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View Full Version : Does the 2006 RSV1000R have a slipper clutch?



LondonRed
01-08-2007, 11:01 AM
I've been told different things by different people......

spoonz
01-08-2007, 11:18 AM
Yes I believe it does. a Vacuum one like the earlier models

LondonRed
01-08-2007, 11:43 AM
Reason I ask is I just got a brand new 06 model a couple of weeks ago and didn't know how careful to be when changing down gears.... what with it being a 1000cc twin and all.

derrickhackman
01-08-2007, 11:56 AM
yeah slipper ... you should notice this pretty quick. no need for a blip on the down-shift.

LondonRed
01-08-2007, 12:18 PM
Thanks guys.

Tee-Dub
01-08-2007, 12:25 PM
a sort of "quasi" slipper clutch. You wont mistake it for an STM, but it will limit slip of the rear wheel when aggressively downshifting. Key word being "limit".

LondonRed
01-08-2007, 12:35 PM
I have heard previously that the clutch reduces 'Bounce' on the rear wheel.

Whatever that means....

racerr900
01-08-2007, 03:39 PM
Does this mean my 04 has a slipper clutch also? I noticed at track days I don't need to "blip" on the downshifts as the other bikes do.

ChrisSK
01-08-2007, 03:55 PM
Question.. What exactly is a slipper clutch, and how is it different from a standard clutch?

Should I ask Jeeves?

LondonRed
01-08-2007, 05:23 PM
A slipper clutch, does exactly what it says on the tin i.e. it slips the clutch without you doing it manually and thus stops your back wheel from locking up when you change down gears too quickly.

Leoallafila
01-09-2007, 03:57 AM
What are y'all talking about???? No need to blip the throttle in downshift?????? What in the world has that to do with a slipper clutch???


No bike has an ABSOLUTE NEED for a blip of the throttle to downshift as long ad the clutch is working fine, but it is something you should always do (even on a Priller) since a frontal connection gearbox like the ones used in bikes have no sincronisation devices to spin up the primary shaft of the gearbox to match the speed of the secondary shaft: the blip you give is to manually match the speed of the two shafts so that when the gears come close they spin at approx the same rate letting them engage smoothly without any CLANG that in the long run is not good for the gears or gearbox housing.

The slipper clutch is there to prevent chattering of the rear wheel during heavy breaking by making the elastic transitions of the braking force to the ground slower and easier for the "bike/transmission/tyre" system to digest (since it slips it puts a barrier between the engine breaking power&inertia from the rear wheel killing the oscillatory force that might build up) without having the rear wheel to start chattering. That is it. In the specific case of the Priller solution it also makes for an easier to pull clutch when idling.


Sorry for my poor technical English, but I hope I got myself understood.

live2ride
01-09-2007, 04:08 AM
Hi been reading the forum since picked up me 06 red rsv in august, found a lot of useful info so cheers guys. Thought I will post my experience of stock & stm slipper clutch.
The slip in stock clutch is basically operated by a vacuum sucking on a rubber diaphragm when you shut off the throttle. Thereby slips the clutch. Like tee dub says the amount of slip is limited. If you want to experiment, change down from 45mph in 3rd to 1st and you will find the bike jerks forward and backward momentarily (this is BAD when I try to line up for corner).
With the stm slipper clutch, you can change down the gears as aggressively as you want to. All you will get is the bike rev is head off. If you can block out the engine noise and tap up the rev counter, you wouldn't FEEL any jerks of upsets. The whole bike flys into corner soo soo smooth and with soo soo much feed back and confidence. Plus with the engine revving its tits off, as soon as you have the bike straight and up a gear, she will take off like a bat out of hell.
So in me experience the stock slipper clutch will slip soo much as to stop the rear wheel locking up. But still jerks the bike when you down change too aggressively. I personally wouldn't bang down the gears and trust the rubber diaphragm to prevent the rear wheel lockup.
Hope you guys find this helpful and don't mind the long post.

Leoallafila
01-09-2007, 12:40 PM
Hi been reading the forum since picked up me 06 red rsv in august, found a lot of useful info so cheers guys. Thought I will post my experience of stock & stm slipper clutch.
The slip in stock clutch is basically operated by a vacuum sucking on a rubber diaphragm when you shut off the throttle. Thereby slips the clutch. Like tee dub says the amount of slip is limited. If you want to experiment, change down from 45mph in 3rd to 1st and you will find the bike jerks forward and backward momentarily (this is BAD when I try to line up for corner).
With the stm slipper clutch, you can change down the gears as aggressively as you want to. All you will get is the bike rev is head off. If you can block out the engine noise and tap up the rev counter, you wouldn't FEEL any jerks of upsets. The whole bike flys into corner soo soo smooth and with soo soo much feed back and confidence. Plus with the engine revving its tits off, as soon as you have the bike straight and up a gear, she will take off like a bat out of hell.
So in me experience the stock slipper clutch will slip soo much as to stop the rear wheel locking up. But still jerks the bike when you down change too aggressively. I personally wouldn't bang down the gears and trust the rubber diaphragm to prevent the rear wheel lockup.
Hope you guys find this helpful and don't mind the long post.


first of all WELCOME!!! :-)

Abolutely correct, the OEM slipper clutch is quite "mild", a "real" slipper clutch is of course better on track, but the clutch wear is also drastically increased (since il slips more basically) :-)

The Priller solution is very simple, quite effective and durable (and free, hehehehe)

ChrisSK
01-09-2007, 01:00 PM
Do the 03's have a Slipper clutch?

I noticed on the 04, when I release the clutch, it has sort of a catch/slip/catch feeling to it, even on the upshift.

kzmille
01-09-2007, 01:10 PM
Do the 03's have a Slipper clutch?

I noticed on the 04, when I release the clutch, it has sort of a catch/slip/catch feeling to it, even on the upshift.
Every bike with the V60 engine has the same slipper clutch.

bull*ramus
01-09-2007, 01:11 PM
Do the 03's have a Slipper clutch?

I noticed on the 04, when I release the clutch, it has sort of a catch/slip/catch feeling to it, even on the upshift.

Yeah, every Mille has one...

live2ride
01-09-2007, 01:56 PM
Even my falco had one. which of course is based on mille engine.

RSVR Buncey
01-09-2007, 06:05 PM
From what i undestand the slipper on the milles only works on 100% closed throttle so blipping on the way down will stop it working. Anybody able to confirm this?

Thanks

kzmille
01-09-2007, 06:16 PM
At the end of the blip the throttle is closed and the slipper doesn't even know you blipped the throttle. It has no real effect on the function of the slipper.

hank
01-09-2007, 07:55 PM
For track riding, dialing up the idle to around 2,000 rpm makes corner entry easier as it reduces the abruptness of the engine braking and helps with increasing smoothness form the vacuum-assisted clutch...

Leoallafila
01-10-2007, 01:28 AM
Yeah, don't use a blip of the throttle, it may cause your bank account to disappear. And also, if you want a stiffer fork, no need to take it down and change oil and springs, just throw a couple of Viagra pills in the OEM oil and you're set....:bump: :bump: :bump: :happy: :happy:

William the Third
01-10-2007, 01:33 AM
What are y'all talking about???? No need to blip the throttle in downshift?????? What in the world has that to do with a slipper clutch???


No bike has an ABSOLUTE NEED for a blip of the throttle to downshift as long ad the clutch is working fine, but it is something you should always do (even on a Priller) since a frontal connection gearbox like the ones used in bikes have no sincronisation devices to spin up the primary shaft of the gearbox to match the speed of the secondary shaft: the blip you give is to manually match the speed of the two shafts so that when the gears come close they spin at approx the same rate letting them engage smoothly without any CLANG that in the long run is not good for the gears or gearbox housing.

The slipper clutch is there to prevent chattering of the rear wheel during heavy breaking by making the elastic transitions of the braking force to the ground slower and easier for the "bike/transmission/tyre" system to digest (since it slips it puts a barrier between the engine breaking power&inertia from the rear wheel killing the oscillatory force that might build up) without having the rear wheel to start chattering. That is it. In the specific case of the Priller solution it also makes for an easier to pull clutch when idling.


Sorry for my poor technical English, but I hope I got myself understood.
What you say is true for car gearboxes (or any gearbox that has the ablity to select neutral between gear shifts), but not sequential gearboxes like in the RSV (and motorcycles in general). Because the clutch is disengaged during the blip nothing is transmitted to the gearbox. The reason this works with with gearboxes that allow you to select neutral between gears is because you can engaged the clutch (like when double clutching/de-clutching) while in neutral thus transmitting the blip in speed to the primary shaft.

Another problem is some sequential gearboxes while having a primary and secondary shaft, don't always have all gears on the primary shaft fixed while the gears on the secondary shaft are free spinning on bearings. Some sequential gearboxes have fixed, sliding, and free spinning gears on both shafts. This allows for more compact gearboxes as you don't need engagement rings between the gears. The gears are straight cut and some are allowed to slide. These sliding gears have dog teeth on them and act as the engagement rings. This would also be a problem if trying to use a blip to speed up gearbox speed for the lower gear being shifted to.

The reason for a blip on a motorcycle is to speed up the engine for the lower gear to prevent wheel hop. The wheel hop happens because the stress of the wheel attempting to speed up the engine is greater than the traction of the tire, thus causing the wheel to momentarily lock up (hop).

Now you can see why a slipper clutch can eliminate the need for the blip (which like you said, isn't even needed on a non slipper bike as long as the clutch works and you can act as your own slipper clutch). Since the slipper clutch slips the clutch when the engine is decelerating, it allows you to downshift more carelessly depending on how the slipper clutch is setup. The slipping action can be adjusted in most "real" slipper clutch to only give some slip (more engine braking, more chance of wheel hop), or lots of slip (less or no engine braking (acts sort of like a centrifugal clutch), less or no chance of wheel hop).

The speeding up of the engine is also another benefit to the blip in a car. It lessens clutch wear/fade and can also precent wheel hop (which isn't usually as much of a concern in a car due to greater traction from the larger contact patch and weight).

jetfever
01-10-2007, 10:05 AM
I think blip throttle downshift is important on my Tuono as well as when cage driving a manual gearbox and cornering aggressively. I can feel the bikes gear dogs change smoothly=(LESS WEAR)! with much less chance of a chassis upset. Same with a car, NO chassis upset on corner approach when done smoothly. I agree totally with KZ, after the blip, the stock clutch helps when throttle is closed. My G/F has a SuperHawk, (1000cc twin) the same (blip) downshift on her bike causes the rear to lock and I need more blip to prevent hop/skid, but not for a smooth gear change! When racing, and lap times are king, go ahead and "Bitch Slap" your bike around the track.

Leoallafila
01-10-2007, 10:07 AM
What you say is true for car gearboxes (or any gearbox that has the ablity to select neutral between gear shifts), but not sequential gearboxes like in the RSV (and motorcycles in general). Because the clutch is disengaged during the blip nothing is transmitted to the gearbox.


Not true, the clutch is not perfect: it never really disengages totally, it will still have enough drag to make the primary shaft move (in real life).

For the rest I agree, and in the end the message is: blipping the throttle when downshifting is something you must do and having a slipper clutch doesn't "spare" you.

William the Third
01-10-2007, 09:46 PM
Not true, the clutch is not perfect: it never really disengages totally, it will still have enough drag to make the primary shaft move (in real life).

For the rest I agree, and in the end the message is: blipping the throttle when downshifting is something you must do and having a slipper clutch doesn't "spare" you.
You are right, there is usually still some friction between the plates when the clutch is disengaged. However this is not enough to turn the primary shaft much, even in neutral, unless the clutch is improperly setup (or a stretched cable / air in the line (something I am sure you 04 guys are used to)). With a properly setup clutch the amount of friction between between the plates while the clutch is disengaged is so little that a blip of the throttle will exceed the friction and break free, spinning the primary shaft little to none.

There is also another problem I addressed in the second part of my post. Not all gears on the primary shaft are fixed nor all of the gears on the secondary shaft free spinning on bearings in most motorcycle sequential gearboxes. There are fixed, sliding, and free spinning gears on both shafts.

Because of a sequential gearboxes inablity to select neutral between gears other than first and second (by design, ignoring false neutrals), and that not all gears on the primar shaft are fixed, the blip is usless in trying to synchronize the gearbox for shifts.

Why the blip doesn't work in synchronizing the gearbox is because of these reasons...
1: The clutch is disengaged. What little friction that is there isn't enough
2: Can't select neutral between gears which would allow you to engage the clutch
3: Not all gears on the primary are fixed nor or all gears on the secondary free spinning.

By design of a sequential gearbox, the time between gear being de-selected and the next gear being selected is short, however the is a short time between shifts (measured in nanoseconds) where no gear is selected (a neutral if you will, this is where the engagement ring/gear gets stuck in a false neutral). This is where a blip could be used to synchronize the gearbox if it wasn't for the fact that in most motorcycle gearboxes the primary gears arn't all fixed, and the friction between the plates of a disengaged clutch is easly broken.

Lets say you are shifting from fourth to third, and lets say for the hell of it you are able to select neutral between fourth and third and thus engage the clutch and blip the throttle. You still may not be able to synchronize the gearbox for the shift to third because the gear on the primary shaft that is part of the third gear set may be free spinning. This means your spinning of the primary shaft did little to nothing to speed up the gear on the primary shaft. However in the real world there is no neutral between gears (other than first and second for most bikes), and the time between gear selections in which no gear is selected is very very small and not enough time to engage the clutch.

Lets now say there is enough friction between the plates of a disengaged clutch to spin the primary shaft (while in neutral). Being the time between gear selection in which no gear is selected is so small that most of the time during the blip one gear or another is going to be selected. If the blip was able to turn the primary shaft while the clutch was disengaged then this would translate to acceleration at the wheel. That however brings in another issue, a disengaged clutch (even one that drags quite a bit) isn't going to be able to overcome the gearbox connection to the wheel and thus is going to slip (unless it drags like crazy, then its going to accelerate the wheel!).

Basically what I am trying to say is that the whole point of the blip is to match the engine speed to the gear/wheel speed so that when the clutch is engaged the wheel does not have to try and accelerate the engine, not synchronize the gear speed to the new shaft/wheel speed for a smoother shift. This is why a blip is unneeded or needed less if one has a slipper clutch (depending on how much the slipper clutch slips).

There is no reason to stop blipping if you do and have a slipper clutch. It's not hurting anything, and may infact help if you have a slipper clutch that still allows a lot of engine braking.

A few motorcycles do have have all the gears on the primary shaft fixed and the gears on the secondary free spinning and use a engagement ring between the gears on the secondary shaft to engage gears to the secondary shaft like a more traditional/car gearbox. This is usually only found on older motorcycles or crusers. Yamaha or some other metric cruser released such a gearbox recently (which allowed them to use helical cut gears, however the trade off was the gearbox is wider (not really an issue for a cruser)). This kind of gearbox could be used to synchronize shifts IF you were allowed to select neutral between gears and engage or have a crazy dragging clutch.

Sorry this post is so long. I am pretty bad at putting things into words and I am sure there is quite a bit of redundancy and spelling/grammer errors in this post. If you read this far, congratulations, you get a cookie!

kzmille
01-11-2007, 02:18 AM
...Basically what I am trying to say is that the whole point of the blip is to match the engine speed to the gear/wheel speed so that when the clutch is engaged the wheel does not have to try and accelerate the engine, not synchronize the gear speed to the new shaft/wheel speed for a smoother shift. This is why a blip is unneeded or needed less if one has a slipper clutch (depending on how much the slipper clutch slips).100% correct.


There is no reason to stop blipping if you do and have a slipper clutch. It's not hurting anything, and may infact help if you have a slipper clutch that still allows a lot of engine braking.
Slipper clutch or not, blipping the throttle to match engine speed to the selected gear will make you a smoother rider. Having a slipper clutch set to slip a lot makes it easy to get away with being sloppy. I notice a lot of riders downshift early and rev the engine very high. Delaying the downshift so the engine doesn't rev so high will reduce the chance of bouncing your valves or melting a rod bearing. It is a big twin after all. Use that torque.

Leoallafila
01-11-2007, 05:02 AM
You are right, there is usually still some friction between the plates when the clutch is disengaged. However this is not enough to turn the primary shaft much, even in neutral, unless the clutch is improperly setup (or a stretched cable / air in the line (something I am sure you 04 guys are used to)). With a properly setup clutch the amount of friction between between the plates while the clutch is disengaged is so little that a blip of the throttle will exceed the friction and break free, spinning the primary shaft little to none.

There is also another problem I addressed in the second part of my post. Not all gears on the primary shaft are fixed nor all of the gears on the secondary shaft free spinning on bearings in most motorcycle sequential gearboxes. There are fixed, sliding, and free spinning gears on both shafts.

Because of a sequential gearboxes inablity to select neutral between gears other than first and second (by design, ignoring false neutrals), and that not all gears on the primar shaft are fixed, the blip is usless in trying to synchronize the gearbox for shifts.

Why the blip doesn't work in synchronizing the gearbox is because of these reasons...
1: The clutch is disengaged. What little friction that is there isn't enough
2: Can't select neutral between gears which would allow you to engage the clutch
3: Not all gears on the primary are fixed nor or all gears on the secondary free spinning.

By design of a sequential gearbox, the time between gear being de-selected and the next gear being selected is short, however the is a short time between shifts (measured in nanoseconds) where no gear is selected (a neutral if you will, this is where the engagement ring/gear gets stuck in a false neutral). This is where a blip could be used to synchronize the gearbox if it wasn't for the fact that in most motorcycle gearboxes the primary gears arn't all fixed, and the friction between the plates of a disengaged clutch is easly broken.

Lets say you are shifting from fourth to third, and lets say for the hell of it you are able to select neutral between fourth and third and thus engage the clutch and blip the throttle. You still may not be able to synchronize the gearbox for the shift to third because the gear on the primary shaft that is part of the third gear set may be free spinning. This means your spinning of the primary shaft did little to nothing to speed up the gear on the primary shaft. However in the real world there is no neutral between gears (other than first and second for most bikes), and the time between gear selections in which no gear is selected is very very small and not enough time to engage the clutch.

Lets now say there is enough friction between the plates of a disengaged clutch to spin the primary shaft (while in neutral). Being the time between gear selection in which no gear is selected is so small that most of the time during the blip one gear or another is going to be selected. If the blip was able to turn the primary shaft while the clutch was disengaged then this would translate to acceleration at the wheel. That however brings in another issue, a disengaged clutch (even one that drags quite a bit) isn't going to be able to overcome the gearbox connection to the wheel and thus is going to slip (unless it drags like crazy, then its going to accelerate the wheel!).

Basically what I am trying to say is that the whole point of the blip is to match the engine speed to the gear/wheel speed so that when the clutch is engaged the wheel does not have to try and accelerate the engine, not synchronize the gear speed to the new shaft/wheel speed for a smoother shift. This is why a blip is unneeded or needed less if one has a slipper clutch (depending on how much the slipper clutch slips).

There is no reason to stop blipping if you do and have a slipper clutch. It's not hurting anything, and may infact help if you have a slipper clutch that still allows a lot of engine braking.

A few motorcycles do have have all the gears on the primary shaft fixed and the gears on the secondary free spinning and use a engagement ring between the gears on the secondary shaft to engage gears to the secondary shaft like a more traditional/car gearbox. This is usually only found on older motorcycles or crusers. Yamaha or some other metric cruser released such a gearbox recently (which allowed them to use helical cut gears, however the trade off was the gearbox is wider (not really an issue for a cruser)). This kind of gearbox could be used to synchronize shifts IF you were allowed to select neutral between gears and engage or have a crazy dragging clutch.

Sorry this post is so long. I am pretty bad at putting things into words and I am sure there is quite a bit of redundancy and spelling/grammer errors in this post. If you read this far, congratulations, you get a cookie!



way too technical for my English but very well put down and interesting, :plus: but I have a question:

lets say you are riding at 7000 in 5th gear and you pull the clutch so the engine revvs down to approx idle. What happends if you try to downshift at this point? You hear a tremendous CLANG, why is that?

And again if you put yourself in the same condition as above, but you open the throttle (still holding the clutch) to get the engine to run on approx (let's say) 7000 rpms and you downshift, the gear will engage smoothly, or am I wrong? :confused:

William the Third
01-11-2007, 11:39 PM
way too technical for my English but very well put down and interesting, :plus: but I have a question:

lets say you are riding at 7000 in 5th gear and you pull the clutch so the engine revvs down to approx idle. What happends if you try to downshift at this point? You hear a tremendous CLANG, why is that?

And again if you put yourself in the same condition as above, but you open the throttle (still holding the clutch) to get the engine to run on approx (let's say) 7000 rpms and you downshift, the gear will engage smoothly, or am I wrong? :confused:
I can't say that I have ever let an engine drop to or near idle while shifting (atleast not that I can remember) so I have never experienced this. If it's just a sound, it's probably just you being able to hear the noisy gearbox (sequential gearbox can be pretty noisy) better now that the engine is running slow and more quietly.

If there is more to it than just sound, it could be there is enough friction between the plates of the disengaged clutch to ever so slightly slow the primary shaft down during the brief fraction of a second that there is nothing selected between gear changes. This of course depends on what gears are fixed, sliding, or free spining on which shaft.

The reason blipping or holding the throttle at say 7000 could seem more smooth could be the louder engine makes it harder to hear. It also could be that the higher reving engine is able to overcome the small amount of friction between the disengaged clutch plates and thus doesn't change the speed of the primary shaft as much if at all (after all, in most cases, it is easier for friction to slow something down than to speed it up), again depending on how the gear are setup on each shaft.

Now if the clutch is dragging significantly (like the 04's which were prone to getting air in the system... did aprilia ever fix this on 05 and up bikes?), then that could cause such a problem, no matter what the engine speed is (however it would be worse at lower rpm), because the gearbox is still very much connected to the the engine.

cwalker
01-12-2007, 09:34 PM
somehow the oem 'slipper' clutch didn't seem to be able to cope with project armageddon... :rolleyes: i guess 'semi' slipper clutch would be a good word for it...