange
1 ~ 5 x 16mm Washer

Starter
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 25mm Allen Socket Head
1 ~ 5 x .8 x 20mm Allen Socket Head
1 ~ 5 x .8 x 12mm Allen Socket Head
3 ~ 4 x .7 x 35mm Allen Socket Head
2 ~ 4 x .7 x 12mm Allen Socket Head

Reed Cage
4 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 24mm Allen Socket Head

Forks
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 30mm Allen Socket Head
2 ~ 5 x .8 x 16mm Fork Caps Allen Socket Head

Upper Frame
7 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 50mm Hex Head w/ Flange
7 ~ 8 x 1.25 Nylock Nuts w/ Flange
4 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 16mm Fairing Stay Brackets Hex Head

Front Fender
4 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 16mm Allen Button Head
4 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 12mm Allen Button Head
4 ~ 6 x 1.0 Nylock Nuts w/o Flange

Upper Fairing
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 30mm Hex Head w/ Flange
4 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 16mm Mirrors Allen Button Head
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 Nylock Nuts w/ Flange

Rear Shock
2 ~ 10 x 1.25 x 65mm Hex Head w/ Flange
2 ~ 10 x 1.25 Nylock Nuts w/ Flange

Clutch
4 ~ 5 x .8 x 20mm Allen Button Head
4 ~ 5 x 15mm Washer
1 ~ 14 x 1.25 Pressure Plate Nut

Tank
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 30mm Tank Bracket Hex Head
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 70mm Tank Pivot Hex Head
5 ~ 4 x .7 x 10mm Gas Cap Allen Socket Head
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 12mm Gas Cap Allen Button Head
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 12mm Fuel Cock Allen Button Head
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 15mm Tank Cover Allen Button Head
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 50mm Allen Socket Head
5 ~ 6 x 1.0 Nylock Nuts w/ Flange

Triple Clamp
6 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 25mm Allen Socket Head
1 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 12mm Brake Line Clamp Allen Button Head
2 ~ 10 x 1.25 x 60mm Handle Bars Allen Socket Head
2 ~ 6 x 1.0 x 35mm Bar Ends Allen Socket Head
2 ~ 8 x 1.25 x 16mm Ignition Allen Socket Head

Bankofdad
02-22-2017, 03:17 PM
She still to this day, affectionately refers to my bikes as the "other woman".


Same here.

She has caught me with engine cases in the oven. Gearbox/crank assemblies in the dishwasher. I turned the kitchen pink spraying an old Suzuki red without making sure the kitchen door was shut properly. Ruined several carpets (now have wooden flooring throughout downstairs).

We are a team, totally. Although she may be the team leader.....:worship:

mattology
02-24-2017, 01:45 PM
i managed to get one of my bikes upstairs next to my bedroom...

XERO
02-27-2017, 06:42 PM
Gearbox/crank assemblies in the dishwasher
That's hardcore !!!
No way Mrs. XERO would ever let that fly, lucky for me, I didn't have a dishwasher back then.


i managed to get one of my bikes upstairs next to my bedroom...
My apartment of 15yrs. was on the second floor.
The YSRs weren't a big deal to get up or down, but the bigger bikes became a chore.
I currently have my ZX6 and Bike Lift in our basement, we have no exterior access to the basement either.
You should see the look on people's faces when they see them down there.
Narrow, steep steps with only a 3' landing at the bottom.
Everyone asks how?
My reply is always the same ...
The bike was easy, the lift on the other hand, sucked !!!
The guys that helped me move them down have said they wouldn't help bring them back up.
Gotta find new suckers for the removal.
LOL

XERO
05-22-2017, 05:42 PM
Not a lot has been happening with my RS lately.
Although some goodies have been arriving ...

First up, HPI Ignition for a future episode.


333402


Complete with all the "bells and whistles", Dual Timing Curves and Tach Output.
For now, this will sit in it's box and wait ...

Next up, new chain, sprocket, rubbers, and wheel bearings.


333403


Obviously there are no rubbers in the picture, got them mounted already.
Had ordered up some SAVAs from Treats, can't wait to try them out !!!
GOOD BYE scary Pirelli's !!!
Check out the new rear sprocket from the good folks at Sprocket Specialists.
And some trick new ceramic wheel bearings, complete with WS2 coating !!!

Other then the parts pile getting bigger, the only other thing I managed is to get started on are my ultra sexy titanium axles.
Hope to get some machine time here soon to finish the heads.


333404


Currently my RS is up on stands and patiently waiting.
I have at least ran the motor and kicked the tires, put 3 miles on the ODO ... LOL

stevieboy22
05-22-2017, 07:10 PM
We had six guys with six bikes in our basement thirty years ago. Nobodies bike got out unless everybody's bike got out!

mattology
05-22-2017, 09:02 PM
how much for another set of titanium axles

Rj_666
05-22-2017, 09:06 PM
And when you get around to production... I'm in for 2 sets

ToraTora
05-22-2017, 11:56 PM
Having time to wrench is a luxury. ;)

XERO
05-23-2017, 05:52 PM
Thanks for all the interest guys !!!
If I ever get the chance to make more than one of any of this I will let you know for sure.
My biggest problem currently is having the time to work on my own shit.
This year has been non stop with work and side work ...

Got that '32 wrapped up earlier and it's back to the Painter's Shop to finish the doors and such.


333483


The weekend after the '32 left I took on the next project, 1974 Dodge Challenger.
This poor car turned out to be a "basket case" and has consumed way more time then I had allotted.
Not to mention I had to rent some garage space at a friends Shop, 40 minutes away.
Turns out the garage I built for my motorcycles is big enough for motorcycles and small autos, not muscle cars ...


333484


Should have the Challenger finished up this weekend and then it's on to the next project.


333485


Factory Five GTM Kit Car !!!
This thing is sleek and way low.
Thankfully this is a small job and not another calendar killer.
Doing some carbon fiber work and some other random crap before it goes for paint.

My next large job has been pushed off till maybe August, 1000 hp Chevelle !!!!!!!!!!
Unfortunately I'm gonna have to rent out some space for that one too.
Should have built a bigger garage ...


Having time to wrench is a luxury. ;)

Don't I know it ...

ToraTora
05-23-2017, 10:43 PM
There are only two rules in life. You can always eat another slice of pizza, and the garage is never big enough. :eek:

asechrest
05-24-2017, 10:43 PM
Bought my first house last year. Nice, two car garage. Cool, plenty of space, I thought.

Now holds a 2 stroke jet ski, 2 stroke project GPR, hand-built workbench, yard equipment, and boxes upon boxes of junk. Considering a bonfire for the boxes of junk....so that I can acquire more 2 stroke things! :lol:

Rj_666
05-25-2017, 10:46 AM
There are only two rules in life. You can always eat another slice of pizza, and the garage is never big enough. :eek:

Amen to that

mattology
05-25-2017, 02:11 PM
i am flying home for my summer sabbatical, and i can say this... i have tons of crap to move around to get my garages back also!!

XERO
05-26-2017, 10:19 PM
I say that those of us that are unable to make it to GPR Camp should dedicate that time to making room in our garages for more 2 Stroke ...

My Niece, patiently waiting for me to give her the RS's key ...


333728


My Niece, wondering why the Polini is still on the Rear Stand ...


333729


Hope for Mrs. Xero and Young-ling is dismal ...
Niece, probable ...

ToraTora
05-30-2017, 11:32 AM
That's great. You can use MTB levers on pocket bikes to get them to fit the little hands.

Denee007
06-02-2017, 12:39 PM
Adorable! ;)

XERO
06-03-2017, 04:23 PM
Managed to get some "machine time" this week.
Axles are done, new wheel spacers are up next.
Almost there ...


334404


These things are soooooooooooooooooo light.
The new titanium Front and Rear Axles combined weigh less then just the Factory Rear Axle alone.
43% drop in weight each.
Front 8.40 oz. ~ 4.75 oz.
Rear 11.75 oz. ~ 6.80 oz.

Rj_666
06-03-2017, 09:39 PM
That is some SEXY stuff, Xero !!

Denee007
06-04-2017, 08:52 AM
Are you a machinist? you can make these kind of parts at home? very nice parts!!

XERO
06-04-2017, 11:37 AM
I would not consider myself a Machinist.
This is only because I do it (day job) to pay the bills, and I can.
I personally have no real interest in making a Career out of it, enduring it for the short term to put the young-ling through College.

Currently I work at a CNC Machine Shop.
I wish I had machinery like this at home.
I do have access to the equipment to use as I wish, so long as it's not set-up for a job.
Typically when we have a "down" machine I don't have the time, and when I have the time the machines are tied up.
Go figure ...

That is why it takes so long to get these little parts finished, and to get to starting all the others.
I got some really trick parts in the line-up for my RS, just need my time to jive with the machine availability :bangwall: ...

mattology
06-04-2017, 04:04 PM
my dad has availability, but he's getting up there in age, and likes to take his time and charge for it... so if someone truly wants a titanium axle set or something, my dad would gladly make one, hell, he made us the emulator adaptors as well as the preload adjusters, but for sure, if someone else is already tooled up and jigged up, i think it makes more sense to go in that direction...

XERO
06-04-2017, 07:01 PM
I will gladly share any and all numbers, files, etc. with anyone that genuinely wants and has the means.
Nothing Top Secret here, PM me with any inquiries.
I would also be willing to provide CAD drawings for someone's custom part.
If I had the time I would make them as well, but no such luck for you or me currently ...

Rj_666
06-04-2017, 08:21 PM
From ONLY a cost perspective, I've had some discussion with these guys: http://racetechtitanium.com.
He says $350 - $400 per axle (includes materials), and about 3 weeks out.

XERO
07-04-2017, 10:49 AM
Some more pieces of the RS puzzle have arrived ...


336760


Galfer Front Rotor
Ferodo Platinum Pads Front & Rear
eBay "special" Rear Rotor

Called Galfer and was told they didn't make a matching rear rotor for the RS, found this one on eBay that looks close enough.
Not sure of the quality of it, guess I'll find out.

Still working towards the Brembo RCS Master ...

XERO
07-04-2017, 11:41 AM
Awhile back I had started a conversation regarding drag, well this is the beginning of where I was going with all that ...

(There was a lot of good feedback from fellow members, thanks everyone !!!)

I had been looking for better bearings for my RS and stumbled across MicroBlue.
They make top shelf ceramic bearings and then go even further and coat them with an ultra low friction material.
Reading through their claims and services had me very curious and skeptical all at once.
I contacted them and the gentleman was very helpful and answered almost all of my questions.
But as you can guess, he wasn't offering up what their coating was.
For the low cost of $600 I could send them my entire Transmission and Cylinder/Piston/Crank to be coated with their product.
I opted to just purchase a full complement of their bearings for my RS.

This is where the difference between “pipe dreams” and “reality”gets a little fuzzy …

After spending a fair amount of time researching MicroBlue I got the breadcrumb I was looking for on YouTube. Some guy at a Tractor Pull was demonstrating the advantages of the MicroBlue product / coating and spilled the beans …
The“Secret Ingredient” had been revealed, and it wasn't Snake Oil Mr. Stanley!!!

Tungsten Disulfide

Turns out, this coating is the real deal. Developed for NASA in the 50's to be used as a permanent dry lubricant in the harshest of environments. It was first introduced for the Mariner Missions of the 60's. And yes,it is perfectly suited for coating almost everything inside an engine and works even better when used with liquid lubricants. From all the research I've done on this coating it appears that MicroBlue's claims were indeed very accurate. If anyone hasn't yet, check out their website and give it a good read.

Feeling like a junkie with 20 bucks and a dirty needle, I had to have it !!!
What better platform to strip away the constant drag of friction than this pint sized engine?
Think about it, the average motorcycle has more than enough power to push past and experience only minimal losses due to the sum of all the associated internal frictions. But the AM6 on the other hand is under powered at best and yet suffers from an almost equal amount of internal frictional losses. And lets not forget that the piston and crank are lubricated solely from what amounts to just a spit of lube.

As much as I wanted this for my engine I still couldn't justify the cost. Now I was, feeling like a junkie with no money ...

With some more internet digging I finally found a Supplier in Canada that sells the stuff (although not cheap).
Next up was the application of the material.
This stuff needs to be "blasted" onto the surface of the parent material, not the kind of thing you'll want to do in the house.
And with the price tag of the stuff it would be best to be able to "re-claim" what doesn't get deposited onto the part.
For this I chose a cheap portable sandblasting cabinet and began retrofitting it with what I thought would work.
Here are some pictures of the finished enclosure prior to being used ...


336763

336766

336767


I purchased this small Paasche sandblaster and some chemical gloves that offered better dexterity then the gloves that came with the cabinet.
Added in the coiled air line and swivel fitting to also help with movement.


336768


And here's the stuff ...


336769


So, how does it work ???
More on that in Part 2 ...

ToraTora
07-04-2017, 12:22 PM
It's great when you activate!

mattology
07-04-2017, 01:47 PM
if you would like to recoup some cost and spray some additional parts for you know who...

Rj_666
07-04-2017, 03:27 PM
Or a couple of you know whos...
I have a brand new top pink kit that could benefit....

XERO
07-09-2017, 08:24 AM
Here's some more tech on this coating before I get into how the application went.

Unlike other low friction coatings, Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) does not require any type of binder or baking to adhere it to the parent material.
As I noted in the last Post, it is "blasted" onto the surface at around 120 psi. and a "claimed" atomic bond is formed between the WS2 particles and the surface material.
Because of this it can be applied to almost any man made solid (metals, plastics, o-rings, seals, etc.) and there is no possibility of chipping or flaking off.

Another very interesting characteristic of this WS2 is that it does not stick to itself, meaning that there is no possibility of the coating "building up" on the surface.
Other coatings like Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2​ or Moly) and Teflon (PTFE) can build up on the surface and that extra thickness must be taken into consideration with assemblies.
Applying Moly to a uniform thickness is almost impossible without some really trick equipment, I can't tell you how many times I've had to buff down Moly coated parts to obtain a uniform thickness within a +.002" -.000" tolerance.
Huge pain in the ass !!!
Teflon coated parts can be re-machined to obtain a specific dimension, but care must be taken if the coating isn't thick enough as Teflon likes to peel away from the surface.

Regarding coating thickness, this is where WS2 really separates itself from all the other materials, as noted WS2 does not stick to itself so you will always get the same ideal coating thickness every time.
How thick is it?
0.5 micron (.00002") Yes, that is all it is !!!
This is great because no adjustments need to be done for assembly of coated parts.
It also opens up another realm of possible items to be coated, low friction piston rings anyone ?!?!
Shaft seals, thrust washers, snap rings, needle bearings, bushings, wrist pins, etc. !!!

OK, so here is how it has went for me so far ...

I found out very quickly that I need to work on my delivery method.
The small Paasche sandblaster was the way to go, but the nozzle is way too big for such a fine powder like this material.
Basically it came out in such a high volume that the cabinet instantly went dark and the application had to be done blind.
Here though is where the extra dexterity of my modifications paid off.
The tight fitting chemical gloves allowed me to feel what I was doing and the coiled hose / swivel for the gun offered superb movement within the cabinet.
All and all it wasn't a complete failure nor a complete success, for version 1.0 I'm rather pleased with the results.

I figured I would start with some simple parts that could be readily monitored, my Final Drive.
First up was some Front Sprockets, I took some time and polished the teeth prior to coating.
Here's some pictures of my first coated parts ...


337047


Top sprocket is a "raw" one, left is one that has only been polished, right is a polished & coated sprocket.
My camera didn't pick up the color quite right, but it's this silvery blue grey color, very cool looking.
The coated sprocket definitely feels really slippery in your hands.
Speaking of hands, this stuff gets everywhere and on everything.
Handling the parts before the excess gets wiped off will leave you looking like you just gave the Tin Man a hand job LOL.

Next part was my new Rear Sprocket.
I had originally masked off everything but the teeth, but unfortunately the masking film I used did not stay put under the high application pressure.
So, off with the film and I just coat the whole thing ...


337048


Here again the color in the picture doesn't do it justice, but if you remember this aluminum sprocket was black anodized.
This is a closeup picture of the sprocket, you can see that the "grain" of the aluminum is still there, showing that there is no "build" with this material.


337049


After doing the above sprockets I figured there was no need to stop there.
Anything worth doing is worth over doing, right ...


337050


Yep, took my brand new DID Chain, cleaned off all the Factory applied lube and tossed it in the cabinet.
Let me first say, coating an entire chain blind is a challenge !!!
I left all the excess on the chain hoping that when I install it and apply chain lube it will get worked into the pins and rollers.

So where do I go from here ???
Part 3 coming up ...

For those of you wanting some parts coated, I will be seeking out some participants for "clinical trials" in the very near future.
But before I do I want to make sure this works and I get the application process worked out.
I'm not interested in ruining other Member's parts, for now the risk will be on me.

ToraTora
07-11-2017, 05:18 PM
Wow that looks amazing. Looking forward to when you start using the parts.

XERO
07-23-2017, 08:01 PM
Finally got all my new aluminum wheel spacers machined !!!
This meant I could now finish assembling my wheels and get the RS off the stands.
But wait, nothing is that easy ...

So I duplicated all the Factory Wheel Spacers inner and outer from some 7075 Aluminum.
Brought them home and stuck the Wheel Bearing Spacers in the Rims and they felt a little long ...
By this I mean they felt longer then the ledges the Wheel Bearings sit on.
So back to the Shop to measure everything up and figure out what was funky.
Me or the Spacers ...

Turns out the Factory spacers are longer, .020" for the Front and .025" for the Rear.
Fuck me !!!
That's way too much potential axial loading of my new ceramic bearings for me.
No big deal, just another trip back to the Shop and wizzzz off the excess.
Now just to justify the above maneuver, all of my previous encounters with bearing spacers have been just on the + side of perfect.
Not sure who botched what on my RS, but I suggest everyone take a few and check the measurements on their's when they go and fit new bearings.

OK so that's over, what could possibly be next ???

How's the Front Axle on the RS being smaller in diameter then the shaft on my Balance Stand ...
Well, that would at least explain why there were no Wheel Weights on my front Rim.
You would think that a Shop might happen to mention something like that when they fit new tires for you, or not ...
This is exactly why I fit and balance my own shit.
Shame on me for taking the easy way out and letting someone else do something sooooooooooo simple for me.

Speaking of which, those of you still running/buying the shitty Pirelli tires ...
Check the Date Codes on the rubbers before you buy.
The crap they fitted to my RS was sitting on a shelf for 8 years, at least I know now why I got a "good deal" on them ...

Anyways, so back to balancing my Rims ...
I had to order a length of Thomson Shaft (turned, ground, polished shaft) at 3/8" diameter and machine some new centering cones.
This was yet another trip back to the Shop, and more time ...
In the end, I prevailed and now have a balanced Front Rim in July .................................................. ......

So with all that B.S. out of the way it's back to forward progress ...

Here is a picture of all my new aluminum and titanium goodies for both wheels.


338107


Between the above and the new "wave" Brake Rotors (Galfer & eBay "special") , I dropped just over 2 pounds.
This does not include the Rear Sprocket, as mine was already an aluminum unit (if anyone has a Factory steel sprocket and can provide the weight I will add it in).

The Factory Axle Blocks looked like "Vending Machine" items when fitted with my new titanium axles so back to the Shop it was, to whittle down some more chunks of 7075 aluminum ...


338108



The MicroBlue ceramic bearings spin forever !!!
Seriously, you give these things a good spin and you might as well go and cook dinner and toss back a few before they stop.
I have never experienced such a free spinning bearing, worth the money already ...

My new Rotors and Pads have proven to be a pain in the ass.
Bedding in the pads has been ultra slow, the Front nested in the first 10 miles at about 80% of what I had, the Rear is still very questionable.
I doubt I have 50%, not sure if it's the Pads or the eBay "special" Rotor, will report back on this ...

The trial runs of everything fitted went well with the exception of my Clutch making some odd noises.
Almost sounds like I have a "dry clutch" when the lever is pulled in.
Guess this forces the next installment of Zen & Lube ...

Rj_666
07-23-2017, 09:13 PM
Beautiful machine work Xero. Those axle blocks are stunning !
Placed my order for the Microblue bearings for an engine rebuild yesterday.... close to 500 for the set, and not including the needle bearings.

freedomgli
07-24-2017, 10:02 AM
Fantastic progress with your Ti axles and the WS2 coating. I love that passionate enthusiasts like yourself are continuing to push the boundaries with these cool little bikes.

Rj_666
07-24-2017, 09:15 PM
Xero, are you gonna try to coat the wrist pin / wrist pin bearing ?

XERO
07-25-2017, 04:27 AM
Yes i do.
In fact this whole coating thing I'm experimenting with stemmed from the lack of "better" needle bearings.
I must admit that i fully plan on going totally overboard with this coating.
I picked up a new Speedo Drive & Cable and have already coated/lubed them with this stuff.
Anything worth doing is worth over doing right LOL !!!

Rj_666
07-25-2017, 01:05 PM
That has long been a motto I try to live by... that and 'Nothing succeeds like EXCESS!'

ToraTora
07-27-2017, 08:20 PM
Wow. Simply magical.

emX50
08-12-2017, 09:27 AM
Here's some more tech on this coating.......

Great work Xero!


Concept
Research
Prototyping

It's the ultimate form of engineering expression.

Clearly birds of a feather flock together... but there appears to be some other underlying principal at play.
Entangled photons?

I've checked the date of your post.
You were carrying out your work, at exactly the same time I was carrying out my work :confused: :)

You will be looking to improve your system, or at least considering the possibility.

You mentioned the potential application to an assembled crank.
There is unlikely to be any problem arising from residual particles.
However, the actual crank bearing surface is masked.
As a result, it may have no impact (er sorry :D) on the bearing surface.

For our cranks... without a serious press and jig... surface modification seems out of reach.
You might have some thoughts on this.

Regarding exposed bearing surfaces, it looks to have been a great success.

I laughed when you said "it all went black" :lol:
It reminded me of an old TV series made by ex SAS showing recruits being trained for high paying bodyguard jobs.
A Dutch guy pitifully exclaimed "but I could hardly see through the googles".
The SAS guy responded without pity "I know... it's normal... but you've still got to function... so lie down, you're dead" :D

In your case, it looks like the minimal particle mass is in your favour re the gloves.
How was that BTW?
Was there any degradation of the glove material?

This visibility issue may mean that your enclosure is only suitable for the WS2
That may be absolutely fine.

The next levels would be surface prep and densification with impact cratering.
This will probably be negligible with WS2, due to the limited particle mass.

For these two processes, you'd source designed particles.
Surface prep requires 'sharpness' (removing the top few molecules).
... but if you are working blind, the gloves can be destroyed in an instant.
... and they are so numb and cack-handed (as you know).
Small components like piston rings are a nightmare - the glove fingers get everywhere.

The solution is: jigs, jigs and more jigs.

The other major problem with going sharp, is the requirement for complete cleanliness, when changing process.
It's an absolute pain - an hours work at least for me.

Anyway, it's definitely worth trying, but your primary difficulty is the gloves.
Perhaps there are some safety workarounds, where the tips (it's always the tips) are reinforced.

Densification and cratering requires a round particle.
These will also destroy the gloves, but not immediately (hopefully).
I say hopefully because your operating pressure is likely to be 7 bar.
I don't need to work at that pressure, so you'd have to test the glove resistance.
Also, my system allows me to see; which makes life soooo much easier (and I still hit the gloves).

Maybe if I had less visibility, I would get around to making more support jigs.

All the lubrication elements that you mention are on my purchase list, but at the moment I'm using an unknown non-stick element.
Unknown, because it's a commercial secret.
It's white BTW.

When my engine is assembled, I'll be reporting on how it has gone.
It can only be an improvement... when I spin the gudgeon pin it now flies through the piston :lover:

The big question for me is whether the top end will be 'run in' after just a few minutes of riding.
The ring only has to knock off the top few molecules of the millions of crater peaks.
Logically, 'running in' should be very quickly achieved, with perfect bedding.

I'm imagining that a huge benefit will arise from the ring track in the exhaust port radius.
It could mean the end of snagged piston rings... which means no more cylinder scratches.

Well, we'll find out ;)

XERO
08-14-2017, 04:07 PM
Our truck had to go into the Shop last week for some repairs and State Inspection so I took the opportunity to put some miles on my RS while Mrs. XERO drove our auto.
First thing I noticed is the Sava tires are awesome !!!
They have more traction and better feel in the rain then the Pirelli's ever did on the hottest of days.
Yes, I got stuck riding home in the rain.
At first I was a little cautious as I was on new rubbers and new brakes, but as it turned out I had nothing to worry about.
The new brakes have bedded in OK and provide good braking even when wet.
But just good braking, will be looking for alternative pad compounds soon.
The Ferodo Platinum pads are just not giving me the "bite" I'm used to.

My clutch hasn't gotten any better (like it would all on it's own) so my plan was to dump the fluids and make the internal adjustments this weekend.
Well just like every other plan, this plan got changed ...

I started poking around and found some items that needed addressed ...

The Manifold Union was showing some cracks and upon further inspection I found the cracks were deep and almost through.
I also found the urethane adapter I made for the PHBG had started to swell.
Not a big deal, I'll just have to make another one.


339779


The Manifold itself on the other hand shows no signs of deterioration what so ever.
That epoxy I used to "match" the Manifold to the Reed Cage has held up perfect.
The edges still can't be felt and it is as "rock solid" as the day I mixed it up.
Bonus Points for the Engineers at PSI for their awesome QuickTitanium epoxy.


339780


For the replacement Manifold Union I have a chunk of silicone hose that I need to trim down.
I guess we'll find out how long this stuff holds up.
Or maybe not, I have a spare Union on hand and might just save this for the next Carb ...


339781


Next up was some cylinder inspection ...
I picked up a new set of Rings, Wrist Pin, and Wrist Pin Bearing.
Here my thought/plan was to clean and coat the Factory 50cc Cylinder and Piston with the WS2 coating.
Providing everything was still in proper order that is ...

My RS has just over 7200 miles on it, I can't speak for how it was ridden for it's first 2400 miles but I sure do know how I've been riding it.
Typical engine RPM 10k and up in all gears all the time.
No mercy for pasta !!!

So here's some pictures of the Factory 50cc Cylinder and Piston ...


339783

339784

339785

339786


The good news is that there is no signs scoring at all.
The Cylinder looks mint, and less the carbon and blow-by on the Piston it's cherry too.
The Wrist Pin and Bearing appear to be in good order as well, although I did notice some "heat" marks on them so the end might have been near.
Not too shabby if I say so myself !!!

Even with these fortunate findings I really just didn't feel like taking the time to clean all this up to the point where I could properly coat it.
Yes yes, I know, I'm just being lazy ...
Actually I had been drinking ...
Heavily ...
So after a moderate staring contest fueled by even more whisky I decided to ditch the "training wheels" and pull my Italkit BBK off the shelf.

Here are some pictures ...


339782

339787


I coated everything, cylinder, piston, rings, wrist pin & bearing !!!

I am currently in the process of re-assembling everything.
Measured the Squish on the new cylinder, Italkit specs .75mm, I got .68mm on repeated tests at different locations.
Leak Down test indicated a small air leak into the Gear Box but not the Stator.
I unfortunately have no plans or time to split the Cases right now, so small leak it is ...
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this doesn't come back to bite me in the ass before I get the chance to have all of my new internals ready for installation.

I have started the daunting task of polishing my Bidalot Transmission.
It has been some years since I polished a complete Gear Box, but it didn't take long to remember why it takes soooooo long.
Once fully polished, it gets the full WS2 treatment.

asechrest
08-14-2017, 04:45 PM
Thanks for the note on the Ferodo pads. I've got the EBC HH's on order for the Derbi, though I have no ability to make a direct comparison to the Ferodo. The existing pads on my bike when purchased are Galfer. I'm having trouble determining whether they're organic, semi-metallic, or sintered. But we'll see how the EBC's compare to those.

mattology
08-14-2017, 05:08 PM
adam, on sunday my buddy was out at bushnell and he cuts 1:06's with ebc HH's on his grom... they work well enough for him..


i have also used the QuickTitanium on my intake! I have to pull it apart to see the condition its in, after the next track day.

ToraTora
08-15-2017, 01:31 AM
I'm always amazed by how you can tell people that something is really good, and they just don't believe it. I suppose that's why I never worry about giving away all my secrets. :P

I don't know that they make performance better, but they make carb futzing much easier. Since you've taken my lead with the Savas, and the Ferodos you may want to check out the Malossi/Polini/Top intake manifolds. They are all basically the same design. I've been getting the Malossi from Treats because they come with the reeds--but I'm going to try out the Stage6 reeds at some point so I ordered the Top intake (http://www.maxiscoot.com/top-performances-intake-manifold-adjustable-pwk-am6-derbi-t9931740-3.html) (also because it's black). They come in two sizes. One for the Del 21/CP21, and the other for the PWK 24. The manifold fits both the Derbi and the AM6 since they enlarge/ovalize two of the mounting holes. Quite clever really. And Top even sells just the rubber part (http://www.maxiscoot.com/top-performances-intake-manifold-flange-rubber-35mm-am6-derbi-t9929260-3.html) so you don't have to purchase the whole thing when the rubber bit fails. Pricing on Maxi right now is quite nice too.


339806

XERO
08-16-2017, 06:01 PM
AF1 has been in and out for the last week and a half here, so I'm a little late on getting back to everyone ...
It took me that whole time just to get my last Post here up.

Thanks for all the feed back guys, much appreciated !!!

Tora,
Dig that manifold I might just order one up and give it a try.
Do you have one now?
I'm curious what the end shape is like on the reed side.
As for the Sava tires, anything would have been an upgrade compared to the Pirelli garbage.
These are already much better then I expected, can't wait to get out and really exploit their possible potential.

asechrest, Mattology,
I think the EBC pads will be my next choice.
I'm an asshole with the Front Brakes on bikes and these Platinum pads just aren't going to cut it for me.
I have squeezed on them pretty hard and just don't like it, can't imagine they would hold up to serious repeated use.
I wish I knew what pads were on the Front before, but there is no markings that I can make out.

emX50,
Nice to see you back on the Forum wagon, your insight is always entertaining and stimulating.

Entangled photons?
That sure would burn the britches on those Chinese Scientists, not to mention the implications to "modern" Cognitive Psychology.

I have been working towards this WS2 coating for the past few years now, massive amounts of research.
All the White Papers I have read on this stuff is truly amazing.
One of my favorites is on "Low Earth Orbit and Reentry" testing.
Not for the technical nature of it, but more for the "wondering mind" it generated.
Could you imagine going to your Boss and saying you have an idea and need an ICBM to test it out.
Seriously, how do you convince someone and who signs the check ?!?!

The pictures I Posted of my crud first attempt at this is just the first step in application.
I needed to build a working rig on the low before I would jump into more expensive equipment.
This is a dedicated cabinet for this process, it would be almost impossible to clean it out to the point of being useful for anything else.
Hence why I went with the cheap Sandblast cabinet and retro fitted it.
The Paasche gun was the single most expensive part of the whole assembly.

For my coating, the Chemical gloves should hold up for ever.
There is nothing abrasive about the WS2.

The air pressure I am using ranges from 120psi to 145psi (8-10 bar).
My regulator on my compressor maxes out at 145psi, tank fills to 210psi (14.5 bar).
The need for such high application pressure is (as you noted) due to the lack of mass for particle size.
Not quite my own personal CERN ... LOL

Can't wait to see more feedback from your "coating", it will be exciting to see if there is any noticeable enhancement.
Even more interesting will be a comparison between your "secret" coating and the WS2 on the same platform.
Onward sir ...

ToraTora
08-16-2017, 09:57 PM
Depending on how you count I have about five or six of those intakes. Mostly I have the Malossi ones, but I bought two or three of the Top ones. The Malossi comes with reeds and as stuffer that matches up quite nicely. Next time I'm out to the storage (should be tomorrow) I'll root around and see if I can find them and take photos for you.

At some point I'm going to beg you to provide a shopping list, and where to buy the WS2 stuff. ;)

XERO
08-17-2017, 09:19 PM
NO need to beg, I'll gladly supply a "list" once I have this all worked out.
Rj, has volunteered to be a "test subject", SUCKER ... LOL
This is all so experimental ...
To "seize" or not to "seize", and how do you get home from there ?!

Rj_666
08-17-2017, 10:04 PM
I've walked home before.... more than once, in fact

ToraTora
08-17-2017, 10:25 PM
I broke the chain on my first GPR, and ended up pushing the bike home. That sucked. lolz :lol:

ToraTora
08-19-2017, 12:26 AM
I took some photos of the Malossi, but because it's in the package the photos didn't come out too well. I'll have to take some more from an open one.


http://i.imgur.com/SdPtakG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xVZRSij.jpg

XERO
08-23-2017, 08:37 PM
What a weekend !!!

Had myself a full weekend with no work or side work, so into the garage I went ...
Finished assembly of my WS2 coated Italkit BBK and started the break-in cycles.

First some thoughts on how the "break-in" might go with a fully coated cylinder :

Due to the nature of the WS2 material my initial thoughts were that break-in would be almost instant (relatively speaking).
This thought was based on the fact that the WS2 acts as a surfactant with liquid lubricants, but only at the contacting surface.
Meaning it does not alter the surface tension of the entire lubricant, only the surface tension of the lubricant that contacts the coating and only for the period of contact.
(I have some tests lined up to verify this for myself, but the above is based on research papers)
So what does this mean for break-in?
It means that the small amount of 2T oil that is deposited on the cylinder walls and rings will actually prevent the them from ever touching.
Yes, this is what we all hope always happens but we all know it is an imperfect expectation.
If this is indeed the case, it means that ring wear should (could) be practically eliminated.
Now as far as break-in is concerned if your rings never get the chance, why would they ever need to "bed-in".
I have some more technical insight to add to this, but it will have to wait till the next Zen & Lube Post ...

First difference I noticed was during assembly, the piston slid into the cylinder as if there were no rings on it.
If I hadn't put them on myself I would have called bullshit and pulled it apart to see.
Next difference came when I made the first test ride ...
Keeping the engine RPM's in check for staged Heat/RPM cycles was challenging.
The engine wanted to spool !!!
Almost like the engine had an Internal Rotor installed on a "lightened" Crank.

My test loop was down through and around the neighbor hood with varying rural terrain, about 1.5 miles total.
Each cycle was followed by plug and bore scope inspection.
First cycle was 4-5k, half hour cool down.
Second was 5-6k, half hour cool down.
Third was 6-7k, repeat cool down, etc .................
Max RPM I reached was 10k for extended 10 mile test loop.

At 10k the pipe was just starting to come on, making keeping the RPM's in check even more difficult.
Power output from the Italkit was great, pulling from down low with moderate grunt and kept moving up with RPM's.
There was no evidence of any markings of any kind on the cylinder wall, in fact it was so clear you could easily read the engraving on the piston top in the reflection on the cylinder wall.
I was messing with jetting at the same time as break-in, so it was interesting to watch the "wash" come and go and evolve on the piston top.
(I should have been snapping pictures, but was stuffed by dead batteries in the bore scope's "image/video capture" module.)
Through out this entire break-in cycle it truly felt like there was less rotating mass then what was present with the stock 50cc cylinder.
It also felt like nothing changed, the first ride felt just the same as the last (pertaining to the above).

I have just over 20 miles on the new cylinder and feel that it is broke-in good enough for some extended "high RPM" stints.
This weekend I'm back out and plan on really whipping it ...
My neighbors have to hate me !!!
LOL

Rj_666
08-23-2017, 08:41 PM
Great stuff !!
Anxious to hear more -

ToraTora
08-25-2017, 12:27 AM
Wow!

So much great news! :lover:

Rj_666
08-30-2017, 10:37 PM
Thinking some more about this stuff....
Seems like this isn't actually ... imbedded, or really stuck to the surface it's applied to , not given the air pressure you're spraying at. Are the particles hard enough to be 'worn' into the surfaces during operation ? I mean do they ... 'scratch' the surfaces, and then exist inside the scratches, or what ?

Seems like in a 2 stroke, being exposed to fuel would cause the particles to be washed away.

Interesting stuff, indeed !

freedomgli
09-26-2017, 10:26 AM
Regarding the WS2, I was doing some research and came across this article, where the author states, "Sadly, the application of WS2 caused many engines to fail due to improper bearing preparation and application. So, we won't be using that process again :-("

http://mngforce.typepad.com/nc450vdev/product-brycoat-advanced-metalurgical-coatings.html

Rj_666
09-26-2017, 12:28 PM
Different type of bearings, maybe ?
Babbit / shell vs ball / roller ?

freedomgli
09-26-2017, 07:18 PM
Different type of bearings, maybe ?
Babbit / shell vs ball / roller ?
I don't have specifics about how they used WS2 or what problems they encountered, but it was in a Honda VFR400 V4 motor with standard shell type bearings.

Rj_666
09-26-2017, 07:54 PM
Or perhaps it was (as they sort of allude to) "bad preparation / application process"...

XERO
09-27-2017, 07:39 AM
I haven't found much in the way of "testimonials" for actual use of this stuff.
Usually just random blurbs and nothing more.
I agree, it would have been nice if the article gave a little more explanation into what failed and how.
Not to mention why he noted possible prep issues.

So the question is, was it the WS2 or prep/application ???

Or perhaps was the problem that it was a Honda ...

Rj_666
09-27-2017, 11:41 AM
Also seems like the force vectors in a shell style bearing is going to be in a 'up-down' plane, rather than a 'radial' load. Or it's a Honda.

XERO
01-01-2018, 03:16 PM
Yet again it has been a busy past few months for me and progress has been slow ...
I have managed to get one project closer to completion, sorted out an issue, and started on yet another project.

My Upper Triple Clamp is done and ready to be anodized ...


348893


I did find that I needed to clearance the Vortex Clip-Ons to accommodate the new Upper.
You can see in the above picture where I had to machine a little into the body of the Clip-On.
This was due to the amount of material I left around the Fork Tube.
Had I spent more time measuring I would have noticed this and had reduced the thickness .050" and not had an issue.
Hind sight ...
Below are some more pictures of it and the "bolt-on" Ignition Hoop.


348894

348895


I have some different Ti bolts on the way for the Upper, didn't like the look of the socket heads.

Speaking of bolts ...
Awhile back I had mentioned I had a funny noise with my Clutch.
Turns out the new Ti bolt I installed for the Oil Level was too long and was hitting the Clutch Basket when you would pull the clutch in.
It's kinda hard to see in this picture, but there is a little section of the tip that was hitting.


348896


As if I didn't have enough on my "project plate" ...


348897

348899

348901


Started on an aluminum Kick Stand ...
This one is going to take some time to sort out and get to the point of a finished product.
Should be worth it in the end, I hope.

So that wraps up my last quarter of 2017.
Really hope I can find the time to be more productive in 2018 ...
LOL

Rj_666
01-01-2018, 07:34 PM
Beautiful work. Love the upper triple !!

ToraTora
01-01-2018, 11:52 PM
Wow that is just beautiful. Beautiful.

Nigelb63
02-03-2018, 09:43 AM
Not a lot has been happening with my RS lately.
Although some goodies have been arriving ...

First up, HPI Ignition for a future episode.


333402


Complete with all the "bells and whistles", Dual Timing Curves and Tach Output.
For now, this will sit in it's box and wait ...

Next up, new chain, sprocket, rubbers, and wheel bearings.


333403


Obviously there are no rubbers in the picture, got them mounted already.
Had ordered up some SAVAs from Treats, can't wait to try them out !!!
GOOD BYE scary Pirelli's !!!
Check out the new rear sprocket from the good folks at Sprocket Specialists.
And some trick new ceramic wheel bearings, complete with WS2 coating !!!

Other then the parts pile getting bigger, the only other thing I managed is to get started on are my ultra sexy titanium axles.
Hope to get some machine time here soon to finish the heads.


333404


Currently my RS is up on stands and patiently waiting.
I have at least ran the motor and kicked the tires, put 3 miles on the ODO ... LOL

Does the Hpi ignition fit if you're using the electric start /flywheel?

Rj_666
02-03-2018, 02:32 PM
Normally, these 'higher tech, more features' aftermarket ignitions like the HPI do not have provision for electric start, and some do not even include a lighting coil. I think Xero may have further input on the HPI and electric start soon.

ToraTora
02-03-2018, 06:27 PM
It is conceivable that a starter ring could be added to the HPI 210 mini rotor, but by doing so you would be adding weight back to it negating one if its bigger gains by switching to it. There's also the side effect of needing to make sure it's balanced, which isn't an easy task without the proper tools. Possible, but harder. Now a small ring could be added and a cog wheel placed between the rotor and the starter, but you'd still have to add a starter ring to the rotor, still have to balance it, and would still be adding some weight.

The other options are of course to use the stock rotor, or an ignition with a starter ring gear, and then change out the CDI unit with different/programable curves. There are a number of options there (http://gprcamp.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=49&sid=d00af398155e296ff034bad995285363#p472).

I have three HPI ignitions. One of the inner rotors, and two of the 210 mini rotors. The inner works great, but no accessories what-so-ever, and the garbage coil that they sell for it is well garbage. Don't even waste your money on one. The 210 mini rotors don't seem to play nice with timing lights, or tachometers. I've had less than a happy experience with them, unfortunately. It will be interesting to see what Xero comes up with, but for me I'm already looking at other possibilities.

Nigelb63
02-04-2018, 05:37 AM
Hi Tora, it’s the claimed increase in charging output compared to the standard Ducati that got my attention.

XERO
02-04-2018, 07:13 AM
As already noted, the HPI 2TEN does not have provisions for use with the Electric Starter.
The 2TEN Mini Rotor is much smaller in diameter than the Factory Ducati unit fitted to the RS.
There is no chance of using it in conjunction with the Factory components to retain the use of the Electric Starter.

Ian posted up a picture of an MVT one that has the starter ring gear (MVT EXT 112) over in the Technical Section (Stator bit the bullet).

Also as noted, the major benefit to switching to these is the reduction of rotating mass.
Tossing in a big chunk of steel negates this benefit.

As for charging, most of these units come with 55 watt Lighting Coils which is slightly less than the Factory Ducati output of 65 watts.
Tora had mentioned a PowerDynamo with 100 watt output but noted they didn't make an option for our bikes.
The HPI units now come with 60 watt coil, closer but still less than the Ducati.
I picked up a Stator from Teknix with a claimed 80 watt output that is a direct replacement for the Ducati Stator.
I have not fit this to my RS yet, so I cannot offer anymore than these next 2 pictures ...


350763

350764


If you look back towards the beginning of this Thread you will see where I fitted an RS 125 Headlight to my RS 50.
The bulbs in the RS 125 Headlight use 55 watt compared to the 35 watt of the 50's.
To make up the difference in power consumption I swapped out all of the incandescent bulbs with LED.
I posted a wattage use comparison between the incandescent and LED, I also verified the total draw with an Amp Meter.

If you are looking for an easy solution to slightly increase the power available for charging, start with LED.
Your options are going to be really limited as to how much you can bump-up the charging output of the RS.
The other issue is the battery itself, the standard issue lead acid for the RS is only rated at 4ah.
That means that there is little in the way of reserve capacity if you go and start adding all sorts of electronic gizmos.
Even going as far as fitting a larger Amp Hour battery will only prolong the inevitable with such limited charging.

Back to the HPI ...

I am in the process of making a "bolt on" Starter Gear.
Progress is slow due to my schedule, but I am making progress.
It is currently in the initial design stages, more to come soon ...


350765

Rj_666
02-04-2018, 03:18 PM
Anxious to hear how this turns out !

XERO
02-08-2018, 09:39 PM
Awhile back Mattology discovered that the Front Forks on our RS's were less than "fully functional".
Turns out that only one leg had full compression and rebound damping, the other lacked any sort of rebound.

(Matt did a nice extensive write-up in his "long time no post" Thread, check it out for all his details)

Armed with his passed on knowledge and an awesome deal from AF1, I was able to secure another complete set of Marzocchi Forks.


351071


Mattology's solution was to pillage the Upper Fork Tube and Damping Rod from the "functional" fork and transplant it into the Lower of the "passive" fork.
Instant duel damping for the RS's front end !!!
Mattology didn't stop there, he went on to add Race Tech Emulators and Preload adjustment to further the transformation of the RS's suspension.
Anyone of us that have bikes with more "modern" suspensions can fully endorse this endeavor.

Before I get into the Emulator and Preload mod for my RS I figured it best to start by just adding duel damping.
It's always best to not change too many things at once ...
So, here are my findings and my first step towards bringing my RS's front end up to par ...

Here are 2 pictures of the Damping Rods from both forks.
Note that both Damping Rods are identical less the seal on the piston.


351073

351074



The seal on the damping rod piston is responsible for more than just rebound damping, it also effects the compression damping.
To what extent it plays I can't say for certain, meaning I lack the knowledge of individual component influences on the sum.
I took a trip the other week to see the regional suspension gurus, only to find they moved their Shop further north and I didn't have the time to pursue.
So for now the answer to the above remains open ...

The other difference between the two forks is in the Upper itself.
Actually just in the lower region.
Below are 3 pictures looking into the bases of the two fork tubes.
The tube on the left is the "passive" tube and the one on the right is the "active" tube ...


351075

351076

351077


The tube on the left has nothing more than a blunt steel spacer inserted into the base for no good reason.
The tube on the right has something more going on, there is a floating washer on top of a shorter spacer.
That floating washer just so happens to be a "check valve" for the rebound damping circuit.
Again, to what extent it plays as an individual component and it's influences on the sum ...

Here we must make note that the Kaifa and the Marzocchi forks are not identical.
Rj_666 has found that the Race Tech fork spring kit (as sold from AF1) does NOT fit the Kaifa forks.
Make sure you check what forks you have before you go diving into this project.
Marzocchi forks will have a an "M" cast into the Lower Tubes.
Check before you spend ...

Fully assembled and almost ready to go ...


351078


OK now that that's all sorted lets move on to the other major contributing variable, fluid weight.
So the RS Manual was less than helpful.


351079


Nothing about that tells me what was in my forks that I've been riding around on.
Was it 5w, was it 20w, or was it something in between ???
So to answer this question I conducted a crude "viscosity drop test" on the oil that came out of my original forks and the oil that came in the new set of forks.
Here I enlisted the help of a steel ball bearing, beaker, and a stop watch.
I had on hand 5w, 10w, and 20w fork oils from Silkolene and the two original oils.


351080


Timing the ball drop between the various fluids gave me a rough viscosity baseline and the ability to approximate what was in my forks to begin with.
It turns out the Factory oil was somewhere more than 10w and less than 20w.
So to keep this moving forward I have elected to fill my forks with the straight 20w oil.
Currently it is utterly miserable outside (snow & ice), but as soon as the weather breaks I'll give some feedback on all of this.
Then it's onto Mattology's Emulator mod ...

freedomgli
02-09-2018, 11:36 AM
Thank you so much for the pics and the write up! I've got all this same stuff sitting on a shelf waiting for me to get off my lazy bum and do the same thing. I appreciate all the people blazing the trail for the rest of us.

ToraTora
02-09-2018, 09:35 PM
Yup super awesome to see work like this going on. ;)

chadzilla1
02-09-2018, 09:53 PM
how much did you pay for the extra set of Marzocchi Forks?

So the right side you need a second one to replace the left side that has no function?

XERO
02-10-2018, 07:13 AM
freedomgli,

No problem.
I too had been sitting on these parts for a while now and with winter in full effect here I figured no better time.
Hopefully this will inspire you to clear off some shelf space of your own.

chadzilla,

I picked up that complete set of forks and clamps from AF1 for something like $180 (plus shipping) about a year ago.
I think they sold all of them within a few days.
You could always contact them and see what availability they might have on them today.
Just make sure they are the Marzocchi ones.
Rj_666 got stuffed with a set of Kaifa ones during the same sale.

And yes, you need the RIGHT fork to complete this transplant mod.
I opted to install all the goodies into my new lowers so I had fresh seals.

I did see some new fork tubes listed on eBay but couldn't tell which side they were from the Seller's pictures.
You could try and contact them and see if they could verify if any of them have the check valve washer in the base of the tube.
They were a little pricey with shipping to the States, but your options might be rather limited if you are really looking to do this.

I have a Part# for the piston seal from Aprilia but do not know if it is correct.
It was listed for the Kaifa flavor forks.
Next time I order some parts from Aprilia I am going to order one just to find out.
A good Suspension Shop might be able to supply the piston seal as well.

mattology
02-10-2018, 08:02 AM
i’m going to experiment with printing the seal out of nylon

Nigelb63
02-10-2018, 03:52 PM
I’ve yet to remove and strip and measure the swing arm on my 2001 project. Perhaps,if you guys have already had your swingarms stripped, would it be possible to replace the standard bushes with tapered roller bearings?

Rj_666
02-10-2018, 05:48 PM
Nigel -
I have my 2000 RS50 swingarm stripped (but it's at the powder coaters) and have been considering the same question.
Probably not gonna be able to use tapered rollers, but straight rollers (needle bearings) might work.

The later model RS50 / RS4 uses these straight roller bearings. I have one of these later swingarms, and have been toying with changing the RS50 plastic bushing / steel sleeve etc out for these straight rollers.

I'll start a thread on it over in the tech section later this evening.

mattology
02-10-2018, 06:22 PM
i'm jus tusing oil impregnated bronze

Nigelb63
02-10-2018, 06:39 PM
i'm jus tusing oil impregnated bronze
Would you have the size of bush to hand, Matt?

mattology
02-10-2018, 06:51 PM
man it’s been since 2011 that i sized it all out , i don’t remember off hand but maybe i can get lucky and look through my mcmaster invoices sometime soon

Nigelb63
02-10-2018, 07:04 PM
Sweet. It just shows it was the right choice as you’ve not had to replace them .

Nigelb63
02-10-2018, 07:05 PM
Nigel -
I have my 2000 RS50 swingarm stripped (but it's at the powder coaters) and have been considering the same question.
Probably not gonna be able to use tapered rollers, but straight rollers (needle bearings) might work.

The later model RS50 / RS4 uses these straight roller bearings. I have one of these later swingarms, and have been toying with changing the RS50 plastic bushing / steel sleeve etc out for these straight rollers.

I'll start a thread on it over in the tech section later this evening.
sweet, looking forward to reading it.

freedomgli
02-10-2018, 08:48 PM
I’m using oil impregnated bronze in my CB350 race bike’s swingarm pivot. They might not be as low friction as needle bearings but they are just as rigid and they’re lower maintenance.

XERO
02-11-2018, 08:04 AM
i’m going to experiment with printing the seal out of nylon

This would be very exciting !!!
How are you planing on dealing with the stepped split in the seal?
Is that something you can print into it or will you have to mask-off the step while printing the whole seal?


I haven't got to my swingarm yet, so i'm more than curious what upgrades others have come up with.
I'm sure there is proper sized roller bearings out there, someone is just going to have to take the measurements and start looking.
With the success I had with my Ti axles you can bet I'll be making a Ti swingarm bolt too.
Now I'm wishing there was a lightweight aluminum swingarm available.
That big chunk of steel belongs on a Harley, not a 50 ...

Nigelb63
02-11-2018, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE=XERO;4384526]This would be very exciting !!!
How are you planing on dealing with the stepped split in the seal?
Is that something you can print into it or will you have to mask-off the step while printing the whole seal?


I haven't got to my swingarm yet, so i'm more than curious what upgrades others have come up with.
I'm sure there is proper sized roller bearings out there, someone is just going to have to take the measurements and start looking.
With the success I had with my Ti axles you can bet I'll be making a Ti swingarm bolt too.
Now I'm wishing there was a lightweight aluminum swingarm available.
That big chunk of steel belongs on a Harley, not a 50

Have a look at this product, pherhaps two set at 180degrees to each other might work. https://www.igus.co.uk/iglidur/piston-ring

Nigelb63
02-13-2018, 01:28 PM
This would be very exciting !!!
How are you planing on dealing with the stepped split in the seal?
Is that something you can print into it or will you have to mask-off the step while printing the whole seal?


I haven't got to my swingarm yet, so i'm more than curious what upgrades others have come up with.
I'm sure there is proper sized roller bearings out there, someone is just going to have to take the measurements and start looking.
With the success I had with my Ti axles you can bet I'll be making a Ti swingarm bolt too.
Now I'm wishing there was a lightweight aluminum swingarm available.
That big chunk of steel belongs on a Harley, not a 50 ...

I will be fabricating an aluminium swingarm very soon but you won't see any results until fall. If I can make them affordable then I will offer them for general sale.

mattology
02-13-2018, 02:51 PM
This would be very exciting !!!
How are you planing on dealing with the stepped split in the seal?
Is that something you can print into it or will you have to mask-off the step while printing the whole seal?


I haven't got to my swingarm yet, so i'm more than curious what upgrades others have come up with.
I'm sure there is proper sized roller bearings out there, someone is just going to have to take the measurements and start looking.
With the success I had with my Ti axles you can bet I'll be making a Ti swingarm bolt too.
Now I'm wishing there was a lightweight aluminum swingarm available.
That big chunk of steel belongs on a Harley, not a 50 ...

i was thinking about making them lock on to each other, but have the gaps being 180 degrees apart like oil rings on a 4 stroke piston

Nigelb63
02-18-2018, 12:47 PM
As already noted, the HPI 2TEN does not have provisions for use with the Electric Starter.
The 2TEN Mini Rotor is much smaller in diameter than the Factory Ducati unit fitted to the RS.
There is no chance of using it in conjunction with the Factory components to retain the use of the Electric Starter.

Ian posted up a picture of an MVT one that has the starter ring gear (MVT EXT 112) over in the Technical Section (Stator bit the bullet).

Also as noted, the major benefit to switching to these is the reduction of rotating mass.
Tossing in a big chunk of steel negates this benefit.

As for charging, most of these units come with 55 watt Lighting Coils which is slightly less than the Factory Ducati output of 65 watts.
Tora had mentioned a PowerDynamo with 100 watt output but noted they didn't make an option for our bikes.
The HPI units now come with 60 watt coil, closer but still less than the Ducati.
I picked up a Stator from Teknix with a claimed 80 watt output that is a direct replacement for the Ducati Stator.
I have not fit this to my RS yet, so I cannot offer anymore than these next 2 pictures ...


350763

350764


If you look back towards the beginning of this Thread you will see where I fitted an RS 125 Headlight to my RS 50.
The bulbs in the RS 125 Headlight use 55 watt compared to the 35 watt of the 50's.
To make up the difference in power consumption I swapped out all of the incandescent bulbs with LED.
I posted a wattage use comparison between the incandescent and LED, I also verified the total draw with an Amp Meter.

If you are looking for an easy solution to slightly increase the power available for charging, start with LED.
Your options are going to be really limited as to how much you can bump-up the charging output of the RS.
The other issue is the battery itself, the standard issue lead acid for the RS is only rated at 4ah.
That means that there is little in the way of reserve capacity if you go and start adding all sorts of electronic gizmos.
Even going as far as fitting a larger Amp Hour battery will only prolong the inevitable with such limited charging.

Back to the HPI ...

I am in the process of making a "bolt on" Starter Gear.
Progress is slow due to my schedule, but I am making progress.
It is currently in the initial design stages, more to come soon ...


350765
Hi Xero. Yes, I intend to fit led lamps to the instrument cluster (are they T5 type fitting do you know) I’ve got a set of turn signal indicators and ballasted relay. I’ve opted for a rear lamp mod , with ring led, as you’ve done. I’ve got an rs125 headlight already as well as an adjustable voltage reg from treats.

XERO
02-18-2018, 02:36 PM
The RS's gauge Cluster has basically 2 different bulb types, #194 & #74 styles.

The Temp Gauge has a single #74 bulb fitted, I added a second Factory Socket to double down on it's illumination.
I have yet to find a suitable aftermarket socket that fits without extensive modification.
I had purchased a whole second Gauge Cluster and robbed the Factory socket from it's harness.
There may be sockets out there that fit better than what I've found, but you would have to look and possible buy to find out.

The Tach and Speedo both use a single #194 bulb each.
For these two gauges I went with #194 LED bulbs that had 5 5050 SMD chips each.
This was done to better illuminate the gauges compared to the Factory's incandescent bulb choice.

The Indicator bulbs are also #194 style.
Here however I went with #194 LED bulbs with a single 5050 SMD chip for each.
There was no need for the extra light output around the perimeter of the bulb, nor the extra power consumption.

The photo below shows the 3 bulb styles I used for my RS.
LEFT is the single chip #194 for Indicators.
MIDDLE is 5 chip #194 for Tach & Speedo
RIGHT is 3 chip #74 for Temp Gauge


351669


I recommend purchasing LED bulbs in the same color as they are intended to illuminate.
This is because of the narrow wavelength (color) of light they produce.
Using a white bulb with a green, red, or blue lens will actually give off a dimmer appearance than a bulb of the proper color.

Rj_666
02-18-2018, 06:06 PM
I did the same modification to my dash, and added the 125 headlamp. I did the second bulb in the (near useless) temp gauge as well, however, I bought a harness from AF1 to get the second socket.

XERO
03-15-2018, 05:11 PM
Here are some pictures and such of my "bolt-on" spool mounts ...

This is the second generation of the mounts I made for my RS.
The first ones were a little lacking and needed some more attention.
I think this version works rather well and looks good too.


353276


Below is the install pics ...

Once I found the ideal mounting location with ample clearance to everything I marked off the location on the Swingarm.
I started with the Exhaust side of things do to the offset DG can I have fitted.
Projecting this location square to the other leg of the Swingarm took a little figuring.
I started by re-installing my axle and tightening it up to the same distance apart as it is with the Rear Wheel installed.
For my RS this was + 171mm.
Next I secured a 123 block to the Swingarm with some magnetic welding angles.
This didn't end up supporting everything securely so I put a series of small neodymium magnets on the 123 block to help hold it in place.
This worked and I have a blood blister to prove it ...
I clamped a combination square to the 123 block and used the straight edge portion to transfer the marks to the other side.


353277


With marks on both legs I next clamped the Drill Jig I made to the Swingarm.
Here I also used the square set-up to make sure the Drill Jig was in-line and square between the 2 sides.
When I made the Spool Mounts I didn't really leave a lot of room for installation error with the riv-nuts location.
This is why I made the Drill Jig.
If you don't drill the holes perfect nothing is going to bolt up.
The next batch will have more slop and be a little more forgiving.
(Sorry to those of you that got these first ones, take your time and everything should work out.)
Unfortunately I didn't get the drill bits in time and the holes I made in the Drill Jig were a little snug to the drill bits.
To fix this I went and ran the drill bit through each hole prior to using it as a jig.
(NOTE !!! Do not hold any of this with your hands, clamp the jig down to a block of wood and then chase the holes.)
With the Drill Jig firmly clamped I drilled the two hole through the Swingarm.
Use extra caution when you are about to "break through" as you do not want the drill bit to snag and move the jig.


353278


With all the holes in place I carefully deburred both the inside and outside of the holes prior to installing the riv-nuts.
Installed the riv-nuts, bolted on the mounts, and my spools.
Job Done ...


353279

353280

353281


I cheated when drilling the holes, I used my Right Angle Drill so I didn't have to suspend the bike up high enough to get under it with my cordless.
I also used these trick deburring tools to take care of the bur on the inside of the holes.
These guys flip around when you push the button on the bottom and let you debur the inside of holes.
And with the help of a quality riv-nut setter it was an easy install.


353282


Here's the final picture with the RS up on it's new stand ...


353283

stevieboy22
03-15-2018, 06:15 PM
Nice. Using the proper tool is not "cheating"!

freedomgli
03-15-2018, 07:53 PM
Those deburring tools are trick. Much nicer than the whirlygig I use for most holes. Where did you get them?

I have a Profi Laser Chain Alignment Tool (CAT) that I might use to project the lines from one side of the swingarm to the other. Plus verify with my trusty calipers. Measure 10x, drill once.

ToraTora
03-16-2018, 02:46 PM
Xero that came out fantastic.

XERO
03-18-2018, 06:59 AM
Those deburring tools are from a company called Noga.
They have 3 sizes, small RC 1000, medium RC 2000, large RC 2200
You can find them on eBay, search " Noga RC ".
They are defiantly worth 10x their weight is what ever you value the most.



Using the proper tool is not "cheating"!

I know, it just feels like "cheating" ...
Like the feeling you get when you walk into a Shop and see some fledgling wrestling with something they make a tool for.
Sure he has a fancy SnapOn Tool Box, but most of the drawers are empty.
Tools, tools, tools, gotta have the tools.

freedomgli
03-26-2018, 10:30 AM
Those deburring tools are from a company called Noga.
They have 3 sizes, small RC 1000, medium RC 2000, large RC 2200
You can find them on eBay, search " Noga RC ".
They are defiantly worth 10x their weight is what ever you value the most.

Thanks! RC = reversible countersink. The supplied "W" drill bit = 0.3860 in. Based on the specs, the Noga RC2000 seems like the best tool for the job since it has a working range of 5 - 10 mm.

Nigelb63
04-13-2018, 04:26 AM
What is the trick with measuring the exhaust gas temp?

ToraTora
04-13-2018, 05:04 AM
What is the trick with measuring the exhaust gas temp?

Every bike and setup is going to be different—much like tuning a carb. You have to calibrate your readings. To do that you look at the piston wash. This wash is the best way to know what's going on. You correlate that with the temp readings. Eventually you'll have enough data to know what the temps mean on that bike. A good way to check the wash is with one of the inexpensive USB/Bluetooth bore scopes have have come out recently. Then you only need pull the spark plug to read the wash.

mattology
04-13-2018, 08:03 AM
150mm from the piston skirt

jet way rich first

slowly lean out until you’re at 1125F at the top of 6th gear

Nigelb63
04-13-2018, 12:14 PM
Thanks for the education. It makes sense for the track. Especially as you don't have to take into account RAD when jetting it seems. When I used to race Tz350's in the golden years of the 80's(��) a barometer, thermometer, calculator and rule of thumb is all we had.

mattology
04-13-2018, 04:01 PM
Thanks for the education. It makes sense for the track. Especially as you don't have to take into account RAD when jetting it seems. When I used to race Tz350's in the golden years of the 80's(��) a barometer, thermometer, calculator and rule of thumb is all we had.



i still use a rad gauge and my log book.. first thing i do when i get to the track is turn on my rad gauge and let it stabilize... depending on the change it may tell me i need to change my jetting before even getting into track the first time.

ToraTora
04-14-2018, 05:20 PM
150mm from the piston skirt

jet way rich first

slowly lean out until you’re at 1125F at the top of 6th gear

A lot of folks recommend 90-100mm from the piston. The gauge you get will probably have information on where to set the sensor.

freedomgli
04-16-2018, 07:46 AM
Especially as you don't have to take into account RAD when jetting it seems.

i still use a rad gauge and my log book...

I love this kind of stuff and learning something new every day on this forum. RAD = Relative Air Density. Apparently, fast two-stroke guys have a RAD tool and use it regularly. Because I'm just a weekend warrior and not racing at the pointy end of the pack, I've never really spent much time considering jetting changes before. My bike could probably make slightly more power if I monkeyed with the jetting, but then I'd have less safety margin when conditions change. Right now my bike works decent over a wide range of conditions thanks to that rather large safety margin. Racers don't have that luxury, especially if they want to win in a competitive field. But with less safety margin they're always on the razor's edge of being down on power or seizing their engine. Which is where the EGT gauge comes in. You want to keep a close eye on that to reduce the likelihood of an engine seizure.

https://www.intercompracing.com/documents/Understanding_Air_Density.pdf

UNDERSTANDING AIR DENSITY

Air density impacts your performance because it changes at every karting event. Air density is poorly understood and often ignored by even experienced racers. The reason being that air density is a combination of three major factors, the air’s temperature, its
pressure and how much water vapor it contains.

We all know that air is really dense on the hot humid summer days when you can cut the air with a butter knife. Well we are all wrong. The air's density is highest at sea level when the barometric pressure is high and the temperature is low, such as on a sunny cold, winter's day in New Hampshire. Dense or "heavier" air will slow down the karts because the object has to, push aside more or heavier molecules. To racers this resistance is called "drag. However this dense or heavier air is also providing a far greater charge to the cylinder on each intake stroke and the gains made by the engine will offset the losses to drag if you get the jetting correct for the carburetors.

Air density is lowest at a high elevation on a hot day when the barometric pressure is low. The worst combination is a hot, humid day at a location like Denver with a thunderstorm near by. We have high heat, low atmospheric pressure caused by the altitude, low barometric pressure caused by the storm and high relative humidity. Humidity is the least significant factor when working with air density.

How to calculate air density: To calculate air density, use the Ideal Gas Law equation solved for density. The equation is: D=P/(T*R). You will need either chemistry or physics training to solve this equation.

It is a lot less math and a lot easier to look at an air density gauge. Our unit is from Intercomp, of Minneapolis MN.

The goal that we all strive for in racing is to achieve the perfect air/fuel mixture to get the optimum performance from the motor.

Each intake stroke draws the same volume of air into the cylinder but density or weight of that volume will vary greatly from day to day. If the density or weight increases and we do not increase the fuel sufficiently the mixture will be lean and this usually means that we stick pistons. If the density decreases and we do not take away fuel we run rich and our performance is flat.

Using an Intercomp air density gauge is very simple:
1. Open the container, place the gauge in a horizontal position in a shaded area.
Our choice is on top of the toolbox in the trailer.
2. Let the gauge stabilize while you do your normal race preparation. (1/2 hour)
3. Using the information provided, select the correct jet.

We will use two examples, one for a Briggs and one for a 125 shifter.

First the Briggs:
The last time you ran the kart the air density was 94% (you did write this down with the other notes that you keep). The jet that you ran was a .60. (this also came from the notes, or did you have to remove it from the carburetor to tell). Today the air density gauge is reading 86%.

The formula is:
(86-94)/94 = (-8)/94 = -.085 (or minus 8.5%)

The minus sign tell us that there is less air density, we know that we need less fuel for lower air density. We need to reduce the main jet by –8.5%.

Intercomp has made this easy for us they provide us with a table that accompanies the instructions. The table tells us that .60 jet has an area of .002827 and that to subtract –8.5% is –.000240 so the ideal jet is .002587. The closest jet to this size is a 57jet. It becomes as simple as reading the gear ratio chart after a few attempts.

After you set the jet make sure that you are reading the plug to be sure that there is sufficient fuel as the motor builder may have altered the timing to a degree that it needs less or more fuel. In the case of the 125 shifters they are almost all running programmable ignition boxes and the timing changes can be as frequent as every 200 RPM’s so reading the plug is critical.

For those of you who were lost in the weeds at the last event and have no starting point it is best for you to find one of the better tuners and ask for their prior setting. They have nothing to loose by telling you the jet size and the air density from the last event. They will likely be pleased to see you showing up with some add tuning tools and even give you some added advice how to use you new air density gauge. I have always been a firm believer that race organizations should post temperature, relative humidity air density and barometric pressure ever hour. It would make a lot more racers aware that these factors need to be considered before the motor starts every time. It would also help keep a lot of the marginal racers asking more questions so that they will improve their performance and enjoy more synergy within the sport.

The above calculation will work for two cycle motors as you are making the change based upon a percentage change in air density. Just know the starting and current air density and the size of the jet from the last event.

For the 125 Shifters. We always use a combination of tools to jet the shifters. We start with the Mikuni Pocket tuner as our basic jetting tool and then do finer calculations using the Intercomp air density gauge.

When using the Mikuni Pocket Tuner pay particular attention to the type of jet that is use within the carburetor. There are two types of jets the N100.604 and the 4/042 are the most common types of main jet. The number size of the jet is dramatically different but represents the same diameter opening in the jet. An example being that an N100.604 at a 160 size is equivalent to a 4/042 at a 330 size. Do not under or over jet because you are mixing the type of jet that you have available. The Mikuni Pocket Tuner has an illustration of each type of jet on the pocket tuner to keep you from using the wrong jet type.

This Mikuni Pocket Tuner tool provides a guide with increments of as fine as 2.5 jet sizes and 10 degree temperature changes and elevation or altitude changes in 2000-foot increments.

You will find that the larger the variety of jets that you carry the better equipped you are for air density changes.

There are Pocket Tuners available for Keihin carburetors as well as for Mikuni carburetors and these should be available from your engine builder of from the local motorcycle shop as these tuners are very popular with the Motocross racers.

Both tools are very reasonable to purchase. The Intercomp Air Density Gauge is Model 360093 and retails for $117.00 with a case and the Mikuni or Keihin Pocket Tuner retails for $9.95 each.

Intercomp can be reached at:
Intercomp Company
14156 23rd Avenue North
Minneapolis, MN 55447 U.S.A.
Toll Free: 800-328-3336
Worldwide: 763-476-2531
Fax: 763-476-2531
E-mail: highperf@intercompco.com
Web site: www.intercomp-racing.com

Writer: Bob Chiras

NKN

mattology
04-16-2018, 08:04 AM
here is the rad gauge i use:

https://kosonorthamerica.com/shop/motorcycle-mx/air-density-meter/

varesecrazy
04-16-2018, 03:23 PM
here is the rad gauge i use:

https://kosonorthamerica.com/shop/motorcycle-mx/air-density-meter/


thanks :)


I hope the gauge is more accurate than their calendar... 16/04/18 (GMT..) = still EASTER Holidays... ;)

Nigelb63
04-19-2018, 08:05 AM
i'm jus tusing oil impregnated bronze

i've finally stripped the swing arm. I can't find a standard oil impregnated bush to match the size of the original bushes. 27ODx20IDx45. guess I'm going to have to make some.

mattology
04-21-2018, 08:17 AM
yup, easy peasy on a lathe

Martin77
04-22-2018, 05:23 AM
Nigel, according to the part number the swing arm bushes are the same for earlier RS50's, which are available here in the UK. Part number AP-82207197. Are oil impregnated bushes that much better?

Item 7 here;

http://www.apriliagenuineparts.co.uk/parts.php?hdnComponentID=966






(http://www.apriliagenuineparts.co.uk/parts.php?hdnComponentID=966)