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5axis
01-28-2009, 06:48 AM
Hey AF1 guys, where does the 125 fit in the pecking order?

typical honda RS125gp>moriwaki>ape rs125?

Can the ape be reasonably tuned enough to hang with the moriwaki?

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=200895

:cheers:

gsaltus
01-28-2009, 09:21 AM
Hey AF1 guys, where does the 125 fit in the pecking order?

typical honda RS125gp>moriwaki>ape rs125?

Can the ape be reasonably tuned enough to hang with the moriwaki?

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=200895

:cheers:

No moriwaki is design to compete against the GP 125 bikes. I have seen the Aprilia RS125 try to race against GP125s and need less to say it got beaten badly. Thats why Aprilia has the RSW125 a true GP bike.

ThisEndUp
01-28-2009, 09:57 AM
Can't compare a race bike against a street bike.

Apples to Oranges.

5axis
01-31-2009, 01:19 AM
Can't compare a race bike against a street bike.

Apples to Oranges.
Agreed but that is not what I was asking.
I know there was a tuned to edge RS250 cup bike that was able to hang with
some TZ250s in the USGPRU a few years ago. Could the little 125 be tuned enough to do the same in the 125 world? Do aftermarket or kit parts even exist for it?

ThisEndUp
01-31-2009, 06:34 PM
Agreed but that is not what I was asking.
I know there was a tuned to edge RS250 cup bike that was able to hang with
some TZ250s in the USGPRU a few years ago. Could the little 125 be tuned enough to do the same in the 125 world? Do aftermarket or kit parts even exist for it?

There's a shop in the UK http://www.jktuning.co.uk/ that tunes these little bikes to 35 hp to the ground (Opening up a Dyno debate now..:rolleyes:)

Still.....it's around 100 lbs heavier than a Honda RS125 (that's pretty wild, eh?)..
and still down 15-20 hp at the wheel (stock Ape).



I didn't read all those posts on that link you sent. 'Goes on for a while....and a few of those guys were pretty overheated about the topic...
The Moriwaki is $12,000 . The Aprilia RS125 $6000.......those guys seem to say it is about equal in performance. Geez, $2000 more than the Moriwaki will get you an '08 Honda Rs125 proper GP bike.



.
Could the Ape RS hang with 125 GP bikes? Probably only if the Ape rider was more skilled.

Anyone here own a Honda RS125? Meet me at NJMSP on 4/25...we'll find out.


Dave, are you in the market for a 125 (or Moriwaki) ?

5axis
02-01-2009, 07:26 AM
Dave, are you in the market for a 125 (or Moriwaki) ?

nah.. I'm a 25fiddy guy. On my cup bike I can beat up on a few diesels. I think if I had a TZ or RS I could make a lot of 600 riders cry. And I still have a lot to learn from the lowly cup bike LOL. When I ride my mille I usually kill other riders in corner speed (entry, I have no clue how to drive out)

ps. I did ride a Honda RS 250 and it was silly how much harder it pulled and how supple, yet locked on rails it felt visa-V my own cup bike.

Gluge
02-03-2009, 09:40 PM
nah.. I'm a 25fiddy guy. On my cup bike I can beat up on a few diesels.

Racing or just track days? Big difference really. SV650's are about as fast a diesel as I've ever seen one beat in actual racing.

From racing times, etc. this is how it breaks down -

250GP bike > 125GP bike => Moriwaki > Ape 250 > Ape 125

The 250GP bikes are about on par with the 600 sportbikes. However with a really good rider (say.. rich Oliver) they can run with the 1000's. Rich entered his TZ250 in the Toyota 200 a couple times, always pulled out due to mechanical, but if you look at his lap times he's like 3rd fastest or so, and that's in a race with 20 or so 1000cc Super bikes, some ridden by WSBK riders. But he's REALLY fast on a 250.

In stock form an Ape 125 is going to be slower than a Ninja 250 I expect. I'm surprised they're starting a stock racing series around Ape 125s. I feel there are better alternatives.

motopix
02-04-2009, 06:29 AM
With equal riders I don't think 250GPs have been on par with modern 600s for a couple/few years. But I do agree with your 2 stroke break down.

ThisEndUp
02-04-2009, 11:09 AM
In stock form an Ape 125 is going to be slower than a Ninja 250 I expect. I'm surprised they're starting a stock racing series around Ape 125s. I feel there are better alternatives.

I don't know.......The ninja has the same power but is almost 100lbs heavier.

Actually, now that I researched it a tad....quarter mile times are the same 14.2 -14.5

nubus
02-04-2009, 04:29 PM
Yes but corner speed of a Ninja 250 vs. an RS125.
I think the Ape would prevail in that battle.

johnson05
02-04-2009, 05:30 PM
Its always difficult when you talk about street bikes on the track. When you get a true GP bike thats it. No mods required. If you look at the Aprilia RS125 cup bikes of the UK and the rest of Europe those are a lot closer to the Mori. Make no mistake though, $6000 for an Aprilia 125 plus $6000 in mods will not get you a bike as fast as a true 125GP bike.

Gluge
02-04-2009, 07:02 PM
I don't know.......The ninja has the same power but is almost 100lbs heavier.

Actually, now that I researched it a tad....quarter mile times are the same 14.2 -14.5

I think the ninja has a bit more power actually. Also no idea where your getting your weights from - Ninja 250 weights 340lbs (weighed), Ape RS125 weights ~300 wet (claimed)

I'm still fuzzy on what the ape RS125 actually makes power wise. Aprilia had one out at willow running laps at a test day I was at, I asked them about it and they said 27 with some adjustments. I believe ninja 250's with exhaust and tuned are around 32 at the wheel. I've weighed a buddies ninja 250 and it's right around 340lbs. No way the ape RS125 is only 240lbs.



With equal riders I don't think 250GPs have been on par with modern 600s for a couple/few years. But I do agree with your 2 stroke break down.

Not sure why you think that. As I said long retired AMA champion Rich Oliver was running his 10+ year old TZ250 up front with a WSBK rider on a 1000cc bike. - Though it was not a WSBK 1000.

And if you check say the Phillip Island lap records the 250's are a bit faster than the 600's - http://www.phillipislandcircuit.com.au/uploads/Lap%20Records_Bikes_March_2007.pdf

Same with the lap records at WSIR - 250GP is a half second faster than the 600s

Gluge
02-04-2009, 07:13 PM
Its always difficult when you talk about street bikes on the track. When you get a true GP bike thats it. No mods required..

It gets really fuzzy with a 'true' GP bike also. Take the KTM RC125 that they use for the Redbull rookie cup, it's definatly not the same spec that they race them in at the world level. Same with the aprilia RSW125, and all the GP bikes.

For example your normal RC125 doesn't come with any suspention or speed sensors for data logging, doesn't come with any quick shifter setup and if you could compare to a factory world level RC125 you'd find at least the cylinder, head and exhaust were all different.

It's the same with all the bikes, sometimes you can buy a GP bike then buy some factory A-kit for it for another $20k and end up with something real close to what they're running in motoGP but you'll still be a little off.

The nice thing is the gap really narrows quickly. - for $5k you can get and old stock honda RS125 and run against RSW125's and only be down a hpr or so, do some porting and get a new head and close that gap a little more, it's always the last hpr that's the most $$.