PDA

View Full Version : starting woes...



HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-18-2015, 09:17 AM
It's taken me nearly 5 months to get the capo to a nearly there state. Have just changed fuel tank refurbished the fuel lines inside tank new stanley fuel line upgrade. Fitted Mosfet rec so with the tank on and the re routed wiring in place I fired her up and bingo she did. As I ' d fitted new end cans I was just admiring the beautiful note when nothing and she died.....

my frustration is now there's nothing when I hit the start button. Am just now charging the battery but just wond er ing if something more sinister has happened... in the short term does anyone have any ideas????

I havent soldered the connectors on the re routerd wiring side just bwfore the stator as my idea was check all ok before hand. Have I majorly cocked up in doing so. Have checked fuses all seem fine....at a loss......

sloth
04-18-2015, 03:41 PM
Fuel delivery line popped off the quick connector? The same happened when I worked on ours recently. Although I think in that case the engine was turning over - it seems yours is not even doing that. Fuel pump wiring connection come off, maybe? Can you hear the pump prime when you switch the ignition on?

JohnG.
04-18-2015, 04:00 PM
Fuel delivery line popped off the quick connector? The same happened when I worked on ours recently. Although I think in that case the engine was turning over - it seems yours is not even doing that. Fuel pump wiring connection come off, maybe? Can you hear the pump prime when you switch the ignition on?

Ive had a male contact pin pull back in the connection to the fuel pump...

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-18-2015, 04:17 PM
I went back into the shed amd took off the starter relay. Read a thread about bridging the relay. DId this and she turned over but no fire. It's strange as when I turn on the ignition the priming sequence functions. HAve checked fuel lines and no obvious signs of uncoupling connectors. same again turns over until battery looses juice then press the button and nothing. HAve her on charge tonight to see if anything changes. Did notice ht leads we re a bit slack so maybe loose connection caused no fire ... so frustrating. ........

Nito
04-18-2015, 04:36 PM
I take it you do have enough fuel in?

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-18-2015, 04:41 PM
Yes at least two gallons... could there be air in the system? ???

Nito
04-18-2015, 04:54 PM
I doubt it unless there's a slit in your in tank hose. How old is the fuel? We have all sorts of probs starting the kids quads when the fuel is old. The less fuel there is the easier it can lose its octane. How confident are you in the in tank hose handywork, what hose clips did you use, is it possible that under pressure one of the hoses has blown off the filter or pump?

Nito
04-18-2015, 04:58 PM
When you say turns over until battery loses juice, do you mean it turns over trying to start, cranking until it loses juice or it actually runs normally but then cuts out and the battery is subsequently drained, in which case it'll be a charge issue likely rectifier/wiring problem.

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-18-2015, 05:08 PM
THe in tank hose work was done all as per stanleys guide in an earlier thread....hose clips were the stainless type as recomended by stanley... as its not firing then battery looses juice and no chance to gain charge .... suppose could be rectifier wiring problem as that was the main reason for trying her todsy to see what was going on at battery at 4k revs ....just didn't get chance ...

Matt fe2o3
04-19-2015, 04:37 AM
Harvey, I posted in another thread of an issue I had.

When working on checking my stator voltage (I moved my r/r wiring to run on left side of bike) I accidentally bumped off the crankshaft position sensor plug. It's right at the top of the stator case. It sits in a little spring held plug. In my case it unplugged but sat back into the recess of the plug (I am speaking of the connector dead center at the top of the stator case on left side). Crank away and no fire. When I figured it out I felt foolish, but it was I think the #2 thing to check per the workshop manual - I had already tried spark and had no go. upon re-plugging in, touch of the button and away she roared. Just FYI, as it is an easy thing to dislodge, especially with large hands.

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-19-2015, 06:54 AM
Thanks Matt.. will check. Had battery on charge all night. when I turn ignition on the priming sequence happens . It sounds like pissing in the tank. SO Ithought what Nito had suggested may have happened...so I popped up the tank and disconnected the quick connects as I did there was clear evidence of fuel in the lines... sonot convinced I need to pop off the pump housing. Anyhowm when I bridge thestarter relay she turns over qith what seems to be enough chargeto do the job. NOw I'm getting confused as I'm thinking is the no start o n button issue down to a duff relay or battery??? next step to inspect posi on both battery and startter motor....

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-19-2015, 09:43 AM
wow Nito 10/10 for diagnostics. took pump off tank and there it was moby dick blowing like a good one. blew straight off the top. so that explains the no fuel no fire.. when it ran yesterday and cut out would have been when she blew off...ok thats sorted just dreaded elecs still a mystery... suppose test battery first...

Nito
04-19-2015, 10:53 AM
Cool, glad that you're sorted. Was it the clamp that failed? Which hose, are you using, the bellowed one or an alternative? Well done on getting it sorted so quickly.

cheers
Nito

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-19-2015, 11:25 AM
I'd used some submersible hose and a non std filter. I hadto wait for the flexy hose from taly which I now have. the filter was metal and slightly taller than stock... the clamp was a 14mm and I'd tightened to the end. will ord er cstock filter and install with the newly aquir ed stock pipe... lesson learnt..
.

Nito
04-19-2015, 01:13 PM
What kind of clamp are you using, I use Oetikers for this type of thing, are you using a wormdrive type screw clamp, this shouldn't be used on fuel fittings?!

Regards
Nito

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-19-2015, 01:55 PM
I used the fuel line clamps with screw and nut. Then applied locktite 577.. When I stripped the pump the previous had used worm drive and to be honest they weren't wound that tight...amazing they hadn't blown off before. Do you think with the OEM FUEL PIPE these will be ok for the second attempt... Will check Stanleys Thread as he showed some pretty decent photos of how to...

Nito
04-20-2015, 02:47 AM
Interesting little article here on worm drive, they shouldn't be done up tight!
http://www.croberts.com/clamp.htm

I personally wouldn't be inclined to re-use the screw and nut spring clamps on a different hose. If it were the same hose fine but for what they cost I'd be inclined to use a fresh one as the OE hose is probably a slightly different diameter etc, but that's just me, it's a ball ache to remove the tank etc so I'd be quite anal about it I think! I haven't had to go into mine yet but my fuel sender only works intermittently so the time will come!

Cheers
Nito

Rickyevans
04-26-2015, 03:02 PM
Ive had a male contact pin pull back in the connection to the fuel pump...
Time you just saved john

Stanleybobly
04-27-2015, 03:30 AM
Use a efi clamp
Hose from Gates submersible version.
Do not overtighten it. Little by little tighten the screw untill you can't turn the hose by hand-finger
Thats all.

Or use earclamps (oetiker) as mentioned before.

Me thinks metal feul.filter slips off the hose easily. Use the oem filter or fiat uno i.e. carfilter from.bosch

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-27-2015, 04:50 AM
exactly stanley. have used oem pipe and punto filter now rebuilt and back in tank . all good now pump working fine. Just the starting glitch which I will be back to ask advice later.....

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-27-2015, 02:24 PM
Help help help.....
I'M a tad frustrated with the Capo. on Saturday I put o the new starter relay pressed the button and fi r st a click. then on the second press she fired. Kept up her running for 10 mins. measured the voltages and got 13.96 at idle and 14.30 at 4000 revs. Stopped the bike and pressed again and full start. DId this all day no probs for about 6/7 times. So finished off soldering the 3 yellows ad I, d done the left to right wire re route. Ok so life was good and the capo is ok. Went to bed happy. should mention at the point of first button press the battery was fully charged and reading 12.8v.

So Sunday popped in the shed and pressed the button and she fired... stopped her and then 5 mins later pres ed again. Click again click... no fire. couldd hear the relay clicking but no start.. so checked the positive on the start er motor . COvered in corrosion. Took off connector and fully cleaned to exposed fresh metal put back still click click click. SO pulled batt er y out and connected up car battery with car not running. still a click and nothing else. checked fuses and dor some reason one 30 amp had gone so replaced. Still click click. Tok off starter relay and checked reistance between terminals whe fed with 12v measured 0 which is what manual suggests.

So pretty dam frustrated. Tomorrow am going to get new battery as am thinking maybe a cel has gone and maybe it just doesn't have the juice when required to crank....

Can anyone advise if they have any ideas.......I have fitted an fh oo14 and ran 3 new a ire to the rectifier and then pos to pos on battery via 30 amp fuse and negative to battery earth. left yellow harness in with both browns on and filled with silicone. white connector left on and filled.

haga lout
04-27-2015, 02:39 PM
Watfords not to far from you and saves you getting strest

Rickyevans
04-27-2015, 02:59 PM
Filled with silicone, ummmm. Please do explain

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-27-2015, 03:03 PM
the brown connectors one at the rectifier the other down by the engine which are borh redundant as this part of the harness haz been bipassed. filled up with clear silicone....

Rickyevans
04-27-2015, 03:08 PM
Ok cool, thought maybe you had tried sealing with silicone to waterproof. My bad, cut the browns and pull them cables out . Could prove very confusing if you send it to a garage or ever sell it on

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-27-2015, 03:21 PM
AS per stanleys rectifier install guide the redblack and redblue wires 2 of each which are in the white connector block remain correct?? should these be cut and heat shrink wrapped?????

Precis
04-27-2015, 06:19 PM
AS per stanleys rectifier install guide the redblack and redblue wires 2 of each which are in the white connector block remain correct?? should these be cut and heat shrink wrapped?????

That's what I did.
But you started the bike on the bench what? Seven, eight times? (It's a bit hard to decipher your post with all the typos) If so, I'd say you've merely run the battery flat, without giving it a good long ride to recharge.
Have you installed an extra earth? Did you check for the corrosion on the bike multi-earth junction down on the left side? About 7 earth cables join there and it's a low point in the harness, so some Brit-bikes cop a bit of corrsion inside the loom.

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-28-2015, 12:07 AM
no didn't check the multi earth. Can you guide me to where this is in relation to the bike. Would I have to pop the tank off again...?? when you say run an extra earth do you mean another from the battery to the frame/ engine.I have already ran the neg from the rectifier to the battery neg....

Stanleybobly
04-28-2015, 01:04 AM
Put a screwdriver on the starter relay

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-28-2015, 03:43 AM
if I do and she cranks in my mind this means the relay has fried.. this was brand new. if so ist it inferior quality or is there something happening in the system. ..

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-28-2015, 02:30 PM
if I do and she cranks in my mind this means the relay has fried.. this was brand new. if so ist it inferior quality or is there something happening in the system. ..
Update . Fitted battery and still a clicking relay. ran a jump cable from the battery positive to the starter motor and she cranked so therefore the starter motor is ok. So I guess that leaves the relay as the problem.

Could a bad earth still be the cause??

Precis
04-28-2015, 05:55 PM
Not if you only bypassed the relay and its positive cables.
If just that gave a suitable result, all else must be well.
But just to confuse things - are your switches & the connectors to them all clean & working fine?

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-29-2015, 12:57 AM
took the right hand cluster apart and all seems in order. start button is making contact ans as relay is clicking presumably doing it's job. what other switches should I check???

CapCal1000
04-29-2015, 05:07 AM
It also happens sometimes that if you attempted to start the bike on a dying battery, it can burn up the contacts on the starter relay. I've killed more than one that way. The relay works, clicks etc... but the contacts have been ruined.
1. Take a screwdriver or pliers and bridge the contacts of the relay. If the starter runs from that, but not when you push the start button, you probably need a new relay. I use oversized ford relays from the autoparts store. If the battery is low they just won't work, instead of melting down or welding itself closed on a flat battery.

HARVEY MUSHMAN
04-29-2015, 06:56 AM
yes have spoken to the supplier and he is sending me a replacement relay....reckon when that's installed and with a new battery it should fire..I know there is a yamaha relay which people recomend. Would welcome any advice on others as the thought of one going when out on the road is pretty frightening. ....van you recomend any...

Stanleybobly
04-29-2015, 04:38 PM
Aprilia (upgraded) relay is the same yamaha relay
Nowerdays even cheaper than the yamaha one.

HARVEY MUSHMAN
05-03-2015, 07:52 AM
ok so yamaha relay fitted and with fully charged battery she fired intolife. SO was checking voltages at battery and at first was getting 13.9 atidle and 14.2 at 4k. after 5 mins running they started to drop... dissapointing.....tosaythe least.. so monitored it and it kept dropping. FUnny though as there was definitely heat occuring in the newly I stalled rr. After a while voltages down to 12.2 and then the dreaded... no crank..

So off with the rec and a diode test which revealed all ok.

As my new wiring was to suit an fh014. I'm thinking that's where the problem lies...have ordered all the necessary pre made wiring and connectors so I can try a new fh 012 which I aquired. I have stripped back to the 3 wires coming out of the stator sohere' where I need guidance....

IF the problem lies with the stator is there a testI can do without taking off the cover / stator to see ...

Am getting a bit lost with this now and am desperate to get this beast on the road....

nerald
05-03-2015, 09:26 AM
If you still have the brown connectors check what voltage you are getting from the stator at the connector nearest to the reg/rec. Should be about 60 volts AC across any pair of yellow wires. Check all combinations to make sure you haven't lost a coil. Also you can check the resistance across each pair of yellow wires, these should be roughly equal. Then check resistance of the yellows to earth - should be megohms or open circuit.

HARVEY MUSHMAN
05-03-2015, 09:49 AM
If you still have the brown connectors check what voltage you are getting from the stator at the connector nearest to the reg/rec. Should be about 60 volts AC across any pair of yellow wires. Check all combinations to make sure you haven't lost a coil. Also you can check the resistance across each pair of yellow wires, these should be roughly equal. Then check resistance of the yellows to earth - should be megohms or open circuit.
That's the thing. I had already snipped off the brown connectors when I wired in the FH0014 RR. So currently I have the 3 wires intending to do the same when the wiring kit arrives from Eastern Beaver.

Obviously wanting to be sure the Stator isn't US before wiring in the FH 0012.

Can the wires be tested for voltage????

Is it relatively easy to remove the stator casing and inspect.

nerald
05-03-2015, 10:05 AM
If you can get at your new connections just check there. A photo of what you have done would also help.

HARVEY MUSHMAN
05-03-2015, 10:14 AM
If you can get at your new connections just check there. A photo of what you have done would also help.
Just put ohms test and all ok. To ground test also.

Put red and black onto the bear yellow wires and got AC voltage of 28-29 on all 3.

Does that suggest problem with stator???

deefred
05-03-2015, 10:39 AM
The more than 70VAC is only valid @ 4000rpm.
At idle it will be much lower.

nerald
05-03-2015, 11:23 AM
As Deefred said. Voltage will increase with revs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v2LtHlvcqI

HARVEY MUSHMAN
05-03-2015, 11:59 AM
yes as discovered at 4k getting 65 - 70 Ac on all 3 . GUess that is pretty normal?? will wait until eastern beaver sends wiring kit and go back to basics...

Precis
05-04-2015, 06:56 AM
Did you replace BOTH brown connectors?

HARVEY MUSHMAN
05-04-2015, 03:32 PM
Did you replace BOTH brown connectors?
Yes. Disconnected the one at the front and the one which connects to the old OEM rectifier.

Now have 3 yellows from the stat waiting to re route from the left hand side to the right when I get the Eastern Beaver wiring kit.