PDA

View Full Version : Be Careful with Water Wetter



amauri
10-31-2011, 12:08 PM
Bellow is some photos of a SXV450 motor I split open this weekend.

It came out of a track bike that has been running Water Wetter since day one and has logged a total of 35 hours on the meter.

The owner reported water mixing with the crankcase oil, he first noticed it when he saw a milky froth inside the oil tank filler cap.

The first photo shows the crankcase half where you can see how close together the coolant and oil passages are to each other.
The second photo shows a close-up of the corrosion that started in the cyl water jacket, ate through the mating surface and all the way across towards the oil passage.

I never see this kind of damage on motors that run the recommended Ethylene Glycol coolant.

If you're going to run Water Wetter, Maxima Cool Aide or any non greassy type coolant, make sure you flush it often and if the bike is going sit for any extended time, refiil with normal coolant.

jay dub
10-31-2011, 12:22 PM
Do you think excessive engine temp might have helped contribute to the speedy corrosion Amauri, and is there any damage to the other water jacket?

Thanks for bringing up this topic. The water wetter use on the track has always been a worry for me.

Keehr
10-31-2011, 01:00 PM
Thanks for the warning!

Teacher
10-31-2011, 03:02 PM
"The second photo shows a close-up of the corrosion that started in the cyl water jacket, ate through the mating surface and all the way across towards the oil passage"

This is an example of what is know as crevise corrosion. Happens when water (with or without water weter) sits stagnite for a length of time in a small confined gap (as in storage). If this concerns you, imagine what it is doing to the radiator.

As Amauri stated do not store with just water. In addition to ethylene glycol based coolant you can also use propylene glycol based coolants such as Sierra.

jay dub
10-31-2011, 03:20 PM
"The second photo shows a close-up of the corrosion that started in the cyl water jacket, ate through the mating surface and all the way across towards the oil passage"

This is an example of what is know as crevise corrosion. Happens when water (with or without water weter) sits stagnite for a length of time in a small confined gap (as in storage).

I was under the impression that the bike was used quite frequently, and maintained well despite the decision to leave water wetter in it 24/7.

zvez
10-31-2011, 03:23 PM
Water wetter doesn't have any corrosion inhibitors, so not surprising to see this in a bike, I'm thinking it's the lack of corrosion inhibitors and not the water wetter itself.

Chris

zvez
10-31-2011, 03:25 PM
What are the downsides of using propylene glycol (sierra?) Is this fluid allowed for track days?

Chris


"The second photo shows a close-up of the corrosion that started in the cyl water jacket, ate through the mating surface and all the way across towards the oil passage"

This is an example of what is know as crevise corrosion. Happens when water (with or without water weter) sits stagnite for a length of time in a small confined gap (as in storage). If this concerns you, imagine what it is doing to the radiator.

As Amauri stated do not store with just water. In addition to ethylene glycol based coolant you can also use propylene glycol based coolants such as Sierra.

amauri
10-31-2011, 03:47 PM
I was under the impression that the bike was used quite frequently, and maintained well despite the decision to leave water wetter in it 24/7.

The bike did sit unused for a few months, between track days.

I dind't mean to single out water wetter as the cause of this corrosion, as stated, it was caused the lack of corrosion inhibitors.

What gets me is that the mfg of watter wetter claims that it does reduce rust, corrosion and electrolysis, see link:
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10

jay dub
10-31-2011, 04:15 PM
What gets me is that the mfg of watter wetter claims that it does reduce rust, corrosion and electrolysis

"Red Line also provides excellent protection from cavitation erosion in the water pump and cylinder head. Localized boiling in the cylinder head forms vapor bubbles which collapse when they come in contact with cooler liquids. This collapse creates tremendous shock waves which removes the inhibitor film from the aluminum surface and can cause catastrophic erosion of the aluminum if the inhibitor does not reform the film quickly. Another problem created by cavitation erosion is the deposition of the removed aluminum as a salt with poor heat transfer properties in the lower temperature radiator tubes. Red Line prevents this corrosion through effective film formation and smaller vapor bubble formation, which has a less violent collapse. Foam control is equally important since entrained air will cause cavitation erosion due to the collapse of foam bubbles. Red Line provides excellent control of foam with water alone and glycol solutions."

"Red Line WaterWetter® does not significantly increase the boiling point of water; however, increasing pressure will raise the boiling point. The boiling point of water treated with Red Line using a 15 psi cap is 250°F compared to 265°F at 15 psi for 50% glycol. Increasing the pressure by 50% to 23 psi will increase the boiling point of water to 265°F. Because of the doubling of the ability of the radiator to transfer heat, boilover using Red Line treated water is not a problem as long as the engine is circulating coolant through the head and the fan is circulating air. Sudden shutdown after very hard driving may cause boilover."

I know are motors don't get that hot, but we definitely ride em hard, and put em away wet. Especially in So Cal during the summer. haha

SXV550 n SXR800
10-31-2011, 07:39 PM
Is a propylene glycol safe for these engines since it is phosphate free and corrosion inhibitors (Sierra, Engine Ice, LP Racing Coolant)? Is there any advantage on these engines to us e the propylene over ethylene?

qkenuf4u
11-01-2011, 10:39 PM
When Ron Davis, of radiator fame, recommends only WaterWetter and Distilled water...unless it's below freezing, then standard Prestone at the minimum percentage for the temp...that says a lot

WW w/ DISTILLED water for the last couple years in my ZRX and not one sign of corrision/rust/etc. ...... IMHO it had nothing to do with the WW and sitting around..... you know ,being the EXPERT on these engines, about the sealant problem they have......

jay dub
11-01-2011, 11:55 PM
If WW started eating up motors, they wouldn't be in business for very long at all. My ASSUMPTION for the damage is due to excessive heat. Lots of variables in this situatiion though. I've always felt unsure about using the product in my bikes to be honest. I guess that's why I'm intrigued about this topic. Did he have a temp guage on the bike?

amauri
11-02-2011, 01:03 AM
No signs of overheating and the ECU did not have any previous temp errors logged in memory.
This motor ran perfectly before I pulled it, started easily and had lots of power.

FORZA
11-02-2011, 02:25 AM
What did the timing shaft look like???
I have seen heaps of those look rooted running water only. If its ok maybe the Water Wetter is not the reason????

qkenuf4u
11-02-2011, 09:00 AM
I have seen heaps of those look rooted running water only.

DISTILLED or TAP water is another question ??

and i want to clarify that im not saying that im the only one in the world to never have a problem w/ WW... i posted this on the zrxoa board since there was another vid out there claiming the same thing (car engine) and we had a good discussion about it that time too....

zvez
11-02-2011, 09:49 AM
I don't think anyone thinks water wetter is the problem, the problem is without anti-freeze, their's no corrosion protection. Curious as to the difference hard or soft water makes?

Chris


DISTILLED or TAP water is another question ??

and i want to clarify that im not saying that im the only one in the world to never had a problem w/ WW... i posted this on the zrxoa board since there was another vid out there claiming the same thing (car engine) and we had a good discussion about it that time too....

amauri
11-02-2011, 09:53 AM
What did the timing shaft look like???
I have seen heaps of those look rooted running water only. If its ok maybe the Water Wetter is not the reason????

The threaded end of the timing shaft was rusty and the water pump seal had failed, causing water to leak into the primary gears & transmission.

usherp_250
11-02-2011, 09:55 AM
Curious as to the difference hard or soft water makes?
Chris

shouldn't distilled water be used to combat hard/soft water properties!!

amauri
11-02-2011, 09:57 AM
Curious as to the difference hard or soft water makes?

Tap water vs. distilled water is definitely a consideration.

Regular tap water can have chlorine and minerals that is not good for aluminum cooling system parts. Always use distilled or ionized water.

usherp_250
11-02-2011, 09:58 AM
Always use distilled or ionized water.


:plus:

kick6
11-02-2011, 10:39 AM
Tap water vs. distilled water is definitely a consideration.

Regular tap water can have chlorine and minerals that is not good for aluminum cooling system parts. Always use distilled or ionized water.

ionized or DEionized water?

usherp_250
11-02-2011, 10:49 AM
ionized or DEionized water?

de-ionised or
distilled

amauri
11-02-2011, 10:49 AM
right you are

Eckl
11-07-2011, 09:48 PM
Anything to comment on the similar product Engine Ice?