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View Full Version : Warning Mana Owners!! Oil leaking out of crancase weep hole!!



mitchmike
09-11-2008, 08:36 AM
Hello, im appealing to all mana owners help with this.

I have had my bike from new around 4 months after the first month i was giving it a clean and i noticed oil has dripped on the underside of the crankcase.

I took it to the dealer who suspected it may of been a blown gasket so cleaned it up and took it for another ride checked again and noticed the oil was coming out of the water pump weep hole which is a small drilled hole next to the waterpump on the underside of the cranckcase.

The dealer suspected it may be oil leakiing out of the seal so all the water pump seals were replaced and still the same.

This has now been going on for 11 weeks and i have been to the dealers around 5 times and still no joy.

I am now speaking to the aprilia technical support team who recreated this problem on one of the test models and it was doing exactly the same ..leaking drops of oil!!..they also said this was the first time they have seen this happen and was not aware of it before.

The next day i get a call from them saying this was normal and there will be some oil leaking from the weep hole, they also said this also happens with the shiver but with that model they have incorporated some sort of catchment tubing which redristibutes the oil back into the engine.

I find it hard to beleive that this is meant to be normal!!, after each ride there are drops of oil leaking out and can even be dangerous as it will drip onto the floor than my back wheel will ride over the excess oil.

I am appealing to all mana owners to check this weep hole after a ride for signs of oil leaking, as the weep hole is right under the bike this may of not yet been noticed by some of you.

If no one else is reporting this problem than my bike is faulty and i am not happy to leave it like it is, and even now im not happy that oil should be leaking anyway even if it was designed to do this. I understood the water pump seals are designed to prevent leakage and the purpose of the weep hole was to warn you that there is a problem with the seals and water pump.

I would appeciate it if people could post there findings as this may be a potential problem for all mana owners.


Many Thanks

ritchj
09-11-2008, 09:07 AM
Interesting.

Some of the early oil filters had bad seams, and once we cleaned all the powdercoat chunks from the case side of the oil filer mount, the single drip I got every couple of days stopped. It hasn't dripped sense.

The filter challenge was something that showed up in an email from Aprilia.

tha-mask
09-11-2008, 09:48 AM
I just had a look on my Mana and found the hole you mention, but no signs of any oil leakage. My bike has now done 5500 miles and booked in for its 6000 mile service in just over a weeks time.

mitchmike
09-11-2008, 12:36 PM
Hello Thanks for the responses so far, i think this may be just related to my bike but would need more people to confirm there not having the same issue, so would greatly appreciate some responses, just to give you an idea of the oil leak i see after every ride i have attached a pic, this is what aprilia deem as normal leakage for this bike!!

vlehca
10-05-2008, 03:49 PM
Hi Mitch,

I have just noticed the same exact oil leakage from my Mana. My mana has exactly 100 mile on it. Like you said, it started to leak after each ride. What can we do about it?

mitchmike
10-06-2008, 03:38 PM
Hello There

Im very angry about this as the oil leak is gradually getting worse and now i have a small puddle of oil on the floor each time i ride it.

The regional manager for Aprilia UK has visited my dealer and has carried out further investigations regarding this matter and has taken phototgraphs on one of the guys mana who works for the dealer whos bike is also leaking !

From the initial investigations it looks to be a design fault where the seal looks to be spinning under high pressure allowing oil to seap through.

Im not sure what there going to do about it long term but im really not happy with this bike leaking all the time.My dealer has been fantastic and has tried 4 times to replace the seals and they have also had to wait for Aprilia to send them the correct tools to remove and replace the seal.Even with the correct tools there were unable to fix it, which is not there fault it is the fault of the manufacturer and its down to them to recall the bike for a permenant solution.

Im bringing my bike back to the dealers who will try to add a tube which will collect the oil and drain it where it does not leak through the weep hole and onto the floor.I have no idea how they are going to achieve this, apparently the shiver has a similar set up but to me this is just putting a plaster on the wound it wont heal it.I feel im just being fobbed with this fix but what else can i do its gone as far as the regional manager, appreciate any advice from any other Aprilia owners who have had similar issues.

Aprilia bikes are great but the seals for the water pump are rubbish and i find it incredible that still they cannot manufacture a bike that does not leak oil.

I would strongly recommend that you lodge a complaint to Aprilia customer services, this is the only way they will take any notice.

Im very surprised that more people are not having the same issue, maybe its only a matter of time for when the water pump seals fail.

Ill let you know how i get on with the dealer in the meantime

vlehca
10-06-2008, 04:47 PM
Based on what you've said, I guess it doesn't really matter if I do bring it to an Aprilia dealer near me to have a look. I only have 100 mile on it. I will try to put some more miles on it and see what happen then. If it does gradually getting worse like you've said, I will bring it to one of the aprilia dealer near me and also put in a complaint to Aprilia customer services.

By the way, did you have to pay for any of the work the dealer did on your bike? Was it all covered under warranty?

Thanks,

SilverFoxUno
10-06-2008, 05:17 PM
I have looked for this hole on my Mana with no luck finding it. Where is it located? I have about 1000 miles on mine with no evidence of oil leaking.

mitchmike
10-07-2008, 06:19 AM
Hello, in response to Vlehca all the work ie, replacement of water pump seals is done under warranty, interestly and what i havent mentioned before is that the water pump as a whole unit is built into the crankcase and cannot be replaced as a whole unit, im not an expert or a mechanic but it may be possible that the hole for the seals were machined slightly too big for the seals so this could be the problem,dont know.

In response to SilverFoxUno, to see the weep hole you need to lie flat on your back under the bike and its the side where the water pump is and the weep hole is on the underside of the crankcase.

You need to check this hole after you have taken it for a good ride, good idea to get a torch and just watch this hole for a couple of minutes for any oil to leak out, if its a slight leak it will take a bit of time to drip though to the weep hole.

SAFit07
10-10-2008, 09:31 PM
I had just taken it in for her 1st service last week. With just over 800 miles now, I'd noticed a couple of "drops" on the shop floor @ work and in the driveway after work today. Just as mentioned earlier, right after usage...a couple of drops. Is this from the tranny????

Fox Fader
10-12-2008, 08:48 AM
I'm sure it's the seal inside the water pump. Similar happened to some of the Rotax, but few and far between.

If this problem is this consistant, I say recall.

mitchmike
10-12-2008, 09:57 AM
I picked up my bike from my dealer who have devised there own workaround as a temporary solution.

They have basically inserted a thin drainage tube that comes out of the weep hole and will redistribute the oil back into the engine, this is by no means stopping the oil leak but at least it will not drip all over the floor and under my crankcase. (i will update with a picture soon).My dealer said this tubing was very similar for the shiver bikes so would be interested if any one can confirm this or can upload a pic so i can compare.

My dealer has been brilliant in trying to help with this, but to echo what Fox Fader has already mentioned that this problem is gradually becoming more consistant with other mana owners and its down to aprilia to seriously start thinking about issuing a "recall" for a permanent fix on those bikes effected.

My dealer has told me there is an open case for my bike with the manufacturer, so im hoping a permanent solution will be found soon, but this issue will only be accelerated by aprilia if more people expressed there concerns with there dealers and aprilia customer services as my lone voice will not be enough, so please mana owners keep a close eye out for this on your bike and update this post and let aprilia know so we can get this sorted.

Stu_O
10-12-2008, 01:00 PM
I am now speaking to the aprilia technical support team who recreated this problem on one of the test models and it was doing exactly the same ..leaking drops of oil!!..they also said this was the first time they have seen this happen and was not aware of it before. They "recreated" it, and it was doing the same thing? You can't recreate anything unless you know what's causing it. If that's what you were told, it was a euphemism for "it also happened to us on one of our test bikes, but we don't know at this point what's causing it."
The next day i get a call from them saying this was normal and there will be some oil leaking from the weep hole, they also said this also happens with the shiver but with that model they have incorporated some sort of catchment tubing which redristibutes the oil back into the engine. So first they say, essentially, it happened on a test bike here, but we've never seen or heard of it before. Now all of a sudden the next day, it's a normal condition...on two different models? Neither of those folks should be permitted to talk to customers till they get some more training in "corporate speak." Talking out of both sides of the corporate mouth and determining something like this normal can kill sales of both models before they even get off the ground - thanks in part to the Internet.


I find it hard to beleive that this is meant to be normal!!, ... It's not normal for properly designed parts, installed correctly, and in good condition. So one of those three things isn't true. That weep hole is more properly termed a witness hole. It's in a space between the seal designed to prevent coolant loss and the seal preventing engine oil loss. It's function is exactly what you stated - to alert to failure of either seal, but also to help prevent oil from getting into the coolant and vice versa. Running a catch tube back into the engine as a permanent solution would defeat both functions - they may as well close the hole with JB Weld, and hope the coolant seal never fails. That's essentially what they're doing with a catch tube back into the engine. Because if the carbon seal ever does fail, coolant will be recycled into the crankcase along with the seeping oil, and you're unlikely to notice it until the oil turns a milky color. Coolant does bad things quickly to plain shell bearings.
I would appeciate it if people could post there findings as this may be a potential problem for all mana owners.
Many Thanks It won't become a "problem" if it's classified as a normal condition. My hope is that Aprilia will be all over this thing like white on rice till they get it resolved, and that they refrain from inflaming owners by making conflicting, inane statements.

Stu

mitchmike
10-12-2008, 02:31 PM
Many thanks for your comments Stu, like you said there has been a lot of inane conflicting comments from the guys in Aprilia Technical support and customer services and like you i suspect neither have had the technical training in the bike prior to its UK release.

Im not impressed that i paid 6500 at the time of purchase to be fobbed off from aprilia technical support that this leakage is deemed as a normal condition, no bike should drip this amount of oil after each short ride and this has been happenning for 4 months from new!

And i take on board your comments about the function of the weep hole, and NO im not happy with this temporary fix and i will not accept it as a permanent solution, but after 5 visits to my dealer, 4 phone calls to aprilia customer services and 3 calls to the UK aprilia technical team and still no resolution im gratefull my dealer is trying to do something if not save me from an accident with oil all over my back tyre.

Im looking to this forum to drum up support for my case and to warn other aprilia owners and if that kill sales of the mana, thats not my fault, i love the bike but this whole experience and the way my complaint has been dealt with has just killed it for me, however like you i hope aprilia will find a solution to this and im sure they will, its just frustrating that it taking a lot of time and effort.

It would of been nice if someone from aprilia customer services would call me back and say this is being looked into and it will be resolved and i feel the only way ill be taken seriously if more people would start putting pressure on them. hence this post.

SAFit07
10-12-2008, 11:30 PM
I really should post pics of what I've found. Not so much a "drip" from the weep hole but a "dampness" around the gasket that splits the case at the very bottom of the bike. I'm embarrassed, I don't know the exact part I'm trying to describe. But basically, if looking at the bottom of the bike from the ground up, it splits the bike literally in half. The texture of the fluid is hard to guess. It seems a combination of oil & coolant?

Oh well, a good one for the AF1 crew to look at since it was the first MANA sold from there.

mitchmike
10-13-2008, 02:56 AM
This does sound like the same issue, when i first noticed this problem it looked like it was leaking out of the seam of the gasket ring and had the appearance of dampness on the bottom of the crankcase, and my dealer first suspected a blown gasket.

So he cleaned it up and i took it for another ride and than noticed it was coming out of the weep (witness) hole and than drips onto the underside of the gasket and with the vibration of the engine it will spread itself out and give the appearance of dampness.

You could clean the underside of your crankcase and tape maybe some card onto the underside of the weep hole and see if it leaks from the wephole, if it doesent and is leaking from the seam of the gasket ring and it could be just as serious as it may be a blown gasket, but im not a mechanic so please take it to your dealer to diagnose and would be good it you could post a pic as well.

abouc
10-13-2008, 09:35 AM
I had a similar problem with my SportCity 250. A few drops of oil were showing up on my garage floor every day and enough leaked while riding to cover the whole underside of the engine, swingarm and even the muffler.

The dealer looked at it a few times to determine what the problem was. He thought it may have been a faulty oil filter seal. I hoped it wasn't a blown gasket. Eventually, he found that there was a sensor that hadn't been properly tightened by the factory. He tightened it up and cleaned the engine/transmission and I haven't had a problem since.

Here's a diagram of my leak.
http://portalfluxmedia.com/sc250/diagram5.jpg

Hopefully yours is something easy like that. It's very disappointing to buy a new bike and have problems right from the get go.

vlehca
10-13-2008, 03:11 PM
I have just took my Mana to my dealer and they said they witness the leakage from the weep hole. They think the seal is bad so they're ordering the seal to be replaced.

I will let you guys know once the seal has been replaced.

mitchmike
10-13-2008, 03:32 PM
Thanks for the info abouc, interesting that the sensor was the cause of the leak in your case, my dealer is fairly sure its the seal or the seal housing causing this leak on my mana


Sorry vlehca to hear you are possibly having the same problem, i had 4 sets of new water pump seals replaced and this made no difference ,i would be interested to know if this does help in your case what seal/s where replaced, .. see last pic which shows the seals (6 & 3) replaced on my bike.

vlehca if you have not done so already can you please raise a case with aprilia customer services they need to know about this.


As promised in my previous post below are the pics of the catcher tube my dealer fitted as a temporary solution.

FUN DOG
10-16-2008, 09:31 AM
You might find the thread entitled "Water Pump Seals" in the 1000 f.a.q. section very interesting.

Different engine, different displacement, but same problem.

mitchmike
10-16-2008, 12:38 PM
Thanks for that FUN DOG, fantastic detailed write up by Kzmille he could teach the manufacturers a thing or two about this issue, im going to be relentless with the manufacturer in coming up with a fix for my bike, i wish i had the technical expertise as Kzmille to fix it myself but this bike is only 5 mths old and Aprilia are obligated to find a solution to this problem.

Altougth not specific to aprilia but there loads more interesting stuff here on the subject of water pump seals

http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/Water_Pump_Seal_Repair_FAQ.htm#Pegaso%20Waterpump% 20Kit

SAFit07
10-18-2008, 03:56 PM
The more I look at mine, the more I think it might be something else. The leak looks like it originates from the right-hand side of the bike and thus when 'parked', it's trickling down and coating the whole underside until it drips @ the two lowest point (weep holes?).

mitchmike
10-18-2008, 05:01 PM
Be interested to see the pictures, i normally edit my pics in windows paint, by selecting image than resize and reduce the vertical/horizontal % so i get around 50kb.

Have you checked the oil level in the sight glass, ideally should be just below max, but i cant see where the oil will leak out on the right side, the weep hole where my leak is coming is a warning indicator for the oil pump and water pump seals.

Have another go at posting the pics.

SAFit07
10-19-2008, 02:53 PM
Just wanted too add that I love this bike. And so does the wife. In fact, after having ridden the MP3 250 to work yesterday (and on the freeway for the first time), she vowed to never do it again. She loves the MANA. Me, after having ridden the MP3 for the last several months, I enjoy taking the MANA to work and back.

Don't tell the crew on the VESPA forum....:kidding:

SAFit07
10-22-2008, 11:39 PM
Had the MANA looked at by the crew @ AF1. Looks like it's not as serious as originally thought or what 'mitchmike' has endured.

Hope to pick-up by the end of the week if my schedule arrives....

Just want to say a big THANKS/Kudos to BJ & the AF1 crew...will definitely con't spreading the 'good word'!

:worship:

mitchmike
10-23-2008, 12:43 PM
Thats good to hear, wish i was as fortunate as mine is still leaking so at the moment im not loving my bike, did AF1 say what was actually causing your leaks ,would be useful to know what was causing it??

Micah / AF1 Racing
10-23-2008, 05:31 PM
In the case of SAfit's bike the entire issue went back to the sealing surface of the oil filter gasket. The surface on the case where the oil filter sealed was rough from the machining process, leaving microscopic gaps for the oil to escape through. These pics sort of suck but all I had handy was the point and shoot.

The fix was easy enough, oiled up some 600 grit sandpaper, and VERY CAREFULLY smoothed out the seating surface of the crankcase to remove what jagged edges of the aluminum I could. Then installed a new oil filter (in case the previous gasket had damage from its seat)...and no more leak. It did look a lot like the oil was coming from the case halves or pressure switch...but as best I can tell the bike is fixed with little trouble.

Micah / AF1 Racing
10-23-2008, 05:33 PM
BTW, the first 3 pics are before and the last three are after sanding...big difference, hopefully all that is needed. My Mana demo has not leaked in a thousand miles so far?

abouc
10-23-2008, 05:52 PM
Good problem solving, Micah. Hopefully that does the trick. Very poor QC on the Aprilia factory's part, sending out parts so poorly machined. If they were made in America, I'd guess it was a "Friday" bike.

SilverFoxUno
10-24-2008, 09:35 AM
You know...the appearance of those chatter marks on the filter boss is a little concerning. I wonder if mitchmike's leakage is also do to machining chatter? First, don't let them replace the water pump seal again - common sense tell me that since the fluid leaking is not coolant, the leak is not in the water pump. I did an examination of my bike while looking at all the pictures and sketches in the shop manual last night. I think we can all agree that the hole is a "tell tale" for a potential leak - I suspect that it is for the water pump seal - so why is oil coming out? The water pump is driven by a gear set that is driven by the oil pumps shaft (driven from a crankshaft chain on the right side of the engine). The oil pumps are located forward and below the crankshaft with the scavenging pump in the sump only accessable when the cases are split. A pair of gears are driven off the oil pump to drive the water pump. What I can not find in the shop manual is exactly where the cavity from which the "tell tale" drains is located. I suspect the oil may be coming from the geared drive somehow. I also suspect the only way to know for certain is to split the cases. How's that for a couple of cents worth...

kzmille
10-24-2008, 09:44 AM
...First, don't let them replace the water pump seal again - common sense tell me that since the fluid leaking is not coolant, the leak is not in the water pump. I did an examination of my bike while looking at all the pictures and sketches in the shop manual last night. I think we can all agree that the hole is a "tell tale" for a potential leak - I suspect that it is for the water pump seal - so why is oil coming out?...
There are two seals on the water pump shaft. One for coolant and the other is an oil seal. If the oil seal leaks it leaks out the weep hole.

SilverFoxUno
10-24-2008, 10:04 AM
There are two seals on the water pump shaft. One for coolant and the other is an oil seal. If the oil seal leaks it leaks out the weep hole.

You're right! I found it on pg 308...the oil seal is replaced by spliting the cases. A 020663Y Water pump shaft oil seal punch is used to set the seal.

mitchmike
10-24-2008, 06:27 PM
Firstly i would just like to say that being from London UK im really grateful to all you guys in the US in taking the time to post your excellent contributions, it now makes sense to me that the cause could possibly be related to a failed oil pump seal and not the water pump seals as original thought, because what is coming out of the weep hole looks to be oil and not coolant (but not really sure what coolant looks like when it leaks)

Is replacing the oil seal a diffulcult job and will it require any special tools apart from the 020663Y Water pump shaft oil seal punch.

I need to go back to my dealer with this new information and im really surprised that the technical guys in aprilia UK did not suugest to the dealer to replace the oil seal as well!

Just to clarify Kzmille, if there was a failure of the water pump seal only, just coolant will leak out of the weep hole and on the flip side if there was a failure of the oil seal, just oil will leak out of the same weep hole.

The temporary catcher tube that is plugged in the weep hole is actually a clear tube and not a black tube as shown in the pic (i discovered this when i was washing my bike and the black coating was rubbing off), anyway this reveals in more detail what is leaking out of this weep hole, if one of you experts can identify for sure what this fluid is whether oil/coolant or mixture of both ,i will post the pics soon.

Many thanks again.

kzmille
10-24-2008, 07:36 PM
...Just to clarify Kzmille, if there was a failure of the water pump seal only, just coolant will leak out of the weep hole and on the flip side if there was a failure of the oil seal, just oil will leak out of the same weep hole...

That's right. There is narrow space between the water seal and the oil seal. the weep hole leads into this space. The idea being that if either one leaks, the fluid has somewhere to go without possibly being forced through the other and contaminating the other system.

Having never seen a Mana much less worked on one I don't know what is required to replace the seals.

mitchmike
10-26-2008, 05:10 AM
Hi below is the pic of the temporary catcher tube my dealer fitted, that was shown before but now with the black coating rubbed of to give a better idea of the amount of leakage coming out of the weep hole, apologies for the stupid Q but is this definetely just oil that is leaking and not a mixture of coolant and oil, thanks

kzmille
10-26-2008, 09:14 AM
Looks like oil to me.

alfamoi
10-26-2008, 05:06 PM
Yesterday, I spoke with an Aprilia dealer who told me that that was the only problem he had with Mana sold.
Oil leak.
He told me that was "les bourrages moteur" "The stuffings engine"??

I don't know if that can help...

mitchmike
10-27-2008, 12:37 PM
Hi alfamoi, thanks for the reply but not sure what you mean by "les bourrages moteur" "The stuffings engine"??, what a strange thing for a dealer to say and that is the correct french to english translation!!


Are you saying this dealer had a problem with a Mana he sold was leaking oil as well the same way mine is, if so was anything done about it..sorry but totally confused by your post

alfamoi
10-27-2008, 03:46 PM
Hello Mitchmike.
Sorry for my poor English...
I've search the web, but even in French, "bourrage" doesn't seem to be very used...
But what is sure is, that this bourrage is a joint (he told me that this joint was like pinched at a place.)
Ant the oil dripped under the motor. He doesn't spoke to me about the hole you speak about.
If you want, I can try to know more (but now that he knows that I've ordered in an other garage :rolleyes: )

mitchmike
10-27-2008, 03:54 PM
Hello alfamoi, thanks for that it make a bit more sense, i wonder what joint he was referring to that was pinched (possibly weak seals), be great if you can get more info, but his right about this being the only problem with Mana being an oil leak that may effect a few bikes as this is the only problem ive had everything else is fine..

alfamoi
11-03-2008, 08:21 AM
Hello MitchMike.
I've received an answer of the sympathetic dealer I've spoke with, last time.
He sent me this picture, and told me that the joint he has to change was the number 9.
I hope this helps.
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1026/baguedetancheitehp7.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/baguedetancheitehp7.gif/1/w569.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img504/baguedetancheitehp7.gif/1/)

mitchmike
11-03-2008, 01:21 PM
Hello alfamoi, many thanks for the reply, that looks to the gasket ring, which is pretty serious as they need to spilt the crankcase to replace, doesent look to the same issue as mine which now looks to the oil pump seals.

I am still waiting from an official reponse from aprilia regarding a fix for my bike, its now been over 5 mths phoned them again but they just say they will get back to me but they dont!, im not sure what else i can do ,i may have to start seeking legal advice on this matter, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

alfamoi
11-03-2008, 07:08 PM
Before to spend your time and your money in justice , You may try to write to the importer pushing the bad image of Italian product that they perpetuate, and tell them that if there is no quick reaction, You will reveal the whole story on forums, create a site and write to a consumers' association that You have in England...

Kuntry
11-19-2008, 12:04 PM
Has anyone found an actual fix for this issue?
What is that tube connected to?
I also do not see the tube on the Shiver that was mentioned

mitchmike
11-19-2008, 01:21 PM
Hi there, nope 6 months and still no fix, this is still an open case with aprilia and they have yet to get back to me, i really dont know what to do about this nobody from aprilia is listening.

One end of the tube is connected to the weep hole and the other end i was told goes into the air box, and i reckon i was fobbed off saying the same connector is used on the shiver to collect leaking oil.

Im going to speak to my dealer again who are also at the mercy of aprilia coming up with a solution to this, i have to put this hold as i had other matters to deal but now im really pissed off , think i have been patient enough.

Sorry for the rant, but aprilia after service is shocking!!!..

SAFit07
11-20-2008, 12:07 AM
I'm fortunate that AF1 is right up the road......so far, so good w/ mine.

vlehca
12-30-2008, 01:02 PM
Hi Mitchmike,

A while back you have said you're going to seek legal advice. How is the legal advice coming? Do you have a case? I'm in the process of seeking legal advice for my Mana myself.

motoken
12-30-2008, 05:28 PM
Hey guys, I have been watching this thread with a lot of interest to see how this problem is rectified as my bike has the dreaded oil leak from the weep hole. When I brought it in for the 600 mile service I told them of the leak, well it's been over a month and a half now and they said at first after speaking to the Aprilia rep that they would have to split the cases. I called them today to get the status and they are putting in a new motor! It's in the country now in customs. I asked why a new motor over just a seal and was told that by the time all the costs were added up it was the better way to go. I'll post new information about anything else as I find out about it.

chrisrappl
12-30-2008, 10:28 PM
Mitchmike and Vlehca are both seeking legal advice concerning their Manas. Are they both having oil leak problems from the oil seal at the waterpump? Or are they having different problems that we should be aware of? Has anyone besides Motoken had this problem properly rectified under warranty? If so, what was done and how long was the bike out of service?

vlehca
12-31-2008, 01:08 PM
My Mana has oil leaking from the weep hole. I brought it in for service and they told me they have to replace the seal. After replacing the seal, the oil still leaks. They said something about having to relace the waterpump now. It has be in the shop for over a month now.

mitchmike
01-01-2009, 04:38 PM
Hello all, im sorry to hear other people are have similar issues to mine, ive been busy with other legal issues concerning a bike crash i had (thankfully not on my mana) and now this is coming to an end i may have to pursue legal action against the manufacturers regarding this oil leak from the "weep hole".

I did ring aprilia customer services a couple of months ago and i was told my call was closed!!, it begars belief that the call was closed so i had to go through and raise another one as nothing has changed and i still have the same problem (from 7 mths ago)

I will speak to my dealers next week for an update on this case, im hoping this can be resolved through them before i take any legal action.

I dont think i will be buying another aprilia bike as the after care service has been the worst i have ever experienced, i will let you know how i get on.

Moekazi
01-02-2009, 09:54 PM
This problem sounds like too much pressure in the crankcase. On a normal bike this usually causes oil to be pushed out of the shift lever hole. I don't think the Mana's shift lever actually penetrates the case. That would leave the water pump as the only place for crankcase pressure to escape.

It usually occurs when one of the crankcase ventilation hoses gets blocked/pinched. Also, in the past there's been new bikes released with too much restriction because of poor design. It's possible that Aprilia overlooked it when making the new engine.

I have a hard time believing it's a seal issue. Although, after seeing the horrible finish on the oil filter seal, it's possible they butchered the seal's seat. I would think that they would have noticed it during one of the 4 times they replaced it. Even a crappy tech would find it after the 4th time.

Did any of you with this problem have the engine ventilation system checked?

.

Micah / AF1 Racing
01-03-2009, 01:30 AM
MitchMike...if only you were closer, if only....I am pretty good at figuring this stuff out, the above response though makes much mental sense, I have seen it before.

mitchmike
01-03-2009, 01:58 PM
Thanks Micah and Moekazi, i feel very envious of all those aprilia owners who live near AF1 Racing, as this problem would of been fixed a long time ago if i went to them, can you not open up a London branch :)...

Moekazi theory is an interesting one and something that has not been mentioned before in this post or by the aprilia UK techies and my dealers, just so i can look as if i know what im talking about when i speak to my dealers, what is the procedure with regard to checking the "engine's ventilation system"..

JodyH
01-04-2009, 10:19 AM
MitchMike...if only you were closer, if only....I am pretty good at figuring this stuff out, the above response though makes much mental sense, I have seen it before.
A perfect illustration of the difference between a mechanic and a parts changer.
The parts changer will replace the broken part (ie: leaking seal). A mechanic always thinks about why something broke, not just that it's broken (why is the seal leaking?).

Moekazi
01-07-2009, 06:35 PM
There's a few different ways that vent systems are rigged up. The simplest are either a small air filter attached at the crankcase or a hose from the airbox to the crankcase. The latter is most often used in motorcycles, but there are more elaborate systems. I'm not sure what the Mana uses.

On the compression stroke, some of the fuel/air mixture gets forced past the rings. The effect is that it creates pressure in the crankcase. This pressure will build up if it is not released until something gives. Commonly, a shaft seal goes first, i.e. shift lever seal, and then gaskets, i.e. valve cover gasket. In your case it sounds like the water pump seal.

Looking at your pic of the hose they rigged up, it looks like oil is going up the tube. That means either the end from the crankcase is under pressure, or the end they vented to is under vacuum. I don't know where they routed the top of the tube, and i'm a bit worried where it ended up.

If the Mana is rigged up like most motorcycles with a hose from the crankcase to the airbox, it should be checked for adequate air flow. Typically, this means removing the oil fill cap, disconnecting the hose at the air box, and blowing on it. There should be no resistance. Also, they should check that the hole into the airbox is clear by attaching a hose to it and blowing. A visual inspection of the hole would be good because there can be defects in manufacturing, i.e. excess flash partially blocking the hole.

Blow-by is most excessive when the throttle is opened rapidly at low engine speeds and/or high loads, especially when the engine is cold. If this describes your riding style, you may want to refrain until you get the venting system checked.

.

mitchmike
01-08-2009, 02:22 PM
Moekazi many thanks for taking the time to post this explanation, really interesting stuff, the weather has been pretty bad in the UK this week so not had to time to go to my dealers but will be going next week.

The temporary pipe that was rigged, i believe the other end goes back into the engine or air box (need to confirm this), the other end just plugs the weep- hole, and oil is defenitely being pushed up this box not sure from which end thought, and your correct in saying that oil is leaking from the water pump, could be from the coolant or the oil pump side, both seal sides have been replaced.

Just out of interest by bike is restricted to 33 bhp as im on a restricted license, could this have any bearing on pressure build up in the crankcase.

Moekazi
01-08-2009, 10:31 PM
The typical restriction kit itself shouldn't cause a problem, but it requires fiddling around with the airbox. It is possible that the installer goofed some where. If you consider that the Mana is a newer, low production model, the installer prolly hadn't done a restriction on one before. Not everything is done right the first time.

.

motoken
01-28-2009, 09:32 PM
I finally got my bike back and I found out more about the issue. When I first brought it in the dealer replaced the oil seal and it leaked immediately so they called the Aprilia rep and were informed they had to use the "special Aprilia tool" to replace the seal. They got the tool in and replaced the seal again, but still the same leak. They got with the rep to figure the next step. Apparently the seal was leaking from around the outside, not around the shaft so the housing was machined incorrectly or had a bad surface finish. It was either replace the entire housing, which is a major piece of the motor, or replace the whole motor. The got it OK'd from Aprilia to replace the motor and now I have a new motor with no oil leak. They told me Aprilia wanted my old motor back ASAP so I'm assuming they will check it out thoroughly. I don't know if everybody's bike that leaks has the same problem but this is something to consider. I hope everybody else that has this problem gets it rectified because this is a sweet bike and a blast to ride.

Moekazi
01-28-2009, 11:34 PM
That's awesome that it's finally fixed.

Too bad about the motor, though. It must of had the same finish as that oil filter seal mating surface that was posted. Did you by chance remove the filter and see if yours was just as bad?

I hope they didn't bork too many of them. Replacing engines is expensive and i can't imagine Aprilia is making much off the Mana as it is.

.

motoken
01-29-2009, 06:53 PM
No, I had it in for the 600 mi. service when they started with all the work. When I went back to pick it up with the new motor they did say they were aware of others with the same problem. I don't know what the new motor cost, I didn't ask and the bill just said "n/c" at the bottom.

mitchmike
01-31-2009, 05:00 AM
Hi, i phoned Aprilia customer services for the 4th time and spoke to the dealers whom in turn again consulted UK Aprilia technical support, and finally people are starting to take notice!!.

Exactly the same scenario as Motoken, there looks a faulty batch of engine casings where they were not machined correctly and the oil is leaking from the outside of the seal.

My dealer has now got the go ahead to put in a warranty claim for the engine casing (housing) to be replaced on my bike, in which i assume will be a complete engine rebuild.

Im hoping this will finally resolve this and im glad Aprilia are now trying to fix this, just unfortunate that it has taking nearly 8 months and i was at the point in where i had no choice but to raise legal action.

Hopefully the next time i update will be a more positive one and no more oil leak!!

alfamoi
02-01-2009, 05:24 PM
Hopefully the next time i update will be a more positive one and no more oil leak!!

We hope it too... :cheers:

chrisrappl
02-13-2009, 06:04 PM
I brought my bike in today for its 600 miles service and asked the mechanic to check a small oil leak that seems to be coming from somewhere on the front of the engine. I was hoping that it was a weeping sensor or an over/under tightened oil filter - something simple. It isn't much, just a drip or two when parked after a ride. I've been wiping the engine off after each ride to try to keep things from getting too grungy down there. He seems to think that it is coming from the waterpump seal area and is going to contact Aprilia for help on Tuesday. I'll keep you posted. I really like this bike and hope that it isn't laid up during the riding season, but I do want it fixed properly, so...

SAFit07
02-13-2009, 11:33 PM
Ours had an irregular, spotty finish where the oil filter met the 'block'. Micah and crew smoothed it down and no issues since, some 1500 miles later.

chrisrappl
03-24-2009, 03:11 PM
My bike is back at the dealership to have the oil leak repaired. I'll keep you posted. My dealer was told by Aprilia that they had only experienced this problem with one other bike. On this thread alone I count four - Mitchmike, vlehca, Motoken and me. Any others experiencing this weeping from the water pump area?

mitchmike
03-24-2009, 04:05 PM
Hi Chrisrappi, things are now becoming very serious with this issue, since my last update my dealer was in consultation with UK technical support and the UK Aprilia Manager Paul Goodisia and they admitted there was a batch of faulty engine cases and agreed that the only way to fix the issue was to replace the engine and they put in a warranty claim to that effect.

Originally they was going to replace the casing but because my dealer is cutting ties with Aprilia they would not supply the tools to split the engine casing as they are too expensive so the cheaper option was to replace the engine.

The engine replacement was confirmed to me over two weeks ago and that this was definetely going to happen and Paul Goodisia agreed that this should go ahead and any problems that he would make sure it would go through.

My dealer phoned me today and told me that the warranty claim for a new engine had been rejected by Aprilia and no reason was given. They said that my dealer would need to put in a warranty claim for water pump shaft assembly , as they think that the part i have is too small for the casing and oil may be leaking around the rim...go figure!!. This is a complete fob off as i fear that if they did replace my engine they would be admitting liability there is a problem and would have to do this to other bikes such as yours at a great expense.

My dealer has tried to contact Paul Goodisia and have left message but he is not returning there calls and is basically turning his back on what he agreed, and this is the top Aprilia man in the UK!!. This is all very disturbing and should be a concern for all Aprilia owners or anyone thinking of buying an Aprilia that this is going on.

I have also been told of other stories where warranty claims have gone in and people have had to wait months for things to happen.

Im very upset that this is happening and I feel completely helpless and I dont know what to do to get my bike fixed, I was told I was going to be getting a replacement engine but this has all been lies. I spent over 6000 for this bike which was all my savings and I have had this problem for 10 months and now my engine is starting to stutter and stall, which I believe is down to this oil leak.

I want to take legal action but cannot afford it, I phoned Aprilia customer services and they just said I have to open up another case, this is the 5th one for the same issue.

I would appreciate any advice from anyone on what to do as I am at a loss and feeling pretty depressed about the whole thing, thankyou

RS4EVER
03-24-2009, 06:27 PM
Isn't anybody at Aprilia Corporation reading this and feeling the need to fire Mr Belisia due to the bad press Aprilia might get if this passiveness goes public?. These are the kind of issues that separate the good from the bad makes.

Please Aprilia (UK or worldwide) don't let the rumour spread and act ASAP!!!

Best luck to all the affected!!!

As for me, I might have to put off my Mana buying decision...

ManaSport
03-24-2009, 09:22 PM
Yep me too I hope I dont buy a lemon even its a good deal on a 2008 I was offerred, but I have no clue if this would be one of the bad batches

mitchmike
03-26-2009, 01:35 PM
vlehca

In your last update you said your dealer has put in a warranty claim for a water pump replacement, interested to know how youre getting on, did this resolve the issue?


motoken

I am going to write to Piagio Head office about my case and need all the evidence i can get, would you be able to give me the name of your dealer who successfully put in a warranty claim for a new engine and was there any admission from Aprilia that the casing/housing was machined incorrectly or had a bad surface finish.

chrisrappl

Any more updates on your case?

chrisrappl
03-26-2009, 02:49 PM
I took the bike in on Tuesday and asked the Service Manager to keep me informed on its progress. Since it has only been two days, I haven't heard anything yet. If I don't hear anything this week, I'll call next Tuesday afternoon for an update and I will keep you posted.

motoken
03-26-2009, 03:30 PM
mitchmike you've got a PM

mitchmike
03-26-2009, 03:59 PM
Many Thanks for the info Motoken, this will really help build up a case towards the manufacturers Piagio, as i may have to go down the route of a no win no fee legal case if they do not get my bike fixed soon.

I have a feeling or assumption that they have urgently looked at your engine, and used that to maybe come up with a workaround, possibly by making the water pump shaft assembly bigger or making an extra seal (not sure not an expert). So could be reason why they have decided not to replace my engine if they have a workaround sporned from your engine, just all seems to be cloak and dagger.

Thanks as well chrisrappl, look forward to your update

SnowMonkey
03-27-2009, 08:51 AM
O.K. this is my first post, so if I screw it up, please forgive.

I purchased my Mana this past Sept. No riding up here in the winter, so I started it and let it idle twice in the last month (for about 10-15 minutes each time). Yup, 'weep hole' leak (about 2-3 drips). I've just let my dealer know about it. We'll see what comes next.

mitchmike
03-27-2009, 10:31 AM
Sorry to hear that SnowMonkey, how many more Mana owners have got to go through this rubbish before Aprilia issue a recall.

I know you have told your dealer but I would seriously advise you to call customer services on 00800 15565500 and raise a case, they are useless but at least they will have a history of complaints made and hopefully start taking notice.

Please continue to post updates on your progress.

PAPASMURF
03-27-2009, 11:26 AM
O.K. this is my first post, so if I screw it up, please forgive.

I purchased my Mana this past Sept. No riding up here in the winter, so I started it and let it idle twice in the last month (for about 10-15 minutes each time). Yup, 'weep hole' leak (about 2-3 drips). I've just let my dealer know about it. We'll see what comes next.

I had a oil leak the 1st. month,when I took it in they found there was too much oil. I now have 8000k on it and no oil leaks.It seems the dip stick and the side view do not give the proper readings

chrisrappl
03-27-2009, 01:38 PM
I just received a call from the Dealership. They have ordered the required seals, gaskets and a factory seal installation tool. The parts are not in stock and they gave me an ETA of six to eight weeks. I guess I'll pick up the bike and ride it until the parts come in. I'll just wipe its bottom after each ride. I don't know why they couldn't have accomplished this during the 600 mile service. It would have saved me two round trips at about 120 miles each. But...

mitchmike
03-27-2009, 03:03 PM
I'll just wipe its bottom after each ride. , you need to get your dealer to put a cathata on your mana like mine has (see catcher tube photos), your comment did make me laugth, you need to retain your sense of humour when stuff like this happens.

Are they going to order a new water pump shaft assembly as well, I am not saying replacing the seals in youre case wont work, but i have had 3 sets replaced and its made no difference.

mitchmike
03-29-2009, 03:38 PM
I now have this creamy yellow/white milky fluid leaking out of the weep oil, before it was just oil, looks to be contaminated oil, explains why my engine sounds awful and is losing power now, does anyone know what this stuff is?

I have written to Piagio Head office in the UK regarding my case with complaints about the awful customer service from Aprilia and the UK regional manager and asking for a replacement engine or bike. I have also sent photos and evidence of similar cases to mine,will see what response i get.

chrisrappl
03-29-2009, 07:05 PM
I think that the weep hole is designed to allow the escape of any fluid that leaks past the seals. I also think that there is an oil seal and a coolant seal. Milky looking oil usually means that the oil contains some moisture. It could be as simple as the coolant seal weeping enough to mix with the oil and turn it a milky white. Depending upon how the tube is sealed on both ends, riding in the rain could allow rainwater to mix with the discharged oil. If this is the case, the poor running condition would be a separate issue unrelated to the milky discharge. What does the oil look like in the sight glass and on the dipstick? If it is clear amber, then you are fine. If it is milky, then the coolant is mixing with the oil and you have another problem. Just my thoughts. As always YMMV

mitchmike
03-31-2009, 10:28 AM
Thanks Chrisrappl, checked the sight glass, and its a dark amber colour and the dipstick shows the same, hopefully the warranty parts will be in soon so it will be at the dealers again!!!!... to further investigate, if it gets any worse ill bring it in sooner..

From what i understand the weep hole is designed to be an indicator of problems for the oil pump as well as the water pump so the 2 look to have mixed (coolant/oil)

mitchmike
04-29-2009, 07:04 AM
Just a quick update...

I received a letter from the Piaggio After Sales Manager on the 8th April saying they are escalating this to the factory to look into the situation, so still awaiting a reply.

Phoned my dealer to see if they have heard from Piaggio and as I expected they have not even contacted them. In my previous update I was told by my dealer they would be putting in a warranty claim for a new water pump, but the technical department looks to have cut all communications with the dealer regarding my case, as my dealer has told me they are not returning thier calls.

So after 11 months I am still in limbo and nothing has still not been fixed. At least I now have a name from Piaggio so any furture communication will be directed there, as its seems to be hitting a brick wall with my dealer.

I have never known anything like this from a big company like Piaggio to treat there customers like a piece of SHIT, I think they are hoping I would just go away.

alfamoi
05-05-2009, 04:41 PM
pffff I'm sorry for you!

In Belgium, we have two kind of warranty. One from the constructor who said two years, this and that piece and patati and patata...
and we have a legal warranty who said that the property purchased must be fit for the purposes for which goods of the same type are usually... in this case, to run!!!
This surely exist in your country.
I think unfortunately, it is time for you to take action :rambo:

SAFit07
05-05-2009, 09:22 PM
Ugh...I've gotta find the link on the modern vespa forum. There was a 'catastrophic' failure w/ one of the member's MP3 500 last summer. Always wondered what had happened w/ the issue until he posted an update just last month after a few months of nothing....

Anyhow, Piaggio was reimbursing him, etc. Took sometime though.

When I find it, I'll re-post w/ the link....

mitchmike
05-28-2009, 01:50 PM
Any luck with finding the post SAFit07, as I have still not heard anything back from Piaggio since I received a letter from Simon Neal (Piaggio Group UK After-Sales Manager, Technical Department) dated 8th April.

The letter basically said that he will be sending the details of the problem to the factory, asking them to look into the situation, and he will get back to me. I did write another follow up letter on the 5th may, and as usual that has been ignored as well.

Now this is the top man for after sales for the whole of the Piaggio UK group, and still hitting a brick wall, where else can I go? To makes things worse I have now had to switch dealers, because my dealer has fallen out with Piaggio big time, and they are not supplying the special toolsfor the Mana to them, so they could not even fix the bike even if they had parts to do so!!. Piaggio should be ashamed of the way they have dealt with this whole issue as its rotton to the core, and anyone thinking of buying a bike made by Piaggio, should be prepared to put up with this crap.

Any luck with getting your bike fixed chrisrappl

chrisrappl
05-28-2009, 03:43 PM
No joy to date.
My selling dealer (60 miles away) is also no longer an authorized Aprilia dealer and therefore is no longer authorized to do any warranty repairs.
Luckily since purchasing my bike, a local dealer (10 miles away) is now authorized to sell and service Aprilias. I called them on 5/8/09 and stopped by to talk to the service manager in person on 5/12/09. They said that they would contact Aprilia on my behalf. I have not heard back from them so I contacted Aprilia Customer Care and have spoken with "TJ" a couple of times. She told me that the tools are still not available. I asked about the original 6 to 8 week delivery estimate from the selling dealer who was supposed to have placed the order on 3/27/09. She couldn't give me an answer, however, she did call on 5/22/09 to say that they were trying to locate the tool(s) at another dealership and arrange for my new shop to borrow them to do the repair.
Luckily the leak is not so bad as to keep me from riding, but I would like it taken care of before we start our cross-country trips this summer.

SAFit07
05-28-2009, 06:48 PM
mitchmike,

Here's the guy who had an issue w/ his MP3 500. The link is from the modernvespa.com forum....oh, his update is near the 'bottom' of the following link & his name is 'Sorchichi'.

http://www.modernvespa.com/forum/topic24718?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80

mitchmike
05-29-2009, 07:48 AM
Thanks for the post, interesting stuff, sounds like he had a major battle with Piaggio, and at least they tried to do something in his case. I am not asking for a new bike, i just want my oil leak repaired, all that has been done so far, is set of new water pump seals replaced,i Iam happy to go to the next stage in getting the water pump shaft assembly replaced, but struggling to get this done!. If that does not work than look an the engine casing, and if no joy than yes a replacement engine. I totally accept things go wrong but when they do there should be some effort to put them right, if i was making unreasonable demands like a new bike, than I would expect a battle, but not for this issue.

mitchmike
07-03-2009, 01:09 PM
Latest Update..I have heard nothing from Simon Neal (Piaggio Group UK After-Sales Manager, Technical Department), since I sent original letter of complaint dated 8th April.

As Piaggio were unwilling to supply the tools to my original dealer to try and fix the problem (to split the crankcase), I have had to switch dealers to try and progress this myself. As this is a new dealer, I am having to start from scratch again, ie have the set of 3 water pump seals replaced (now my 4th set), this was done a week a go.

I have not done many miles since than, so too early to say if the problem has been fixed. If it does continue to leak, the dealer said they will look to replace the water pump shaft assembly, which means splitting the crankcase, and they said they have the tools to do this.

So fingers crossed it does not come to that.

chrisrappl
07-03-2009, 03:46 PM
Looks like I'll be taking the BMW cross-country this summer since Aprilia has not yet been able to take care of my oil leak. I have been in contact with TJ @ Aprilia Customer Care. She first suggested that I take the bike to an out of state dealership (540 miles RT). I actually would be willing to do this if I had confidence that they could fix it in one trip. We are now at the point where my local dealer has agreed to purchase the factory seal setting tool and they will let me know when it arrives so that I can make an appointment.

Jim web
07-03-2009, 05:31 PM
Good luck Mitchmike and Chrisrappl, hope everything work's out and you get to ride your bike again.

Motopsycho
07-04-2009, 11:53 AM
I have a Mana with 200 hundred miles on it and a lot of experience with engines and leaks and here's what we found upon close inspection after reading the frightening reports about the oil filter leak and weep hole leak.
I have no way to post a pic at this time but here's the deal. Weeping usually means a small amount of oil spread out a bit mixed with road grime near a gasket. Our oil filter is doing this around the front edge and the case is dirty from it. There is an obvious trail between the filter and case where the oil went to the lowest point and ( from sitting on the sidestand all the time ) ran across the case behind the raised up boss with a hole through it and emerged almost directly under the weep hole on the water pump. The weep hole is bone dry around itself but two drops of oil were clinging to the case about 3/4 of an inch aft of the hole making most people think that it was the weep hole. The oil must have accumulated at the backside end of the empty boss hole and then when on the road blew back. I am quite sure of this because the slightly wet line where it came across the case is unmistakeable.
I would urge everyone to clean the case around the oil filter and underside of the bike and then run or ride a bit and keep inspecting the area to really determine the cause. I can well imagine the number of wasted tear downs of water pumps and seals when it really might just be the oil filter as described by Micah and fixed by him. The only other point to both problems is that it could be aggravated by poor crankcase breathing as mentioned elsewhere in the blog and I for one would love to know an easy way to relieve the crancase back pressure but thats an issue for another day.

Motopsycho
07-04-2009, 12:11 PM
When inspecting the problem on the side stand. go under the bike from the right side as it is easier to see what is happening.

mitchmike
07-05-2009, 02:17 AM
Thanks for the reply Motopsycho , I can understand there are some cases where the oil leak is not coming from the weep hole, but conclusive in my case it unfortunately definetely is, and all this is documented in this post.

As Motopsycho as already mentioned, I have also lied under the bike on a stand with a torch, after a 20 mile ride and watch the oil drip out of the weep hole, this is the best way to see if your'e bike has the same issue.

Again some sound advice from Motopsycho if you suspect an oil leak from the weep hole, have the crankcase breathing checked out first, this was also done in my case.

Again another check is the oil filer, some of the factory ones are not sealing correctly due to machine chaffing, and may be need to tightened at a higher torque, until you can sand the chaffing.

So yes please dont jump to conclusions, because you have an oil leak its going to be the worst case scenario, as in my case. The purpose of the post is to warn other people of the problem, so they can get there biked fixed under warranty, as Im sure many people dont always look under there bike to check, and it could easily go unoticed.

pete roper
07-05-2009, 02:32 AM
I thought it had already been established that there was a run of cases that were poorly machined which led to this problem? I haven't gone back through the entire thread but from memory this had been established and those who had the problem were usually having their engines replaced as this was considered a cheaper option by the factory than warranty-ing an engine rebuild with case replacement? That to me would seem likely as there are a heap of hours involved in an engine rebuild on something like a Mana.

Problem is that when you get a issue like this it grows like a Gorgon grows heads! A few people have a problem, (And yes, I can understand their frustration and annoyance.) but then it becomes a FACT that is promulgated on the net and written in stone "Mana's have a HUGE defect that causes them to leak like a stuck pig and THEY ALL DO IT!" Which is of course utter bollocks!

I've just been through the same thing with the new Guzzi 8V motor. Piaggio cheaped out on the QC inspections and got the tappets made by 'Guiseppe's Pizza shop and Nitriding Works' in Innoccenti or somewhere and some of them failed in service. It is now 'Common Knowledge' that the 8V motor is 'Fundamentally Flawed', I've never heard such a bunch of bloody hysterical nonsense!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9ci5LIXBIuo/SashhkVl0kI/AAAAAAAAA58/VZGK48quf_0/s400/crying.baby.jpg

HTFU! What are you? Motorcyclists? Or Mice!

Pete

mitchmike
07-05-2009, 06:17 AM
Get a grip Pete..no-one is saying this is effecting all Mana's..read the whole thread!!, its not about crying over split milk..yes you are one of the lucky one who have not experienced the complete negligent and pig ignorant, deep rooted crap customer after sales experienced by myself and others from Piaggio.

To date I know of one person who had there engine replaced, I too was promised this but it got rejected and no reason given..this thread is not all about a fault effecting a small % of bikes, but more about the way it has been handled by Piaggio, and people reading this,need to make an informed decision on whether they want to take that risk when making a purchase from Piaggio.

Pete I wish you many more fault free miles on your Mana, but god help you when you are at the mercy of Piaggio in trying to get something serious fixed, and you certainly wont be getting my support. Dont bother replying to this thread unless you have something constructive and relevant to say, instead of posting some dumb ass picture..(WTF)...probably a reflection of the way your'e acting now..grow up!!!..by the way thanks for your support!!

pete roper
07-05-2009, 06:54 AM
Pete I wish you many more fault free miles on your Mana, but god help you when you are at the mercy of Piaggio in trying to get something serious fixed, and you certainly wont be getting my support. Dont bother replying to this thread unless you have something constructive and relevant to say, instead of posting some dumb ass picture..(WTF)...probably a reflection of the way your'e acting now..grow up!!!..by the way thanks for your support!!

I have little on no respect for how Piaggio does business BUT I DO know that if I stick in warranty requests? Well, I have yet to have one rejected! Perhaps it is a problem with the people who are *Handling* the warranty.

Furthermore I get a bit tired of people who continually bitch and moan about THEIR purchasing decisions. In this day and age where a wealth of information is only a 'Click' away it is worthwhile doing a bit of research before leaping into a purchase. Doing that would soon indicate that any of the Piaggio brands have a fairly patchy dealer network and the support found for some other brands may not be available. With that knowledge you can then weigh up whether you want an Aprilia or a Toyota Corolla.

Doesn't anybody take responsibility for their own actions any more? If I can't fix *it* myself I make damn sure there is someone nearby who can before I purchase. If I screw up in that decision then I have nobody to blame but myself, (And I've screwed up more than a few times in my life, it's called a 'Learning Experience'!).

There is NO SUCH THING AS PERFECTION! Get used to it!

If your warranty claim was rejected? Find out why. If you think it unjust go to a 'No-Win-No-Fee' bunch of ambulance chasers and furnish them with the info of the precedent. Get a grip yerself!

Pete

mitchmike
07-05-2009, 07:34 AM
Perhaps it is a problem with the people who are *Handling* the warranty.



You cant blame the dealers on this occasion, the warranty claim, in my case was dealt by the UK regional manager for Technical support, and the Piaggio's UK after Sale manager, both of these people have refused to contact me to help progress this, do I have to go to the CEO?. You wonder why so many Aprilia dealers are cutting ties, since Aprilia came under the control of Piaggio, because these dealers do there damm best to help there customers, but they get shitted on by Piaggio (root cause of a lot of the problems).

I and probably many others reading this, don't have the wealth and experience in troubleshoooting and fixing bikes like you do, but I do what I can. In this particular case, I dont have 2000 for the tools,to split the Mana crankcase and fit a water pump shaft, and I doubt many local non Aprilia dealers do eithier.

Its not about bitching and moaning, its about principles, if Piaggio cannot get rid of the dead/rotton wood at the core of there business, there will continue to be plenty more bitches like me, resulting in lost sales and a continued poor customer service reputation..

chrisrappl
07-05-2009, 02:49 PM
I wish that my leak was from the oil filter seal or from the sensor on the front of the engine. And I agree that leaks can travel and appear to be coming from some place else. I inserted a small diameter hose (actually a 28" long piece of insulation off of a #12 THHN standed wire) and routed it to the rear of the bike. The oil is dripping out of the end of the hose so I'm reasonably sure that the leak is in the oil seal on the waterpump shaft finding its way out the weep hole. If I use a little longer piece of hose, I could position it so that it drips onto the drive chain and instead of a problem it will become a feature. Who needs a Scott Oiler when you can have a Triumph/BSA style engine crankcase chain oiling system?

pete roper
07-05-2009, 08:55 PM
You cant blame the dealers on this occasion, the warranty claim, in my case was dealt by the UK regional manager for Technical support, and the Piaggio's UK after Sale manager, both of these people have refused to contact me to help progress this, do I have to go to the CEO?.

Firstly, how did you aproach them? Did you rant and rave? Shout and make accusations? Just askin' 'cos anybody who tries that with me immediately gets told to 'Take a number' and goes to the back of the queue.

Have you kept records of all your conversations and communications? If not that won't help your case so start again from scratch and record everything. Every conversation, every e-mail, every letter. If nothing happens you have recourse to the courts. The UK has adequate consumer protection legislation, the Sale of Goods act should cover this. You've bought a new product, it has a problem that can't be fixed, you should be able to get your money back. Once you have DOCUMENTED evidence of your pursuit of a reasonable outcome you can bung it into the hands of a lawyer and go to court.

Yup, it's a pain. No, you shouldn't have to do it. But it looks like you might so either get on with it or stop complaining. The ball is in your court.

Pete

mitchmike
07-06-2009, 02:57 AM
No I did not rant and rave, I have been very patient, polite and understanding, with the dealers, with Aprilia Customer services and with my letters to head office, I think that after 13 months though I should have every right to lose it..

I have an historical record of everything to do with this issue, but at the moment I am with another dealer who has the "correct tools" who may be able to fix the problem, so I will give them a chance if not, yes I will have to go down the legal route.

Thanks for the advice.

chrisrappl
08-23-2009, 05:47 AM
As you may recall, I have had oil seeping from the weep hole under the waterpump housing from the day I picked the bike up new last November. I brought it back to my original dealer two times for repair. While waiting six weeks for parts and tools to attempt the third repair, the dealer either lost or dropped the Aprilia franchise and could no longer work on my Mana.
Aprilia Customer care suggested that I take the bike to a dealer out of state. Luckily a local dealership picked up the Aprilia line and was willing to take care of my bike. They attempted one unsucessful repair and are now trying to get the parts and tools from the factory to split the cases and replace the shaft and seals. I've suggested that they ask the factory if they would be willing to exchange the engine to avoid having to split the cases. The bike is 9 months old with 1250 miles and has now been in the shop 31 days and counting. I really like this bike and sure would like to ride it again. I couldn't use it to ride cross-country this summer. Pulled out the '74 R90S and put 7,000 miles on it with no problems other than a headlight bulb and a rear tire when I got to San Diego. A group of us will be riding to the Barber Vintage festival in October. I hope the Mana is ready. If not I guess the Beemer is gonna get tapped again.

mitchmike
08-23-2009, 08:24 AM
Exactly the same scenario as chrisrappl, requested that the engine should be replaced but piaggio refused the warranty claim and my second dealer has to split the case and replace the water pump shaft, still waiting to hear from the dealer about the parts, which were ordered 9th July. Its a shame as this has been the only thing that has gone wrong with the bike since new.

Micah / AF1 Racing
08-23-2009, 09:31 AM
Fuck! This thread is driving me crazy. Get Aprilia to pay to ship the engine over here, I will be happy to fix it! The Mana motor is like the simplest non scooter 4T I have ever worked on, seriously this should have been resolved a LONG time ago!

pete roper
08-23-2009, 05:35 PM
Fuck! This thread is driving me crazy. Get Aprilia to pay to ship the engine over here, I will be happy to fix it! The Mana motor is like the simplest non scooter 4T I have ever worked on, seriously this should have been resolved a LONG time ago!

I hear and understand the frustration Micah. I really can't understand what the problem is. As far as I can make out the only reason to replace the motor wholus-bollus would be because it is cheaper to do that than any other option.

The Mana donk IS simple and so grossly under-powered that it HAS to be bulletproof. Fixing it, even if it is a case defect, shouldn't be that difficult???

Pete

chrisrappl
09-01-2009, 05:22 PM
I got my bike back today. It has spent a total of 43 days in the shop on three occasions with two dealers. The owner and the mechanic at the new shop did all that they could to get the parts and tools and ended up taking the engine out of the frame, splitting the cases and replacing the shaft and seals. I believe that the owner spent some big bucks on tools that he may not use again. I'm glad that I have these guys and that they were willing to work on my bike even though I didn't buy it from them (selling dealer is no longer an Aprilia dealer).

There are some scuffs and scratches on both engine cases from the teardown and the tank trim and radiator trim on the right side have some small chips in the paint that weren't there before the repair. We'll see if Aprilia will help, but, I kinda doubt it. I don't know how they would fix the engine cases anyway.

The good new is that the leak appears to be fixed.

I know that the mechanic wanted to do it right and make sure that it was really fixed. He put 150 miles on the bike while he had it. And I appreciate the fact that he rode it enough to prove to himself that it was fixed.

Time to put some miles on this baby.

mitchmike
09-02-2009, 03:48 PM
Thats fantastic news, I am glad that my thread has highlighted this issue and has at least successfully resolved the issue for a few Mana owners, would of been pretty expensive to have this fixed outside the warranty period.

My bike is booked in next week to have the same repair job done, so hopefully we can put this thread to rest!!, I am sure that would please a few people on this forum , lets hope so...

Micah / AF1 Racing
09-02-2009, 04:20 PM
My frustration is probably the same as yours, this is just not the sort of thing that should take a year to resolve. It is an easy enough fix. Cheers, here is to hoping the "fix" takes.

My Mana is still kicking ass, rode it a few miles yesterday while the temps were a bit cooler, great bike.

alfamoi
10-05-2009, 02:21 PM
:) the begin of the end of this :fangs: thread...
still a little patience mitchmike

mitchmike
10-05-2009, 03:58 PM
What can I say...the dealer took the business decision not to buy the tool that splits the crankcase as they felt it would only be used once. They do not get any subsidy on these specialist tools (the dealer had the water pump shaft oil seal punch, but not the big coned shaped tool). So the water pump shaft has not been replaced, so they replaced all the seal's again, but this time the mechanical seal was replaced. They have ridden 230 miles without a leak, I have just picked up the bike and seems ok so far. If it does leak again the dealer may not have no choice but to buy this tool ,as they will be compromising there dealership. So hopefully this will be the beginning of the end..or the story continues..we will see.

oldspice
10-05-2009, 06:18 PM
Man, what an ordeal. I feel for you guys. Any idea how many Manas are out there with this machining problem? Obviously, Aprilia had fixed this through production as not all Manas are affected. I wonder if there would be a way to determine which Manas have the issue and which ones don't. I'm looking at an 08 Mana and would like to know in advance whether it has the issue or not.

Best of luck and let's hope you're fixed and you can finally enjoy riding the bike!

SnowMonkey
10-06-2009, 08:01 AM
Oldspice- I've got this issue as well. It's fairly minimal and the optimist in me is hoping it will just go away. (soon, I hope) But it is (at least in my case) fairly easy to spot an offending leak. Start your Mana and let it idle for 5-10 minutes, get on your knees and examine the underside (close to exhaust pipe) for the dreaded oil drop.

oldspice
10-06-2009, 09:35 AM
Oldspice- I've got this issue as well. It's fairly minimal and the optimist in me is hoping it will just go away. (soon, I hope) But it is (at least in my case) fairly easy to spot an offending leak. Start your Mana and let it idle for 5-10 minutes, get on your knees and examine the underside (close to exhaust pipe) for the dreaded oil drop.
Good to know, thanks for the tip. I haven't picked up a Mana yet, but have found a few near me (well, within a 200 mile radius of me!). I plan on taking a day here in the next couple of weeks and inspecting my options. Now, I know what to look for, thanks.

SilverSurfer79
11-28-2009, 10:13 PM
I'm new here. Had my Mana for 3 months now and just heard of this problem. So I just checked my bike out. Sure 'nuff got a drip within 30 seconds of startup. Not comming from the filter or sensor or bolt holes. What do I need to do to get this rectified?

SilverSurfer79
11-29-2009, 09:31 AM
Guess I should start by filling out the warrantee papers and report the problem in a couple of months huh?

armadillored
11-29-2009, 10:25 AM
Boy, after reading all 8 pages of this post I am reconsidering buying a Mana next April. I had a computor problem with my MP3-400 that took 31 days to fix (under warranty) and was only resolved when I told my dealer I was going to inact the Lemon law. don't want to go thru anything like this again, so I'll have to reconsider my second choice - BMW.

kboe
11-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Don't let this scare you away from an awesome bike. This flaw doesn't affect every Mana out there.

armadillored
11-29-2009, 05:01 PM
It may not be in every Mana, but those that have it aren't supported by the Piaggio/Aprilio service / warranty group without threats of legal action. I realize the dealers try to get Piaggio to acknowledge the problem (my local dealer really pushed hard for a resolution with my MP3) so I can't fault the dealers. Pure and simple it's lousy customer service which was detailed here and on the Vespa forum with a few other warranty problems.
Anyone reading these posts and the ones on the Vespa forum whould think twice about buying any Piaggio product.

pete roper
11-29-2009, 07:30 PM
Boy, after reading all 8 pages of this post I am reconsidering buying a Mana next April. I had a computor problem with my MP3-400 that took 31 days to fix (under warranty) and was only resolved when I told my dealer I was going to inact the Lemon law. don't want to go thru anything like this again, so I'll have to reconsider my second choice - BMW.


Whenever I see this sort of response it always reminds me of these

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=588849979264557085&ei=IhATS468OJG6wgPp3cnpCg&q=fainting+goats&hl=en#

Nothing is perfect. Everything can have problems. It must be awful to go through life being so timid and paranoid. I'm genuinely sorry for you!

FWIW BMW have never been able to build a decent gearbox and if you do a search on the shaft drive twins final drive problems you'll probably have kittens!

Pete

armadillored
11-29-2009, 08:30 PM
I happen to have one of those shaft drive twins and have never had a problem with it or the 32 other BMW's I had back in the late 70's.
Sure any bike can have problems but that is not what I was referring to. It's the service one gets from the manufacturer when one does have a problem. Which with Piaggio is really poor.

motoken
11-30-2009, 11:45 AM
I don't know if the problem is as much Piaggio's fault as it is the dealer's fault. Mitchmike's dealer didn't want to buy the correct tools, Chrisrappl had to go to two different dealers to get it fixed. My bike had the same problem but my dealer wanted to rectify it as much as I did. It was down for a little longer than I wanted but they got the problem solved and I now have 9,000 miles on it trouble free. Even the guys at AF1 said it was an easy fix. Don't give up on the Mana, I knew it was a sweet bike when I bought it but I like it more now than the day I bought it.

armadillored
11-30-2009, 04:09 PM
Rethinking about all this, I figure that most if not all 2010 models will have the leak problem already fixed.

ciscotk
12-01-2009, 04:05 AM
I am considering buying a Mana next spring. I did test ride the bike a few months back in the Netherlands and am convinced about its qualities. This whole oil leaking issue makes me a little cautious. I am now riding a BMW R1150 whitout any technical problems.
What makes you think 2010 models will not have leak problems? Is it resolved by the Italian factory, US distributor or a specific US dealer?

armadillored
12-02-2009, 08:25 AM
I am considering buying a Mana next spring. I did test ride the bike a few months back in the Netherlands and am convinced about its qualities. This whole oil leaking issue makes me a little cautious. I am now riding a BMW R1150 whitout any technical problems.
What makes you think 2010 models will not have leak problems? Is it resolved by the Italian factory, US distributor or a specific US dealer?

I'm sure the factory has looked into this issue as some warranty claims were made. I would think the factory would look into the cause and fix it to eliminate any future claims. (at least that makes sense to me)

mitchmike
02-15-2010, 06:14 PM
It is not so much as to whether the problem will still exist in the 2010 Models, it is more of a case as to whether the dealer you buy the bike from will invest in the expensive tools to repair the problem, albeit an oil leak or anything else.

With this issue, I know of one person who has had a complete engine replaced, Piagio will expect the dealer to go through the process of troubleshooting the fault before it gets to that stage, which may include replacing seals and splitting the crankcase, the latter will involve purchasing expensive specialist tools.

To conclude in my case I had 3 sets of seals replaced and Piagio wanted the dealer to split the case to replace the water pump shaft, both the dealers I dealt with, were not willing to pay for the cost of the tools (specific only for the Mana) to do this, and were unable to source the tools elsewhere. Luckily in my case the oil leak is more or less gone and nothing like it was, so the 3rd set of seals were replaced with the correct punch tool and after a period of bedding in, has retained the leak.

If the oil leak was to return my only recourse was to take legal action against the dealer as they are obligated to carry out repairs under warranty. I can also understand the dealers point of view, as to why they have to pay over 2000 for tools they may only use only once!, for what is effectively a manufacturing fault.

My advice would be to speak to a dealer before buying and express your concerns if something went wrong, and ask do they have all the tools already?, and if they will be willling to purchase if it meant only using them once.

Maybe manufacturers and designers should get together and design engines/parts that can be repaired using universals tools rather than specific to an individual engine/part (makes sense to me, but may not be possible..not an expert).

To add from almost 2 years of ownership this is the only issue Ive had to date to what is a fantastic bike. So do your research, ask questions and choose a dealer who will support you when things go wrong, and that goes with any bike you buy, I certainly will be next time.

mindi
02-17-2010, 10:18 AM
Interesting thread.... Wondering if anyone who purchased 09 or 10 manas are noticing this same problem? Thanks....

Mitchmike- glad to hear that your ordeal seems to be over. Hope it stays that way, and you finally get to enjoy the bike worry free.

tannerman007
02-17-2010, 01:38 PM
Mines leaking Built April 2009

Jim web
02-17-2010, 06:02 PM
Mines good so far 3,000 miles bought it in sept 08

xan21340
03-01-2010, 07:37 AM
I have the 2010 GT. No leak. Since reading this thread I have watched so very carefully. I put down two strips of shop towels every night under the bike when I put it up. Nothing. No drop of anything. Anywhere. Hate it for any of you that got a bad one. This is a good bike. And I have owned them all since 1971. So, if you are considering buying a Mana, I think you are buying a great bike. However, when and if something goes wrong, you are mostly figuring it out on your own with folks who will talk to you in here and elsewhere. Anyway, the 2010 is not leaking that I own.

Motopsycho
03-01-2010, 09:20 AM
Red 09 here with 2500 miles.. no leak.
filter leaked a few drops when new but stopped after 200 miles.

Ward
03-01-2010, 11:37 AM
I have a new GT with 500 miles - no leaks so far . . . :banana:

durdle
03-01-2010, 02:59 PM
I just bought my Mana GT last week (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198566&page=2). After 'bout 70 miles I had some oil and road grime on bottom of the casting near the bleed hole but it didn't appear to be coming from there. I noticed some moisture (oil feel) at the bottom of the filter. I cleaned off the bottom, tightened the filter just a smidge - took it out for about 15 miles. Back home no - oil on the underside. Maybe I got lucky!!!

SilverSurfer79
03-03-2010, 05:50 PM
Yeah sound like you did.

SnowMonkey
05-03-2010, 03:12 PM
I need an opinion. I've got the dreaded leak. My dealer closed up his shop and the nearest Aprilia dealer is 100 miles away (and I don't know how competent they are). It is only a very small leak....maybe one or two small drops per ride and never when the engine is off. My question is: Should I even bother with the repair? (background info...I just had my shower 'fixed' from a small leak by a professional plumber...it's worse than before.) Also, I'd rather have a tiny leak than scarred housing (I understand the mechanicics are sometimes less than precise when opening the casings.) BUT, would there be any damage from continued leak? Or, a safety issue? Help me guys, my warrantee expires soon.

shadyman
05-03-2010, 03:26 PM
what's your new dealers name?

armadillored
05-03-2010, 04:29 PM
I would inform the new dealer in an e-mail or letter so he has a record of the ongoing problem before the warranty expires. Then if it gets worse and you want to have it repaired, you can get some help from Aprilia.

I remember the guys that bought Harleys back in the 60's and 70's and expected them to leak. Almost every one had a leak somewhere and they put up with it. The very minor leak the Manas have is nothing in compairson. You can put up with the leak by wipeing it off after or before every ride, get it fixed at a dealers (very time consuming), or put a small hose on it and let it drain lower where it wont get on anything (a small fuel hose from a chain saw or weed whacker would probably fit).

SnowMonkey
05-04-2010, 07:44 AM
Shadyman- I haven't narrowed down a new dealer yet. There's a couple in Vermont (the closest...100 miles or so), one in Mass. and one in Conn. I've been looking at. Any suggestions? I'm up here in Lake George, NY (home of Americade and on occasion, moose and black bears).

shadyman
05-04-2010, 10:01 AM
My dealer (Team Effor) is in Wilkesbarre, & I've been happy with them. I'ld probably call a dealer & ask for the service manager & run it by him. You hate to mess with it, but on the other hand you don't want it to take a shit a year from now. Tough call.

tannerman007
05-04-2010, 11:55 AM
My dealer (Team Effor) is in Wilkesbarre, & I've been happy with them. I'ld probably call a dealer & ask for the service manager & run it by him. You hate to mess with it, but on the other hand you don't want it to take a shit a year from now. Tough call.

Def not, as per my other post, on inspection my small oil leak was a disaster waiting to happen. a chunk the size of a fingure nail missing behid a shaft oil seal. fortunatly the chucnk was still trapped and had not gone into the engine . Went to dealers today, Aoprilia have sent 4 engine casings with differnt numbers, we only need two but cant work out which ones. Talk about useless!
The longer this goes on the more chance there is of someone dropping something on the boxes of bits from my bike, wont be happy if it comes back with ANY marks.

:gunner:

revorg
05-04-2010, 12:06 PM
I would recommend New Haven Power Sports in Connecticut. I would be wary of others in Connecticut. NHPS are good people and have qualified mechanics.

Eurodriver
07-27-2012, 09:44 PM
Has this issue been resolved? I have an '09 Mana with 850 miles on it leaking oil out of the weep hole.

armadillored
07-28-2012, 07:56 AM
Has this issue been resolved? I have an '09 Mana with 850 miles on it leaking oil out of the weep hole.

I have heard/read that Aprilia has warranted the repair for some of these leaks, and others have just put up with the leak and wiped the oil off every now and again.
If your worried about it then contact your dealer and have them contact Aprilia to see what they will do about it.

wthammond
02-21-2014, 10:11 PM
OK I realize this is old news, but I am a new owner of a 2009 Mana I bought from AF1 with 2000 or so miles on the clock. I have noted a couple drops of oil leaking from the 'weep hole' after a good ride, and I don't think they are coming from the oil filter. I previously had a 2002 Futura which had a similar leak, that unfortunately met a fiery death in my driveway. I think it was the most beautiful motorcycle I have ever seen and I miss it every day. I also have a 2001 500 scarabeo that loses a drop or two after a ride. I also think it is a beautiful machine, in its own way. I'm blessed enough to be able to drive a 2010 Lexus as my daily driver. It does not leak anything. It also does not exite me in the least, and if it burned to a crisp in my driveway I would not miss it for a moment. Should Piaggo/Aprilia make beautiful things that don't leak - yes in this day and age. Should the fact they don't deter us from keeping these beautiful bikes? Not in my opinion. Ride them, enjoy them, admire how beautiful they look in your garage. A drip or two - it's how you know they are alive!

armadillored
02-22-2014, 08:04 AM
Although I don't have my Mana anymore, it had the leak abt very minor. The '09 is out of warranty and replacing the seal would be very expensive. Probably not worth the cost. If I still had it I would glue a hose to the hole and route it to the rear.

wthammond
02-22-2014, 11:39 PM
Certainly the fix would be beyond what I have invested in the bike. I hope that the minor leak does not increase necessitating anything more than the occasional wipedown! Right now I plan to ride and enjoy it. I'll keep the forum UTD on how it goes.

wthammond
08-29-2015, 08:39 PM
Ok been about one and 1 1/2 years since last update. Still have the mana. Love it, though those of us who do are a small fraternity. Put about 2500 miles on it and the small post ride drop has not changed. Still get a drop nothing that has ever hit the floor. So I am chalking it up to Italian Charm. Keep the shiny side up!