PDA

View Full Version : 2004 Dyno Work, cat, no cats, cored pipes



Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 11:29 AM
Well we finally decided to run (break in) our 2004 RSVR on the dyno...and with killer results. In the first graph you will see a customer bike dynoed with and then without the catalyists in the pipes but no ther changes. This brought very little in the way of increased output...like a peak of 1.9bhp. The huge dip at 6,000 rpm was a real concern for me....I was very releived to see the numbers when we switched over to the Milleman core kit, this fixed the huge hole in the midrange...and boosted torque by 9.5ft/lbs at 6,000rpm with the promise of more to come.

The core kit will make the bike run leaner than the ideal and will require either an Axone remap or another solution to get additional fueling. The bike was not dangerously lean but was far from ideal....at part throttle cruise the rear header pipe was glowing a dim red....but it does that with the stocker too.

We now have the EVO race airkits in stock and will be testing those later today if time permits.

Until our bike is remapped we will not be doing a race fuel test sinc the oxygenated VP Ultimate 4 we use would make the RSVR too lean for safe operation. We saw as high as 109.5 bhp on the dyno last night with the cool dense winter air but that correct down to the 106.6 you see on the graph.

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 11:32 AM
Here is the difference made by either putting on a set of slip ons or doing the recore kit....this was amazing, a gain of 9.5 ft/lbs of torque and over 10 bhp around 6,000rpm....right where you will feel it!

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 11:34 AM
Here is a graph showing the EGA trace, the dashed lines along the bottom of the graph. The stock bike is in red, at about 7-8% CO, richer than the normally ideal value of around 5% CO. The blue line is the recored and cats out trace, lean at around 2-3% CO....more fuel would have given us a few more bhp.

RSVracer
12-19-2003, 11:35 AM
why do your peak numbers seem so low compared to the usual 115-120 posted by everyone else? I'm also curious to know if you guys have disabled or gutted the flapper valve on this particular bike as I'm sure it would net another small gain on the dyno.

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 11:45 AM
Without getting into the huge "who's dyno is better" debate....let me just say that our dyno reads about 10-15% lower than those types used by magazines. Our's reads true horsepower and while those numbers are lower than the Dynojet style dynos it is really very accurate and consistent. I think this bike will get into the lower 120's even on our dyno as r&d proceeds. The motor had less than 100miles on it when it went on the roller last night! I am breaking it in in the www.mototuneusa.com way.

We bought our EC997 because it was the best dyno we could afford at $30,000 and is truely an awesome research and development tool when combined with a 4 gas EGA. On this type of dyno changes in wheel or tire weight and gearing do not effect the rear wheel bhp numbers....on a dynojet if you put on a new magnesium rear wheel the dyno will say you are making more power....this is simply untrue. The lighter wheel or different gearing will just accelerate the roller faster....our dyno works in steady state, for this test each of the circles represents where the motor was held at wide open throttle and a constant rpm while the load cell measured the torque produced at that rpm...much better way to skin a cat!

Dvus
12-19-2003, 12:25 PM
Thanks for the numbers. Shows a linear curve like how it feels. SO none of the dynos show the Axone remap?

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 12:33 PM
None of the graphs show any axone remap...not yet.

clarkie49
12-19-2003, 12:47 PM
good stuff!

i think that with the stock street map in the bike at part throttle (closed loop) the bike will always try to achieve 14.7:1 a/f which is programed into the ECU.

if you add pipes or an airkit the bike (at part throttle) will always adjust the fuel mixture to go to the predetermined setting.

the problem is when you go wide open because the bike will go to the open loop map which is fixed and then you will have problems.

this is what i 'think' is happening, you guys may be able to confirm this. if you did a test at part throttle the a/f (or co reading) should be the same weather you had the stock pipes, open pipes or airkit in place. the power would be different but the a/f should remain constant.

if it doesnt then, then closed loop fuel injection system may not really be closed loop.

i think i read somewhere that the bike switches to open loop conditions at 100% throttle and 8,000 + rpm. correct me if i am wrong

th flapper valve opens around 30% + throttle position and 6,500 + rpm.

anyway, like i said, good work!

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 12:52 PM
The bike does seem to run the same, extremely lean at light throttle cruise reguardless of mods. I do beleive the injection goes into open loop mode sooner than 100% throttle opening though.

clarkie49
12-19-2003, 12:52 PM
one thing you could try is to increase the fuel pressure, this would not make a difference at cruising throttle position but at WOT it will adjust the a/f.

might be worth a shot

ok, butting out now:D

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 12:54 PM
Hopefully soon a Tuneboy type tuning interface will become available to allow cylinder to cylinder mapping as well as cylinder to cylinder ignition trims...to get the 100% best out of our new toy!

Dvus
12-19-2003, 01:15 PM
So for the poser values and because loud pipes saves lives. What do you guys think of the sound of the exhaust.

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 01:28 PM
I love the sound of these pipes, they are loud but, they sound awesome, like a twin should sound.

Norcal Factory
12-19-2003, 02:27 PM
Thanks Micah!

We love the info - especially since you sell various products yet you tested Milliman's upgrade. That's because you see being a member of the Aprilia community is more important than having rules like "we only dyno what we sell". That attitude is whyI was sure to order frame savers from you guys!

I really need to see a comparison of the Milieman upgrade Vs. the BlueFlame pipes with the race mapping. Or at least teh MIllieman with race maps.

Thanks a lot!

Can we see it before Chrismas? Huh Santa?

TheClaw
12-19-2003, 02:48 PM
Great work Micah. Can't wait to see the charts with the milleman pipes and the new race map dialed into the chip. I am waiting to get my milleman kit as we speak.

Speaking of dyno theory. Where could i find some good info on how they work and the different types.

jeff

Dvus
12-19-2003, 03:04 PM
For the money and the great looking stock pipes. Those gains are very cheap compared to other slip-ons. Very healthy power gains. The race map feels like all the dips were completely gone. The throttle response improved much more all through out the rev range. If you haven't gotten it done. Do it soon. Bang for the buck.

milleman
12-19-2003, 03:27 PM
Ya I noticed the Diff with the race map......Now I'm gonna mod the air box

Also have an Idea to help the flapper


Oh Ya Thank for the test Micah......Thats with no ram air also


On the map I felt like 2+ ass Dyno Hp......I was right on on the pipes!

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-19-2003, 04:23 PM
I will test anything...and sell it if it works to my satisfaction. I really like the idea of the milleman kit since it keeps the awesome looking stock silencers.

Here is agood link for dyno theory, biased but pretty much right on.... http://www.factorypro.com/ , click the link about dyno tech on the left side.

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-21-2003, 02:21 PM
We have now installed the EVO race air kit and done the dyno work...it works very well in the upper to high rpm area. Also tested has been the ram air system, it is much better than the past unit...we ran out of pump gas prior to completeing the test but we will re run the tests on Monday and publish the data afterwards. The bike definitely needs richer mapping with these mods to get the most out of it. I think we will be near 120bhp on our FP dyno in a month or two and possibly a lot more if we can get the correct software to remap each cylinder according to its needs. The before and after graphs are starting to look very different, I am amazed at how good the new 2004 spec bike is.

clarkie49
12-21-2003, 02:52 PM
UNLEASH THE POWER!!!!! :rambo:

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-21-2003, 02:54 PM
Clarkie....I am on it brother! When we get the ability to truely program the ecu and switch to Ultimate 4 fuel and a lot of other little tweaks this thing is going to be a weapon....The torque it now makes 6-8000 rpm is amazing.

clarkie49
12-21-2003, 03:11 PM
sweet

how do you feel about increasing the fuel pressure to increase the mixture to make it richer.

i have done this and it does work, it may not be exactly perfect but $80 for the EVO pressure regulator is cheaper than a pciii

just a thought........and you wont have to wait until someone developes the tuning software

milleman
12-21-2003, 09:21 PM
Factory pro can do a better remap but they need a mule........Its in north bay cali...If any one has a bike they can put on the dyno!

Btw the Factory race map is decent.....I was pullin the front tire up at over 100 today 47 degree's super dense wet air :rolleyes:


I hit the rev limiter today for the first time.....I got flame :happy:


Micah, did you block open the flappper?.....Just curious to see what number's that makes

clarkie49
12-21-2003, 09:43 PM
i would be interested to know how Marc is going to crack the CAN protocol to reprogram the ECU.

i am sure it will be done, and Aprilia SPA are going to crap their pants when someone does :eek:

DRT-Tuning
12-22-2003, 06:47 AM
Interesting to see these dyno graphs.

I do have a question regarding the "break-in secrets" on mototuneusa. Don't worry, I will not going to argue with it, I do have one question.
I wonder if there are similar articles or secrets if you will for breakingin a 2-stroke engine, specifically ones that use a single piston ring.

clarkie49
12-22-2003, 08:33 AM
on my Honda 250GP bike i would be doing running the rings in on the warmup lap of a race and then just rip on it!

even if i had installed a new crank and cylinders i would do one heat cycle and then rip it, as long as the temp is up to 55'C and doesnt go over 75'C it was ok.

i was using HRC A-kit rings that required chamfering the rings grove after every session, a total pain in the ass but they were worth hp for the effort of pulling cylinders off between races.

ahhhhhhh, fuel injected four strokes are so simple, now if only i could figure out what the valve thingies do:D

personally i think the most important thing to do when building a motor is to wash the cylinders with warm soap and water and leave the standing over night. this will cuase a thin layer of oxydation to form on the cylinder walls (yep, even on the nikasil) ans if you install the pistons/rings dry the rings will seat on the first startup.

but that is just the way i build a race motor. on a side note, the RS250 Aprilia i used to race went through 2 pistons to 1 set of rings, yep not what you would think. the rings are so feak'n hard that the pistons will wear before the rings:D

ok, back to the four-bangers

DRT-Tuning
12-22-2003, 10:16 AM
MIcah or anyone,

could you please xplain to me (or correct me if i'm wrong) but it seems or at least I read something along the lines of that if you want maximum revvs, the a/f mixture should be lean? Or a lean mixture will rev out more in top?

I bet this goes for both 2 and 4stroke. I myself always have my mixture set a bit richer than optimum, so have some extra cooling effect on my air-cooled 2stroker which revvs about 12.500rpm all of the time (ie it's a moped with automatich pulley system "gearing" so wheter I drive 10 or 75mph it's always revving out on that 12.500 (to keep it in the powerband)

And I think that witha lean mixture (of course if it's ll true in the 1st place) would kill that engine in no-time.(?)

DRT-Tuning
12-22-2003, 10:19 AM
chamfering the rings grove

What exactly is chamfering?

milleman
12-22-2003, 11:22 AM
Micah, How many miles are on your bike......Mine has 3500mi on it now and its startin to make some real power!

Today I'm gonna try blocking the flapper open about 1/4 to 1/2 in....to see what a diff that makes in the feel of the power curve.

I noticed yeterday that at 160mph it felt like the ram air was addin some big power! but when you close the throttle over 100 it makes it stumble slightly....thats why I think opening it up the flapper a little it will allow some high pressure air in the air box!

clarkie49
12-22-2003, 11:38 AM
milleman - remember high velocity is low pressure

more air plus more fuel = right a/f ratio

add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure
add more fuel pressure


:D :D :D

Dvus
12-22-2003, 11:44 AM
So are you saying to get the fuel pressure kit from evo?

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-22-2003, 11:50 AM
My motor has only about 150 miles on it right now. It is being broken in on the dyno the same it will be used at the track. I too agree that either two strokes or four stokes should be assembled with dry (soap washed) cylinders and rings...this is how I build my two stroke race motors.

The flapper test will be done tonite...I am pretty sure that it is mainly a noise dampner but some folks say otherwise...we shall see.

I have the EVO fuel pressure modifier ready to go, this will be required soon as the bike is pretty lean under all conditions with the stock map still loaded in the ECU.

As for "cracking" the ECU, have no fear, the same ecu is used in the 999 Ducati and has already been cracked, some companies have already cracked the Aprilia ecu and will soon be releasing to the public the needed software to crack at will. What I need for the level of tune I desire is a very good system that will allow us to map the bikes 2 cylinders independently....they do have different needs and to get the most possible performance out of the new V990 motor this will be required.

Soon with richer fueling we can switch to proper fuel for a track bike and then get the 6-7% built in advantage of oxygenated fuels like the VP Ultimate 4 blend...wicked stuff!

DRT, I am on a learning mission about 2 stroke break in right now, only a few moments ago a new 2-stroke "break in" lube from Dumonde Tech showed up and it has fairly complete instructions which I will share in an upcoming "2-Stroke Tech" article about proper build up and break in of a top end kit. Opinions vary wildly on 2-stroke break in and I am looking for something that I have not found yet. Traditionally I just heat cycle them with little to no load for 3 or 4 times and then ride them like their going to ridden....hopefully Dumonde Tech will have a slightly more scientific process.

clarkie49
12-22-2003, 12:03 PM
micah - i know you guys are a little anti the powercommander thing because of your connection with factory pro, but the new USB powercommander has the ability to map each cylinder individually. no you cant adjust the ignition on the RSV-R but you can get each cylinder just right.

i doubt that aprilia would use the same CAN protocol as ducati, once you have this it might be all smooth sailing.

i have this image of a program like on the movie War Games where it gets each number in the code one at a time and everyone is holding their breath waiting :D

milleman
12-22-2003, 12:08 PM
Is the fuel pressure regulator the same as te old mille?

If so I have one!

I'm interested to see what the ram air does!

clarkie49
12-22-2003, 12:18 PM
yep , the same pressure reg, aint life grand......sometimes :D

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-22-2003, 12:24 PM
Clarkie...I am not the one one here who is anti PC. It is not the best option if you have access to the OEM level development software but I have been pretty impressed with what can be done with some of the late model Jap bikes we have used it on.

milleman
12-22-2003, 12:43 PM
Cool were do you think I should start 46-47psi

Micah? clarkie?

Louge
12-22-2003, 12:47 PM
Guys:

Try biasing the TPS to the + side. Offsetting mine a mere .020" from a 0 reference drawn with a pencil line across the head / TPS dialled my 00-R in.

This will put you deeper into the fuelling map for a given throttle plate deflection. If the setup is similar on the newer bike this should give you a quick open loop reality check up top without recalibrating the fuel pressure regulator.

Enjoying reading your collective findings on the new bike.

clarkie49
12-22-2003, 01:10 PM
stock should be around 47-49 psi, if you are running the closed loop map (stock map) i would go up to around 52psi.

too much you say? well in the closed loop config the ecu will always adjust back to 14.7:1 and you will only have the richer mixture when going to the open loop (full throttle) config.

if you have converted to the race map (open loop full time) you could start around 50 psi and try it. of corse the dyno will give the best results as to what fuel pressure the race pipes, flapper mod and evo airbox will give you.

maybe Micah will be nice enough to tell us what fuel pressure his RSV-R likes with the above mods :D

i have run 55-56 psi without any problems, of corse it had a fair few mods that needed the extra fuel :D

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-22-2003, 01:18 PM
Of course I will share the info when I get it....I want us all to have ass kicking RSVR's...not just mine.

ken zeller
12-22-2003, 02:21 PM
micah,

just a quick correction - the ducatis use a magneti marelli ecu (5.9) where the aprilias us a semens-vdo.

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-22-2003, 02:40 PM
Yes Ken you are quite correct...but it has already been cracked and it looks like the Aprilias will be soon as well.

DRT-Tuning
12-22-2003, 04:56 PM
OK thx, now my only unsolved mistery is that: lean(er) mixture = more (over)revs (on full throttle in higest gear)

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-22-2003, 06:27 PM
In a two stroke the leaner mixture will allow higher revs but that is due to the increase in pipe temp from the leaner burn...just as a rich mixture cools the pipe and lets it resonate at a lower frequency. Two stroke tuning is all about getting the pipe to work with the cylinder. Water injection allows a two stroke to run a cooler pipe temp at lower rpm but without jetting too rich for good power at a higher rpm...and the same reason that retarded timing allows for higher revs, by lighting the fire a few degrees of crank rotation later you increase the temp (because the fuel is still buring out into the pipe) and raise the resonant frequency of the pipe.

milleman
12-22-2003, 06:40 PM
Clarkie I have the map 2 in my bike aslo kens air box kit [race] Of course My fab can mod!

52? I'll try that first! thanks


BTW we will be down your way in jan we will have to stop by!

clarkie49
12-22-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by milleman
Clarkie I have the map 2 in my bike aslo kens air box kit [race] Of course My fab can mod!

52? I'll try that first! thanks

this is just a guess, i have no data to back 52psi up at all.


just a little disclaimer:D

i have run 55-56psi to work with different mods

DRT-Tuning
12-22-2003, 08:48 PM
Thanks for explaining Micah.

Also I alwas thought that the ignition was advanced to allow for a better (more power) at top rpm's. So it actually is retarding.
Again I might mix things up since an inner rotor with variable timing advances at low rpm and then retards the ignition as the rpm's increase. But what I know is, is that when it's reatrding after the low rpm advancing, on top RPM it's still advanced more as the stock set timing would be.
Again, I might have it mixed up 180, since to create the most top end power or at least most overev, according to your story the ignition should be in a retarding position.

Hope you can understand by Abacadabra.

(I've always been into 2stroke (scootering), but only a short period now have I tried, or am trying to get the hang of the technics and how to tune etc.)

ckruzel
12-23-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by clarkie49

i doubt that aprilia would use the same CAN protocol as ducati, once you have this it might be all smooth sailing.



hmmm, not sure, but i'm sure someone out there can look at the canbus system and maybe make changes

http://www.mathworks.com/products/connections/images/canbus_graphic.jpg

Highlights:

Direct CAN bus read and write access from Simulink
Easy-to-use blocks for Simulink
Industry-standard CAN bus hardware
Real-time simulation directly within Simulink
Standard PC or laptop compatible

Description:

The CANbus Toolset lets you access, influence, and monitor the data flow on the CAN bus directly from Simulink and in real time. Based on easy-to-use CAN bus read and write blocks, the CANbus Toolset blocks integrate into Simulink in the same way as standard Simulink library blocks. The CANbus Toolset may be used for various development tasks such as the monitoring of physical signals available on the CAN bus, algorithm development, system identification, control design and test, all live while sitting in the car. It may also be used within the development chain as an on-the-road verified specification of new microcontroller functionality and for function prototyping.
You can parametrize the CAN bus identifiers with an easy-to-use GUI which has been built using MATLAB's GUI builder GUIDE.

Micah / AF1 Racing
12-23-2003, 10:46 AM
A 2-stroke ignition curve is almost exactly opposite of a 4-stroke curve. In a two stroke you start out very advanced, like 30-40 degrees at say 1000rpm and then the ignition retards steadily to high rpm where it may literally be as little as 0-10 degrees BTDC. This is done to manipulate the temp inside the pipe and make it resonate over a wider range of rpm than would be possible with fixed ignition timing. The torque peak on any motor, 2-stroke or 4-stroke is the rpm where you get the highest BMEP and volumetric efficiency (most compression and air in cylinder). The goal with two stroke ignition tuning is to get the most possible power at the torque peak and then advance the timing prior to the peak and retard it afterwards to give the greatest possible spread of power.

This is where programmable ignition units began to pay dividends. If you have dyno access then you can custom program top notch units like the PVL's from Germany to get a broad fat powerband that will also allow for a lot of high rpm over rev potential.

If you were to tune a two stroke that had no expansion chamber but a header only you would find that the idel ignition timing would look much more like a 4-stroke...but still not exactly the same.

2-stroke heads are capable of very fast combustion due to the extreme turbulence created by the squish band and the extremely smooth contours of the head which promote high charge velocity. This very turbulent environment encourages a fast burn of the fuel/air mix which is how they can get away with such impossibly small amounts of ignition advance and still make power.

In a 4-stroke the goal of ignition timing is almost always to acheive a peak combustion pressure 12-14 degrees ATDC to give the maximum push down on the connecting rod. In a two stroke you may well see best power produced not when the peak pressure occurs at the same 12-14 degrees ATDC but when it occurs say 20 or more degrees ATDC due to the effect of the tuned expansion chamber which is acting as a supercharger. You can think of ignition tuning as pipe tuning, by manipulating the temp of the exhaust gas that goes into the pipe you may be able to raise the boost level the pipe is capable of producing at a given rpm....the net effect of which is to increase the amount of air trapped in the cylinder as the exhaust port closes and giving a higher bhp at that rpm.

Sorry for the long winded answer.

DRT-Tuning
12-23-2003, 03:06 PM
^

Wow, thanks for explaining.

Dvus
12-24-2003, 12:49 AM
I just recieved my hi flo airfilter from Ken at Evoluzione. Damn that was quick I ordered it friday and it arrived today! Ken said he'll try to get it to me before Xmas. He definetly had it in to me today! I'll have this installed very soon and have a homemade air box soon;) I'll have to think about the fuel pressure kit. I'll just wait for milleman to get his setup done first.:rolleyes:

Thunder Factory
12-24-2003, 09:41 AM
Ordered the Exo air kit which includes the filter.

Nice to see a pic of the filter, looks like excellent quality.

Roll on the Spring I say :banana:

milleman
12-24-2003, 12:49 PM
My airbox kit will be done on the 4th

Dvus
12-24-2003, 01:45 PM
Can't wait to get that on!

Dvus
12-25-2003, 07:45 PM
I just went out for a ride with the new airfilter installed. I just can't believe how much I'm in love with this bike!!! I have sooo much fun on it. I can't stop the big ass smile on my face. I feel the bike just pulls from 3kRPM and doesn't quit at all. It's nice and strong from 5.5K to 7k right where I like to be exiting corners. I feel like the more mods made the more linear the torque curve is. This bike is great.

I went out for a quick ride since the sun was out my woman and the kids went to her parents home. I took the mille out. I wanted to hit some twisties, but didn't want to go all far to get to them so I went to a nearby spot, Green Valley. I Enjoyed most of my afternoon until I headed home.


On my way home I saw a Washington State Patrol (WaSP). I slowed down and followed him. He pulled over to help a stranded motorist. I thought I was in the clear and WOT for about a mile and a half to the next exit. I take it and turned right. I stopped at the light and looked in my hideously unuseful mirror and saw a marked WaSP behind me. Damn!!!!

Where did he come from??? The light turns green I go and I see he turned on his lights too.

Damn it!!!

I pull into a private parking lot.

He asks the usual question, "do you know how fast you were going?"

I reply, "I honestly do not know. I was not looking."

He replayed what happened prior to me taking the exit off Hwy 16.

I nod convincingly thinking to myself that sounds about right. Where the hell were you!!! I didn't see you behind me.

He says, "you should be careful. You don't want to die on Christmas? I don't want to give a ticket on Christmas."

"I don't want one," I say to him.

He asks for license and registration.

Damn! Damn! Damn!

This has to ruin my Xmas. He's going to see I was just arrested for Reckless driving and see that I'm on probation and that I'm required to carry insurance(Washington state doesn't require motorcyclist to carry insurance on bikes). I give him the registration and pull out my wallet to grab my license. He sees the picture of my 2 boys.

He says, "oh you're a family man. You really out to be here for your kids."

"That's what I'm trying to do. I'm on my way home." I reply

I give him my license and he walks to his car and says, "I really don't want to write a ticket on Christmas."

I take all my gear off and try to hide my radar detector, cause our WaSPs don't like Radars even though it's legal.

He's in his squad car for awhile. A lot less than I'm used to. Normally when I get pulled over. The state patrol is in his car for a good 15min. This stater, trooper A.J. Fox, was in his car for about 2 min. I hear the door open and close. I don't look up until he's right near me. I look and he's holding my license and registration.


Thank you!

Thank you!

He looks at my bike and tells me, "I know you're not going to listen to me when I say slow down. You really should get insurance. Do you have insurance on the bike?"

I say to him, "not right now." All the while thinking. I have a reckless on my driving record from May. I have to wait 3 years to get a descent insurance rate.

The troopers says, "I know it's not require yet, but you should get it soon to take care of yourself and your bike."

He tells me a story about the 6 people this year that he was called to regarding motorcycle accidents. 5 of which was speed related and one where a car side swiped the motorcyclist. One of the speeders had his leg cut off hitting a wooden post from a sign.


He gives my stuff back and before he goes I extend my hand to shake his. I thanked him for not writing me a ticket. I certainly appreciate the talk and definitely the warning. I hurried home!

Thanks Trooper Fox.

Thunder Factory
12-26-2003, 01:52 AM
Dvus

I think you should you put this down as the ultimate Christmas present! :D

:peace:

m00c0w
12-26-2003, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by Dvus
I hurried home!

Did you red line it on the way back :D

Dvus
12-26-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by m00c0w
Did you red line it on the way back :D Yeah on the city streets and in neighborhoods:rolleyes: I was Rodney Kinging it home:rolleyes:

milleman
12-26-2003, 03:36 PM
Wow Dom .....Merry Xmas, I'm glad you Did not get cited Bro...........Godamn flashy aprilia of yours :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

BTW the cops are always out on Xmas! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

Glad to hear you got a break!:bitchslap :bitchslap :angel: :angel:

RSVracer
12-26-2003, 07:00 PM
milleman, from what I see your bike looks red. Does that mean that you have the RSVR and not the factory? If so this suprises me because of your knowledge and obvious passion for bikes. It just seems like a guy like you would've upped for the Factory package. Any specific reason why you didnt?

Dvus
12-26-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by RSVracer
milleman, from what I see your bike looks red. Does that mean that you have the RSVR and not the factory? If so this suprises me because of your knowledge and obvious passion for bikes. It just seems like a guy like you would've upped for the Factory package. Any specific reason why you didnt? :D :confused: :happy:

TheClaw
12-26-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by RSVracer
milleman, from what I see your bike looks red. Does that mean that you have the RSVR and not the factory? If so this suprises me because of your knowledge and obvious passion for bikes. It just seems like a guy like you would've upped for the Factory package. Any specific reason why you didnt?

Not to step in but for those of us with R's rather than Factories.

1) We are on a budget. After tuition, booties, groceries, then motorcycles.

2) Do you really think the extra N'th percentage of performance will help you or are you just a posier?

3) Yeah the cool bits are great but how many track days days can I buy for a set of Ohlins?

4)Except for posiers, nobody will complain. The bike is BAD ASS already!


Now thats just me. :bond: :bond: :bond: :bond:

milleman
12-26-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by RSVracer
milleman, from what I see your bike looks red. Does that mean that you have the RSVR and not the factory? If so this suprises me because of your knowledge and obvious passion for bikes. It just seems like a guy like you would've upped for the Factory package. Any specific reason why you didnt?

Mine is a Factory......I swaped body work with Dvus [Dom]

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

milleman
12-26-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by TheClaw
Not to step in but for those of us with R's rather than Factories.

1) We are on a budget. After tuition, booties, groceries, then motorcycles.

2) Do you really think the extra N'th percentage of performance will help you or are you just a posier?

3) Yeah the cool bits are great but how many track days days can I buy for a set of Ohlins?

4)Except for posiers, nobody will complain. The bike is BAD ASS already!


Now thats just me. :bond: :bond: :bond: :bond:


I agree most riders will not need a factory.......I'm one of those that can get the extra outta a Factory......havin raced for years and all......My last bike was a std mille and it served me well.

even an R is still light years ahead of any thing that comes from japan.

the Only reason I bought a factory this time is, that I bought all the R [factory] stuff anyway....so I figured this time I would get the super trick one.....instead of just trick!:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

I have riden both, the real diff is the suspension:fangs:

TheClaw
12-26-2003, 11:21 PM
Suspension is the most under-appreciated mod available.

But again, that is just me.:bond: :bond: :bond:

sub-moa
12-26-2003, 11:56 PM
An R owner could just get the forks sent to Traxxion, or get a race tech kit and have AF1 do a rebuild. THen get an Ohlins rear setup precisely for your weight. (I hear PLR suspension does bloody good work. My friend had his setup spot on from them for his Thunderace.) Around 1200$ for a personally setup Ohlins rear and rebuilt forks.

THen the only thing you'd be lacking was the radial brakes. For the price of a full system an R would be just (well almost) as good as the factory suspension wise. ...minus the bling carbon bits and OZ wheels. :)

Dvus
12-27-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by sub-moa
An R owner could just get the forks sent to Traxxion, or get a race tech kit and have AF1 do a rebuild. THen get an Ohlins rear setup precisely for your weight. (I hear PLR suspension does bloody good work. My friend had his setup spot on from them for his Thunderace.) Around 1200$ for a personally setup Ohlins rear and rebuilt forks.

THen the only thing you'd be lacking was the radial brakes. For the price of a full system an R would be just (well almost) as good as the factory suspension wise. ...minus the bling carbon bits and OZ wheels. :) I concurr with most of the above case. I'd use other vendors to rebuild my suspension. We have local suspension tuners in Oregon. I'd use the GPsuspension guys. They do excellent stuff.

Thunder Factory
12-27-2003, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by sub-moa
An R owner could just get the forks sent to Traxxion, or get a race tech kit and have AF1 do a rebuild. THen get an Ohlins rear setup precisely for your weight. (I hear PLR suspension does bloody good work. My friend had his setup spot on from them for his Thunderace.) Around 1200$ for a personally setup Ohlins rear and rebuilt forks.:)

Sub

Who was your friend that had PLR set up their Ace?

I'm asking as I know PLR from my Ace days and actually encouraged them to develope a fork kit for the Ace using their race internals.

PLR are the Ohlins distributors in this part of the world and their race fork internals are used by a lot of local racers including TAS Suzuki who cleaned up at the last 2 TT's with PLR doing the suspension mods and maintenence.

They actually have a kit available for the Showa forks used on the RSV.

:peace:

TheClaw
12-27-2003, 08:20 AM
Any opinions regarding the Ohlins vs the Penske for the rear? THe Penske is actually more expensive. Evoluzione has them.

jeff

clarkie49
12-27-2003, 09:09 AM
when you look at teh features the Penske is the better shock.

the Ohlins is a street shock that has single speed (high) compression and rebound adjustments.

the Penske has high and low speed compression and high speed rebound.

the penske is the better shock by a long way.

TheClaw
12-27-2003, 10:57 AM
What's the weakest link in the R suspension, the fork or rear shock?

mixR
12-27-2003, 11:22 AM
"What's the weakest link in the R suspension, the fork or rear shock?"

If you asked that a week ago I would have said most definitely the rear shock. Now I'm not so sure...
Since I got my R in early September the handling has felt like there was insufficient rebound damping in the shock causing the rear of the bike to feel 'loose' and unstable. After constantly adjusting the shock to resolve the problem I found the best improvement was increasing the rear tyre (Michelin Pilot Sport 'E') pressure from the recommended 36psi to 42psi.
Although this helped a lot, it didn't sort the problem out entirely. As the tyre wore down I found that it was starting to delaminate badly all around the circumference, I put this down to some serious wheelspinning out of turns.:D
A week ago, I changed the rear tyre (another Michelin Pilot Sport but NOT 'E').
Since then I've done two 90 mile runs, 1 on Xmas Eve and the other on Xmas Day and although the mainly damp roads prevented any serious riding, the bike feels so much better.
Now, the back feels really good and the front feels slightly overdamped (but good) so I would say, now, that the forks need some lighter oil.
So, it seems that I've been pissing into the wind trying to set up the suspension when the problem has been a faulty tyre all along!:confused:
Decent weather is required before a proper test can confirm that opinion though.

BTW. I've pulled the forks 2 lines and increased rear preload 2 threads for much improved steering.

First sign of the delamination, it got a lot worse after this!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mick.garbutt/tyre.jpg

Dvus
12-27-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by TheClaw
What's the weakest link in the R suspension, the fork or rear shock? the forks by far it doesn't have a wide range of adjustments. Makes it quite difficult to dial in. The rear is easy to adjust. I'd get the front forks revlaved.

Penkse I love it that's what I have on my R6 8987 very good shock much easier to have a shop work on the penske than the ohlins

42psi is too much for me 35 is highest i'd ever go. Isetup suspension to meet the demands of a better contact patch

mixR
12-27-2003, 12:37 PM
"42psi is too much for me 35 is highest i'd ever go"

The 42psi isn't so much a recommendation, just something I needed to do to get the handling somewhere decent with the original tyre.
I'm ready to try the STD 36psi again but I suspect the tyre (like Michelins and Bridgestones I've tried in the past) will turn to gum on our abrasive country roads in the summer without a little more pressure.
The tyres should wear out as a pair this time and then I'll be going back to Pirellis.

Dvus
12-27-2003, 12:56 PM
yup must sacrifice tire life for the performance grip. I'm partial to Metzelers sport tec M1, but then again Pirelli is the parent company to Metzeler.

DRT-Tuning
12-27-2003, 01:29 PM
Someone please xplain me the extra costs for a radial brake system (I mean the way the caliper is hung, not a radial master cilinder)

To me ( a rookie) it just seems that it's just that, the way the caliper is mounted on the front forks, not some high-tech fancy stuff that would actually make it pricier. So maybe someone could explain that to me?

TheClaw
12-27-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by DRT-Tuning
Someone please xplain me the extra costs for a radial brake system (I mean the way the caliper is hung, not a radial master cilinder)

To me ( a rookie) it just seems that it's just that, the way the caliper is mounted on the front forks, not some high-tech fancy stuff that would actually make it pricier. So maybe someone could explain that to me?

There's a good article in the December 2003 Superbike that goes thru radial vs conventional brakes. It includes some hard testing and results.

The Dec 03 Superbike is a good one to snag as it also has the comparo between the 03 and 04 RSV-R and Factory. And you gotta love their centerfolds.

If I can find the brake article on the web I'll post it.

jeff

clarkie49
12-27-2003, 06:45 PM
here is a link to the tech section on the aprilia.com site

http://www.aprilia.com/portale/eng/caferac_articolo.phtml?id=13

there are however different opinions however when comparing the best non-radial caliper (base model) to the high end (Factory)

this is from the braketech site and relates to the Brembo bridged cliper (std model)

http://www.braketech.com/tech.html

TheClaw
12-27-2003, 08:24 PM
I looked online for the article in Superbike mag. Not there. Sorry guys. Net-Net there are some hard number which make the radial brakes better. but the dif is pretty subtle. but sometimes subtle is all it takes.

I would take anything on the aprilia.com site with a grain of salt, it is marketing you know.

i do like pics of some of the real heavy duty kit thats on GP bike now.

jeff

milleman
12-27-2003, 10:00 PM
on my std mille I sent the front and rear suspension to circut 1 for 900 it follows the ground perfect....the showa stuff is a lot more durable than the ohliins...revalved and set up with you on the bike and it is just as good if not better :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

TheClaw
12-27-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by milleman
on my std mille I sent the front and rear suspension to circut 1 for 900

????

milleman
12-27-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by TheClaw
????

I have a 00 mille also

scott2ride
12-28-2003, 05:22 AM
Did you get around to doing the testing on the Flappa valve and what was the results?

Your public awaits!

DRT-Tuning
12-28-2003, 10:54 AM
Ok maybe I did not explain it good enough. I'm well aware of the braking benefits of a Radial mounted caliper, but and the Aprilia site says it all

" The term “radial” describes the way in which the calliper is fixed to the foot of the fork leg. Whereas conventional disk brake callipers are fixed by bolts perpendicular to the surface of the disk, radial callipers are fixed by bolts arranged around the radius of the disk, from the circumference towards the centre. This fixing system is the only major technical innovation. "


This fixing system is the only major technical innovation

So WHY does a radial system costs a premium price, since the ONLY difference is the way the caliper is bolted on.

Now if years of R&D went into this (okay maybe iyt did) but it doesn't seem to be a major technical breakthrough in the sense that it's something exotic. Actually it's pretty cool that by just mounting them differentely you get these benefits (more bite, less flex)

See it as the diffrence in a simple non-adjustable rear shock vs. a fully adjustable one.
I do not have to tell anyone why the fully adjustable one is more expansive, since it has all these extra features, like remote reservoir, hydraulic pre-load adjuster etc.
The extra costs are "viewable" but now when you look at the radial mounted vs. conventional mounted calipers, you wonder why you have to pay extra for them.

DRT-Tuning
12-28-2003, 11:23 AM
OK I might actually have figured it out after all and the extra costs don't have to do with the way it's mounted at all, but becuase the calipers used in a radial mounted version, are way more exotic (CNC machining, one piece billet alu etc.)

But of course you knew that all already.

clarkie49
12-28-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by DRT-Tuning
Actually it's pretty cool that by just mounting them differentely you get these benefits (more bite, less flex)

hmmmm......you kind of answered your own question

scott2ride
12-28-2003, 05:31 PM
I think the difference in price could well be related to the fact that they havent made many radial calipers yet and don't have such huge economies of scale with them.

Also the manufacturers probably have truckloads of "Normal" brakes in stock and on back order, so they need to get rid of them before supplying all there bikes with the new radial calipers.

Also it is a marketing exercise...they will only put the radial brakes on the 'up spec' bikes (ie; factory Vs R) to create an even more perceived advantage with the Factory modle, and therefore encourage us to buy the more expensive bike.

Naturally they also have the R&D budget to recoupe, in just the same way that the latest cellphone or digital camera costs 50% more in the first 4-6mths of its introduction.

Now.... Where is that Flappa valve follow up????:bitchslap

Thunder Factory
01-01-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Micah / AF1 Racing
The flapper test will be done tonite...I am pretty sure that it is mainly a noise dampner but some folks say otherwise...we shall see.

Micah

Did you do it? If so what was the result?

:peace:

milleman
01-16-2004, 09:35 PM
Bumpitty

ChicagoFactory
01-16-2004, 09:58 PM
The flapper test will be done tonite...I am pretty sure that it is mainly a noise dampner but some folks say otherwise...we shall see.

Micah, It's been almost a month. Any info on this flapper valve yet.
Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks,

Mike

Giest
12-31-2008, 11:38 PM
Flappa Bump