PDA

View Full Version : Air Dryer ???



WTB
08-24-2008, 04:45 PM
If the compressor is a closed system and the moisture is entering the system through the throttle body has any one tried catching the moisure before the air filter???

Increase the intake hose size install as light and as large as possible ( Air Dryer) in the line,remove all air box restrictions( nothing past the filter).

If we stop the moisure before it gets to the compressor and crank. The small amount of oil that rides the compressed air line and reaches the cylinder won't matter.

It seems that we would want as good of air filtration ( moisture and dust) as we good acheive. Neither dust nor water should be allowed near the crank.

I wonder if the original air box restrictions are in place to "slow" down the air before it hits the filter???

What are thoughts on a pre-filter air dryer???

HONDARACER
08-24-2008, 08:34 PM
I believe the compressor draws its filtered air right from the cranckcase, so it would be impossible to "DRY" the air berore its compressed. Any time air is compressed, water is a byproduct and manifests itself in the Ditech as a sludgy film resulting from the absorbtion of some of the engine oil and water mixing together. It seems people who ride and live in very humid areas encounter the worst problems, which I believe are clogging of the air injector. Some people also claim to live in these areas and have never had an issue. Perhaps its also related to the type of oil used and its affinity to mix with water.

WTB
08-25-2008, 06:28 AM
I was reading a post where Muchaco posted a diagram of the Ditech system. The diagram shows the compressor drawing it's air from the throttle body, hence directly from the air filter and intake.

If this is "not" how things work, will someone please post an explaination.

I understand that in all compressed air systems "moisture is a bi-product". The compressor is taking air from the environment and compressing it.

Someone please explain why you can't send dry air to the compressor???

Thanks

Bill

muchacho
08-25-2008, 09:40 AM
I was reading a post where Muchaco posted a diagram of the Ditech system. The diagram shows the compressor drawing it's air from the throttle body, hence directly from the air filter and intake.

If this is "not" how things work, will someone please post an explaination.

I understand that in all compressed air systems "moisture is a bi-product". The compressor is taking air from the environment and compressing it.

Someone please explain why you can't send dry air to the compressor???

Thanks

BillDiffusion would quickly balance the moisture content of the air that you are trying "dry".

WTB
08-25-2008, 10:06 AM
Diffusion would quickly balance the moisture content of the air that you are trying "dry".

Would you please explain what you mean "diffusion" and "balancing".

Thanks

Bill

muchacho
08-25-2008, 11:02 AM
Diffusion - like in science. Going from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration.

Look up the formula npvr

Ciudale
08-25-2008, 11:23 AM
Compressor takes the air from the crankcase, the same air that has been dust filtered at the airbox. Your idea would work if you could remove the water contained in the air before it enters the airbox, but I doubt such thing is possible in the small amount of space allowed under the bike...

veloracermike
08-25-2008, 12:42 PM
This idea cannot work. First the air would have to super heated to evaporate all the water vapor in such short period of time. Then you'd have to figure out some way to expel the water vapor. Even if this could be done you've now heated the air going to the engine, lowering density of the air (colder air higher density/hotter air lower density). This would affect the engines performance in a negative way. The engineering to do this would be pretty intense and not worth the time or money.

WTB
08-25-2008, 01:34 PM
This idea cannot work. First the air would have to super heated to evaporate all the water vapor in such short period of time. Then you'd have to figure out some way to expel the water vapor. Even if this could be done you've now heated the air going to the engine, lowering density of the air (colder air higher density/hotter air lower density). This would affect the engines performance in a negative way. The engineering to do this would be pretty intense and not worth the time or money.


I am suggesting an in line "Intake Hose" desiccant of some sort. A water trap before the filter.

veloracermike
08-25-2008, 02:03 PM
I am suggesting an in line "Intake Hose" desiccant of some sort. A water trap before the filter.

Gotcha, well would one of these that would be small enough even have a high enough CFM?

WTB
08-25-2008, 03:24 PM
Gotcha, well would one of these that would be small enough even have a high enough CFM?

After reading a palethera of posts and threads and being a "Wrench Head" 50 of 52 years of life I am going to approach things a little differently.I want to keep my SR a 50cc. I do want to get the most from this well built engine as superior body and frame design.

I have been in the motorized mode of transportation fields for over 30 years and have seen many odd designs that work very well.

I have seen many different intake OEM designs and aftermarket designs.A lot of the designs are strictly for fit and asthetics.

I have a decided that what little oil in the air line that is reaching the head is just fine by it self. The moisure that is present is "NOT". I don't feel that oil and water should be cohabitating in the compressor.

No one has said for sure whether or not the Italians designed that tiny bit of oil to be in the air line or if it was a mistake.Not thinking about the moisure issue was a mistake. Is this tiny bit of oil by itself enough to foul plugs and cause any performance issues???Probablly not.

Any, gear box, transmission,motor,compressor where there is oil present probably should not have water present.

I will find an effective desiccant to pull moisture quickly. Air flow will be an issue at just that. I plan on using the stock box completely derestricted.I will utilize a smooth bore, large diameter intake pipe. I will fabricate a connector from the box to the intake pipe. The pipe or pipes will be the full lenght to allow the air to become liquid and flow. The stock filter should be fine.

My Dad would say that the scoot was "PERSNICKITY". There are an awfull lot of variables that affect the fine machines.I believe eliminating moisture before the throttle body is doable.


DOES ANY ONE HAVE STOCK CFM REQUIREMENTS?

DOES ANY ONE HAVE INJECTED AIR PSI REQUIREMENTS?

We are limited to space in the body. Is the full lenght hose for the transcover needed???

High Gain Tuning
08-25-2008, 10:00 PM
Water condensation is a by-product of all compressors. All air contains moisture and when it is compressed 10-15 times; its temperature is raised 10-15 times.

Now you have hot moist air... The heat is transferring from hot to cold through the compressor tank or in the case of the SR50 through the hose. As this occurs, the hot moist vapor condenses into a liquid. You may know that all air compressor tanks have a drain valve at the very bottom so this moisture can be drained.

The oil that also accumulates in the hose is the 2 stroke oil that lubricates the piston and cylinder wall of the compressor. It doesn't stay down as it does in the combustion cylinder because there is no explosion occurring to blow it down. I would be a lot more worried if there was no oil collecting in the hose.

HONDARACER
08-26-2008, 08:35 AM
As High-Gain said, the most practical way to remove the water is after its been compressed. Its easier to brand the cattle once there all in a pen, rather than when there in the field. If you do some searching on water traps you will come across some fine pics of the sludge captured in the high pressure line, before it reaches the injector. A simple drain once in a while gets rid of all the goop.

YOu kinda remind me of some of my friends who try to change the laws of physics to suit there needs. Usually due to lack of finances.

WTB
08-26-2008, 01:41 PM
As High-Gain said, the most practical way to remove the water is after its been compressed. Its easier to brand the cattle once there all in a pen, rather than when there in the field. If you do some searching on water traps you will come across some fine pics of the sludge captured in the high pressure line, before it reaches the injector. A simple drain once in a while gets rid of all the goop.

YOu kinda remind me of some of my friends who try to change the laws of physics to suit there needs. Usually due to lack of finances.

I'll ask this questiion once more." Is the oil in the air line an Aprilia design or is it a flaw in the system design"?

This forum seems to have alot of experts.Does anyone actually know the answer??

If Aprilia designed the system to have that small amount of oil reach the cylinder then what if any long term problems result from the water trap removing the oil as well as the moisture.

I am not trying "change the laws of physics" to fit my needs as you suggest. ("What ever the heck you mean by that statement"). And finances are not an issue. ""Heck" I have bought and purchased and installed two different traps. At the current time I do not have one installed.

I am just looking at the intake of moisture into the crank case in a little different angle. On a standard compressor there is no way to regulate or stop "Air Moisture" before the compressor. The only options are a "Water Filter" inline after the compressor and the tank has a drain.

Using the example of a standard air compressor and it's properties are fine.Although, this is not a standard air compressor but a crank case that is acting as a compressor and has an air injector line running from it to the head.

I am not questioning the validity of the "water trap". It is fact that oil and water do not mix and should not be introduced through the air injector into the cylinder.