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zuman
05-29-2009, 06:34 AM
I have 630 miles on my Mana, and I can't get in for its first service appointment until June 11. And that appointment's 135 miles away.
So do I ride during the next two weeks of glorious weather and go in with 1,000 miles on the clock or do I just look at it in the garage and arrive at the service with about 735 miles?
Have I blown the warranty already?
The bike has no issues. No oil leaks, no electrical or electronic gremlins.

pete roper
05-29-2009, 07:41 AM
Drop the oil. Refill, (Replace the o-ring on the plug.) go ride. Remember that the engine is a dry sump so you fill to the 'Full' mark on the stick. Run it for a couple of minutes and then top it up to the full mark on the stick again. Repeat after 10 minutes and you're done.

Pete

jsherm01
05-29-2009, 10:25 AM
Our Mana has not been back to the dealer since we bought it. Change the oil and you are done.

SilverFoxUno
05-29-2009, 01:32 PM
Regardless of what others may say, an oil change is not required at 600 miles - mine, at just under 6000 miles, has not had the oil changed. Take a look at the owner's manual - it lists what should be done. Why waist your time and money? Just ride...

pete roper
05-29-2009, 05:35 PM
Regardless of what others may say, an oil change is not required at 600 miles - mine, at just under 6000 miles, has not had the oil changed. Take a look at the owner's manual - it lists what should be done. Why waist your time and money? Just ride...

You're probably right but I always change the oil at the 800Km or so point as by that time the rings will of bedded in well and blow-by and resultant contamination of the oil should of pretty much stopped. Yes I know Nicasil is a really good sealer and it's probably overkill but oil is cheaper than engine strips.

Pete

mah
05-29-2009, 07:22 PM
The manual is not too clear on the oil change. I know the bike need to be on the flat surface, but do I perform the oil change/level check with the bike on the side stand or it needs to be on a bike stand? The sight glass under the dip stick is at perfect view angle when the bike is on the side stand.

SilverFoxUno
05-29-2009, 07:59 PM
You're probably right but I always change the oil at the 800Km or so point as by that time the rings will of bedded in well and blow-by and resultant contamination of the oil should of pretty much stopped. Yes I know Nicasil is a really good sealer and it's probably overkill but oil is cheaper than engine strips.

Pete

You're right, Pete - a little oil and a filter is far less expensive than fixing the engine; however, following the recommended maintenance "should" be sufficient...and the warranty will not be affected.

Like the choice of which oil to use...frequency of changes is (somewhat) a personal preference.

Jim web
05-30-2009, 03:28 PM
Mah the bike need's to be level when you check the oil with the sight glass. It need's to be on the bike stand to get an accurate reading

pete roper
05-30-2009, 07:19 PM
Mah the bike need's to be level when you check the oil with the sight glass. It need's to be on the bike stand to get an accurate reading

The engine is a dry sump design. The main reason for the sight glass is to allow you to check that the oil hasn't all bled back into the sump, hence the o-ring on the drain plug to seal the oil tank.

There is oil in the bottom of the engine, it's there to lubricate the gears of the secondary drive and it's bearings but the majority of the oil SHOULD be in the tank. All the important engine bearings are fed from the tank. The issue is if the o-ring on the drain plug is omitted ar if it fails during installation then the oil from the tank drains into the sump. If this has occured when you start the motor the oil has to be scavenged from the sump back to the tank before it can start being fed to the important bearings, this can take anything up to 20 seconds, plenty of time for serious damage to the plain bearings of the crank and cams to occur.

So, make sure the oil is up to the full mark or slightly above after the oil has been drained. Then run the engine for a couple of minutes and check again and top up as neccessary. Then go for a ride and re-check when you get back. Where the oil is in the sight glass is pretty much irrelevant. Ican't honestly see much point to it apart from the fact that most bikes have one nowadays and some owners might worry if there wasn't one. If the scavenge pump stopped working for some reason the engine would seize in seconds after the tank had been emptied.

Pete

tha-mask
06-01-2009, 06:57 AM
Pete.

I take it to read it properly you have to screw the dipstick in fully and then out again to get the correct reading. Also do you need to ride the bike or is idling it for a few minutes sufficient when you top it up. Also without a center stand I find I have to sit on the bike to keep it level and pull out the dipstick that way to read it accurately.

I have always been wary of the oil level in my Mana, not sure if anyone else gets it, but after both services at 6000 and 12000 and 600 actually I get the oil light message flash up with the warning light if I accelerate hard sometimes from standstill. Had it in at the dealer to check, they even replaced the oil sensor, but they just put it down to perhaps the design of the engine and the placement of the sensor being overly fussy.

Jim web
06-01-2009, 02:15 PM
No Pete i never got the oil light message that's a new one

shadyman
06-01-2009, 03:53 PM
I changed oil on mine at 600 mi. Nothing flushes out dirt & metal particles like an oil change. After that I follow the manual. Have done it on all my vehicles, not just bikes. Most have seen well over 200k, some over 300k. Oil & filters are cheap, why not change them.

pete roper
06-01-2009, 05:36 PM
Pete.

I take it to read it properly you have to screw the dipstick in fully and then out again to get the correct reading. Also do you need to ride the bike or is idling it for a few minutes sufficient when you top it up. Also without a center stand I find I have to sit on the bike to keep it level and pull out the dipstick that way to read it accurately.




I just rest it on the threads after running the engine for a couple of minutes. whether this is the 'Correct' way I don't know but even if its wrong all it will mean is that the tank is a little bit over full, there won't be so much in there that it will fill up to the point it will try to over flow. The important thing is for the tank not to have too little oil in because if it does there is the potential for the pick-up to be exposed under certain conditions, (Usually heavy accelleration or braking.) and if the pick-up is exposed the pump can't deliver oil to the bearings and plain bearings suffer damage IMMEDIATELY oil is withrawn from them, not after a couple of minutes, only a few seconds is enough to start rapid deterioration. Once damage occurs it is much harder for the oil to form the protective hydrodynamic wedge between the bearing and the journal and cumulative deterioration will be rapid. You gotta keep oil, at pressure, going to those bearings, or else!!

Pete

tha-mask
06-02-2009, 07:18 AM
Pete.

OK forgive me for being ignorant here, but I always thought too much oil was a bad thing...However are you saying that dry sump systems are slightly different.

I'm struggling to find out what might be he right level here. The dipstick only has a MIN level as the book says you read the sight glass for the MAX level.

If I read the level after the bike has been stading all day it was below the min, if after riding I read it, after several minutes the level can read alomost half way up the dipstick, but screwed in all the way.

Sorry if I'm labouring the point, just trying to be absolute on the right method and level of oil as I have always had this intermittent oil light at harsh unless I top it up with oil, which makes me think that its not being filled up enough.

Jim web
06-02-2009, 05:20 PM
I agree with shadyman nothing like a good oil change and filter.

pete roper
06-03-2009, 02:34 AM
Pete.

OK forgive me for being ignorant here, but I always thought too much oil was a bad thing...However are you saying that dry sump systems are slightly different.



Yes, they are.

With a dry sump system the vast majority of the oil lives in a separate tank. In the Mana though this 'Tank' is incorporated within the crankcase but is separate from all the whirly-whirly bits.

Oil is taken from the tank and delivered by a pump to the bearings that the various shafts run in, there may also be a delivery to the shafts that carry the secondary gears in the transmission I can't remember but the fact is immaterial. After it has done its job of lubricating and cooling the various whirly-whirly bits it runs down into the bottom of the crankcase where it is picked up by another oil pump called the 'Scavenge' pump and returned to the tank.

The scavenge pump always has a slightly larger flow rate than the delivery pump so that it is always trying to return more to the tank than is being taken out and delivered to the whirly-whirly bits. This ensures that the crankcase and sump can't fill up because if this happens all sorts of nasty things occur, the crankcase will pressurise and seals will blow as well as power being robbed because various parts will be trying to spin in oil rather than air with droplets of oil in it.

With the Mana engine though you drain both the oil from the tank and the residual oil that will drain down to the sump after the engine is turned off by removing the one plug in the bottom of the sump. On that plug you will see there is an o-ring. This ring is there to sealk the plug where the end of it goes into the wall of the 'Tank' within the crankcase. If it is missing or damaged there is a risk that when the bike is parked, especially if it is parked for an extended period, the oil will drain down from the tank into the crankcase. If that happens not only do you get the problem of the crankcase pressurising as the pistons try to work. Remember that the swept volume of the cylinders is exactly the same beneath the pistons as it is above them. On a 90 degree twin the difference between maximum crankcase volume and minimum crankcase volume is *about* 60% of the total swept volume of the motor so with an 850cc twin you're looking at about a 600cc difference in volume of the case between its maximim and minimum volume. Air/gas in the crankcase is compressible, oil being a liquid is not, (To all intents and purposes.) so if the sump over fills through drain down or insufficient scavenge the oil will be expelled somewhere, either through the breather system or past seals! Also if the tank is allowed to drain down it means that on start up there will not be any oil in the tank to deliver to the bearings and as previously discussed this is NOT something you want to happen, even for a very short period of time.

As long as the tank is sealed adequately though so it can't drain back to the sump and the scavenge pump is working correctly the amount of oil left in the sump, viewed through the sightglass, is unimportant. What IS important is that there is sufficient in the tank to be delivered to the bearings.

When you remove the plug you drain both the residual oil in the sump AND the tank. So when you initially refill it what you are doing is refilling the TANK but the sump is still dry. When you run the engine for a couple of minutes the oil is taken from the tank and some of it will end up in the sump for the lubrication of the secondary drive gears and waiting to be scavenged back to the sump so when you turn the motor off the level in the tank will of dropped by that amount. I honestly can't tell you approximately how much that is because I've never measured it but I just top it up again so that the dipstick, which measures the oil level/quantity in the TANK shows a bit above the ring on the stick when it is sitting on the threads. This still leaves ample room within the tank for extra oil if I misjudge it so it won't try and force itself out of the tank breather or filler through over-filling and the exact quantity in the tank is unimportant. You could, if you wished have a separate tank on a trailer you towed behind you with 30 gallons in it for all it matters as long as you could get oil delivered from it to the delivery pump and then from the sump, scavenge it back to the tank! 250-400ml one way or the other is NOT critical but allowing too much drain back by a faulty o-ring or simply having insufficient in there will cause problems.

As I said. Drain, replace o-ring and re-install plug. Fill tank to 'Full' mark on dipstick with stick resting on threads. Screw stick in, run engine for a couple of minutes. Check again and re-fill to full to account for the oil that is now in the sump. Go ride. If you're paranoid? Check it again when you get back from your ride. Don't get all anal over the sight glass. It really tells you bugger-all. The tank level is the important one.

Next time you go out for a ride check the tank level with the dipstick to make sure it is still where it was. If it has dropped appreciably it will be because the oil must be draining past the o-ring into the sump and that it IS important to keep an eye on. Having said that, I've done several oil changes on my munter, sorry, Mana and its oil levels remain obstinately correct!:p:

Pete

tha-mask
06-03-2009, 10:41 AM
Wow, thanks for that detailed explanation. I can see now the need for the tank to keep a good level to feed the bike on startup. You did however (and dont hate me for it) mention the MAX or FULL mark on the dipstick. I dont have this only a MIN mark, have a picture below of the dipstick, is it the same as yours, where do you read yours as full on it ? The small mark close to the bottom is the MIN level. Since I parked mine this morning about 7 hours have elapsed and with the dipstick resting on the thread shows just on the MIN level without having started the engine. Just after it has been ridden does show much higher. Does this mean perhaps that the oil seal is letting some through whilst at rest during the day ??

Just trying to make sure that my pride and joy is well cared for !

pete roper
06-03-2009, 01:00 PM
Same stick. I'd always assumed that the bottom mark was the minimum and the bottom of the wider strip about an inch above it was the 'Full' mark.

If the level is dropping appreciably during the day while it is just sitting It would suggest to me that oil is draining down from the tank to the sump. BUT before you panic I suggest that you do a check several times over different periods of time. it MAY just be that the oil in the tank is de-aerating as it sits and once the bubbles in the oil are all gone the oil level drops consistently to the same level indicating no drain-down.

I know I bang on about it but that o-ring on the drain plug IS important, especially on bikes that will sit idle for periods of time. Much ado was made about replacing it when I attended the workshop training course and it IS a viton ring rather than a nitrile one, viton being a lot more heat resistant and much more expensive than nitrile they obviously use it for a reason!

Pete

shandog1717
06-03-2009, 06:46 PM
hi, my mana is coming up on a oil change soon. the book is not that clear on changing the oil. where is the drain for it to come out? is it directly underneath the bike? thanks for any help

SilverFoxUno
06-03-2009, 07:37 PM
hi, my mana is coming up on a oil change soon. the book is not that clear on changing the oil. where is the drain for it to come out? is it directly underneath the bike? thanks for any help

Why, yes...yes it is...

Lay on your back with your head under the right side of the bike...you'll see it.

tha-mask
06-04-2009, 04:15 AM
Thanks for all your help pete, very useful. :-)

pete roper
06-04-2009, 07:07 AM
Thanks for all your help pete, very useful. :-)


None of this shit is 'Magic'. Try to look at things logically and understand a sequence of 'Why' and 'How'. No, 'Owners' are no more expected to be 'Mechanics' than I, as a mechanic, am expected to be an 'Engineer' but thinking about and trying to understand how your machine works will not only greatly enhance your riding pleasure but it will enable you to explain more fully to your mechanic what the symptoms are enabling him or her to make quicker and more accurate decisions and therefore saving you MONEY!

I used to work at a shop in London and although I was workshop I sometimes had to answer the phone. We quite often had people say "My Motorbike is making a funny noise....." I used to have a series of glass jars on the counter with nuts and bolts in and I'd just shake 'em and say "Does it sound like this?":cathat: It REALLY helps if people have a bit of a clue above and beyond it has a wheel at each end, handlebars and a bit that makes a noise in the middle!

Pete

mitchmike
06-04-2009, 08:46 AM
Pete, some of the detail in your description may have some bearing on what is happenning with my mana and a few others in my post (as below) in how the oil is being expelled past the seals, I really would appreciate your thoughts on what you think could be happenning with my bike.


Warning Mana Owners!! Oil leaking out of crancase weep hole!!

tha-mask
06-04-2009, 09:57 AM
Pete

Completely agree, hence my exhaustive questions to be absolutely sure on the detail. Thanks again.

pete roper
06-04-2009, 03:14 PM
Sorry guys, I haven't been following that thread. I'll see if I can get a bit of time to look at it again but I'm flying to the US today so it'll be some time.