My Prototype Motorcycle......FX bikes beware - ApriliaForum sponsored by AF1 Racing, inc.

velocityjunky · 11-23-2007, 03:58 PM

Well, a friend of mine, Dustin Griffith, and I are working on degrees in Industrial Design, and we had to come up with a final project........

A good while ago I saw the promotional video from www.fxbikes.com here on the forum. Its basically a motorcycle that uses lightweight components from the downhill industry to create a new market segment. It really interested me because I have a background in freeride mountain bikes, and have since switched over to dirt bikes.

and, Dustin practically grew up on a dirt bike.......

So its been about a year and a half since we really decided to go forward with this project.......we're calling it Project M85

We began with comparisons of motorcycles vs downhill bikes and came up with some measurements to stick to:

We then started research about parts in both industries. What could be adapted for this purpose and why it was the best choice.

We started with the motor. The FXbike runs a punched out xr50 motor: simple, air cooled, torquey, but slow and heavy. in our opinion this is the first place the FXbike could improve.

We looked at two strokes for their weight, but were worried that the powerband would not lend itself well to this application. We found that the modern kx85/100 is a powervalve motor and is easily tuned for a mellow trail application.

We decided on the 85cc because we were a little worried that the 100cc would be too much, but if needed we could always bore the 85 to 100cc. We had the cylinder decked and ported for low-end power (THANKS JOSH) and added a 10oz flywheel weight.

We then looked at suspension and found that little in the bicycle world would really hold up to the demands of this application. While these components are overbuilt for mountain bikes they don't allow much adjustment in valving or spring selection, basically they will allow for a heavy rider on a 50lb bicycle and no more.

We then found Craig Seekins at Avalanche Downhill Racing and realized that he made the components that we needed. Craig started as a dirt bike suspension tuner and then took his knowledge to the downhill industry. His shocks and forks could be compared to scaled down motocross units. The forks are the equivalent to Honda CR250 forks that weigh 11lbs. and bolt to a mountain bike.......

Craig helped us out with the forks first and valved them for a 180lb rider on a 125lb bike, to get the proper spring rate he modified springs from a mini motocross bike. These forks give us 8 inches of travel with compression and rebound adjustment.

We discussed the rear suspension with Craig, as we originally thought about going with a single pivot design like KTM and the FXbike. But the only way to make that work would be with a dual stage valving shock (without the use of complex valving you would blow through the travel and have little benefits from damping). No bicycle shock could be valved to work well on a single pivot design. In our opinion this is the second place the FXbike could improve.

So we went looking for rear suspension geometries that would work. Since we knew that we were going to be using a bicycle shock, we wanted to use a system from a mountain bike. It is easier to adapt an entire proven system rather than start from scratch.

Most high end bicycle suspensions are concerned with eliminating pedal-bob, and in doing so the swingarm pivot's relation to the crank is completely different than what would be desirable in a motorized application. We needed a system with pivot relationships that could be adapted to the kx85's countershaft and swingarm pivot, all while leaving enough room for the shock, carburetor, kickstarter, ect....

We found that the Turner DHR had a well designed linkage system that is simple yet effective.

The DHR has 8.5 inches of rear travel, we were wanting something in the 10 inch range. So we drew the system up in CAD and scaled it 18%. This adjustment appeared to give us enough room to fit everything around the motor.

Suspension systems rely on a ratio between the axle travel distance and shock piston stroke. So if we increase wheel travel by 18% we have to increase the shock's piston stroke by the same. Craig was able to provide us a shock which was scaled appropriately and is sprung and valved for our needs. It is adjustable for compression, rebound, and preload. THANKS CRAIG

With the power and suspenders figured out we wanted to get it to the ground somehow. We decided on using a motorcycle type rear wheel/tire (bicycle components wouldn't be able to apply this type of power). We had a KTM mini-bike rear hub laced to a 21 inch excel hoop, then spooned on a (edit) Michelin, THANKS DAN, trials tire. If anything would get traction this thing would.

Front traction is handled by a Michelin dual compound downhill tire on a FUNN downhill rim/hub. THANKS BOBBY AND NYLE FROM MOJO WHEELS for downhill parts support.

Rear brake is a mini-motocross Formula setup (THANKS THOR AT KHS) and the front brake is a Hope downhill hydraulic disc setup. Its the strongest bicycle brake we could find, but it may be a weak point as it was never deigned to stop anything like this.

We had a huge rear sprocket made for it, to bring the top speed down from over 100mph (theoretical) to about 55-60.....

With the main components decided on we went about sketching, and coming up with concepts as to what the thing would look like.

After many sketches and scale study models we came up with this design (red renders well and is easily manipulated for color studies):

Next was the design of the suspension, using Solidworks we created a 3d model of the entire system. THANKS TO RODNEY CLARK AND DEVIN LENZ for structural analysis

With the concept finalized and the suspension designed, I called on some of my friends at a machine shop to help us out. THANKS STEVIE & ALL OF S&K SUPPLY. We had the swingarm parts cnc'd out of 6061 then welded and heat treated. While the linkages were cnc'd out of 7075 for strength. THANKS JOHN

Deciding on 1in dia. 0.060 wall 4130 Chromoly, the motor went into a jig and we built a tubing bender.

Tubing was laid then welded together (the 2 main rails consist of 5 bends each and are mirrored, that was extremely difficult) THANKS DAVE YOU MADE IT HAPPEN

With the frame and swingarm built, we started on the seat and fuel tank. After speaking with John Wanberg, a composites specialist, We decide to attempt a two part fiberglass tank with an aluminium filler neck. THANKS JOHN AND ALL THE GUYS AT PLASTICARE

Start with a foam buck

Create the molds

Cast the 2 halves, glass in all the hardware, petcock, and filler neck. then seam them together with epoxy paste and grind to finish. THANKS RICHARD AT AAA METRIC

The seat pan was laid then a negative mold was taken from that. we can now make multiples if needed. We cast the seat pan and installed the hardware. Then painted it and sent it to the upholstery shop for foam and cover. THANKS F&H UPHOLSTERY

Next was the body work. We built an armature around the frame to add automotive clay to, and began to sculpt the shape.

We cast fiberglass molds off of the final clay model and laid parts
These are the first parts to come out....they are a little thin but they will work as "presentaion parts" (we will have a strong set that is of decent finish to ride with, and we'll have this set that is finished well and only goes on for pictures/presentation)

(the sturdy parts that will be ridden are curing in the mold as i type this!)

We then weighed it. Sans paint and fluids, it came to just under 125lbs, which is exactly what we were shooting for (we really thought we'd come in at 130-135, so were very happy that it hit the mark).

So finally on the snowy eve of thanksgiving we were up till 12:00am putting it together and making sure everything was right...... and at 10:00am on thanksgiving day we took it for its first test ride.

velocityjunky · 11-23-2007, 04:06 PM

Here it is in its skelatal form.........

There have been some minor teething problems, and were going to need some loctite

. But, overall the bike works well. It should be finished here in a couple of weeks so I'll post updates as needed..to bad its cold and snowy.....

Best of all it doesnt headshake all over the place when you get on the power.

...and yes its fast......

SOMEONES GONNA GET HURT

velocityjunky · 11-23-2007, 04:17 PM

So thats a more than a year of my life wrapped up into 2 posts.....wow
It couldn't of happened without a group of skilled friends....thanks again to everyone that helped us out!

and.......THANKS TO AF1 FOR THE BANDWIDTH!!!!!

Hope you enjoy our creation

drako · 11-23-2007, 04:26 PM

VERY COOL! What are your future plans?

pry4ski · 11-23-2007, 04:29 PM

That bike looks like it is a blast to ride.

velocityjunky · 11-23-2007, 04:30 PM

I dont know whats in store for the future.....right now we're just "over the moon " that it has come this far.

Maybe one with a crf150r motor in it

....or, if anyone knows of any motorcycle manufacturers that are hiring?

Jet City Racer · 11-23-2007, 05:28 PM

I'm afraid to ask what the total cost and hours were, but................

RSV4ME · 11-23-2007, 05:30 PM

Man, what an awesome project, well done!

Any short production runs in the future........?

velocityjunky · 11-23-2007, 05:40 PM

well Don,
we have about $8500 in it, (without a certain scholarship it wouldnt have happened) but the experience and knowledge gained are priceless.............

as far as total hours....lost track. couple thousand easy.

RSV, no production plans at the moment.......anyone have a couple million they want to invest?

NeoGeniX · 11-23-2007, 06:06 PM

Holy cow thats cool. I want to do something like this too!

It reminds me a bit of the sikk trail bike but way better.

If these where produced I think they would sell like hot cakes! Esspecially a sumo version.

velocityjunky · 11-23-2007, 08:21 PM

thanks for the all of the praise guys, its been a long road and to get this kind of response is great.

Jet Nero · 11-23-2007, 08:34 PM

Wow.

When I got out of school I was nowhere near the most talented candidate for the jobs I wanted. But I had something that the others forgot to develop: the ability to present myself and my work. I learned how to work a room.

We can see that the project is incredible. But can you promote it? Can you inspire others to believe in it/you?

Get some advise from friends and family who are advertising/marketing and public relations professionals and read all you can on those subjects.

Take your sketches from beginning concepts to finished photographs and create a decent presentation that you can send to manufacturers or product design firms.

Something tells me that with your work ethic and creative ability you'll have your pick of opportunities soon.

I'd love to hear feedback from someone like Erik Buell. FYI, you'd be surprised how accessible folks like that are when they are inspired...

velocityjunky · 11-23-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet Nero

Wow.

When I got out of school I was nowhere near the most talented candidate for the jobs I wanted. But I had something that the others forgot to develop: the ability to present myself and my work. I learned how to work a room.

We can see that the project is incredible. But can you promote it? Can you inspire others to believe in it/you?

Get some advise from friends and family who are advertising/marketing and public relations professionals and read all you can on those subjects.

Take your sketches from beginning concepts to finished photographs and create a decent presentation that you can send to manufacturers or product design firms.

Something tells me that with your work ethic and creative ability you'll have your pick of opportunities soon.

I'd love to hear feedback from someone like Erik Buell. FYI, you'd be surprised how accessible folks like that are when they are inspired...

Jet Nero,

Thank you for the advice. I feel that being able to promote an idea is just as important as the idea itself, and I feel like I am growing in that respect.

We are currently working on a formal presentation and hope to send it to the "right people".

This project was about going big, expecting more, and delivering the most we could. So far we have succeeded in making this a reality.
It's actually surreal, to be honest.

All along, we've wanted to make waves and open doors, I hope we are on our way.

multimoto · 11-23-2007, 10:03 PM

That thing is sweet.. Maybe just a little bit of a rear fender might balance it out a bit.. I like it with the small ktm front fender as well. I would buy one of these. I agree on this being a segment that is overlooked. They just need to figure out some sort of electric / fuel cell power next!

ckruzel · 11-23-2007, 11:17 PM

very cool, not sure what your naming it, but if you want a couple of decals or something just let me know

11-23-2007, 03:58 PM	#1
velocityjunky apriliaforum expert Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 863	My Prototype Motorcycle......FX bikes beware Well, a friend of mine, Dustin Griffith, and I are working on degrees in Industrial Design, and we had to come up with a final project........ A good while ago I saw the promotional video from www.fxbikes.com here on the forum. Its basically a motorcycle that uses lightweight components from the downhill industry to create a new market segment. It really interested me because I have a background in freeride mountain bikes, and have since switched over to dirt bikes. and, Dustin practically grew up on a dirt bike....... So its been about a year and a half since we really decided to go forward with this project.......we're calling it Project M85 We began with comparisons of motorcycles vs downhill bikes and came up with some measurements to stick to: We then started research about parts in both industries. What could be adapted for this purpose and why it was the best choice. We started with the motor. The FXbike runs a punched out xr50 motor: simple, air cooled, torquey, but slow and heavy. in our opinion this is the first place the FXbike could improve. We looked at two strokes for their weight, but were worried that the powerband would not lend itself well to this application. We found that the modern kx85/100 is a powervalve motor and is easily tuned for a mellow trail application. We decided on the 85cc because we were a little worried that the 100cc would be too much, but if needed we could always bore the 85 to 100cc. We had the cylinder decked and ported for low-end power (THANKS JOSH) and added a 10oz flywheel weight. We then looked at suspension and found that little in the bicycle world would really hold up to the demands of this application. While these components are overbuilt for mountain bikes they don't allow much adjustment in valving or spring selection, basically they will allow for a heavy rider on a 50lb bicycle and no more. We then found Craig Seekins at Avalanche Downhill Racing and realized that he made the components that we needed. Craig started as a dirt bike suspension tuner and then took his knowledge to the downhill industry. His shocks and forks could be compared to scaled down motocross units. The forks are the equivalent to Honda CR250 forks that weigh 11lbs. and bolt to a mountain bike....... Craig helped us out with the forks first and valved them for a 180lb rider on a 125lb bike, to get the proper spring rate he modified springs from a mini motocross bike. These forks give us 8 inches of travel with compression and rebound adjustment. We discussed the rear suspension with Craig, as we originally thought about going with a single pivot design like KTM and the FXbike. But the only way to make that work would be with a dual stage valving shock (without the use of complex valving you would blow through the travel and have little benefits from damping). No bicycle shock could be valved to work well on a single pivot design. In our opinion this is the second place the FXbike could improve. So we went looking for rear suspension geometries that would work. Since we knew that we were going to be using a bicycle shock, we wanted to use a system from a mountain bike. It is easier to adapt an entire proven system rather than start from scratch. Most high end bicycle suspensions are concerned with eliminating pedal-bob, and in doing so the swingarm pivot's relation to the crank is completely different than what would be desirable in a motorized application. We needed a system with pivot relationships that could be adapted to the kx85's countershaft and swingarm pivot, all while leaving enough room for the shock, carburetor, kickstarter, ect.... We found that the Turner DHR had a well designed linkage system that is simple yet effective. The DHR has 8.5 inches of rear travel, we were wanting something in the 10 inch range. So we drew the system up in CAD and scaled it 18%. This adjustment appeared to give us enough room to fit everything around the motor. Suspension systems rely on a ratio between the axle travel distance and shock piston stroke. So if we increase wheel travel by 18% we have to increase the shock's piston stroke by the same. Craig was able to provide us a shock which was scaled appropriately and is sprung and valved for our needs. It is adjustable for compression, rebound, and preload. THANKS CRAIG With the power and suspenders figured out we wanted to get it to the ground somehow. We decided on using a motorcycle type rear wheel/tire (bicycle components wouldn't be able to apply this type of power). We had a KTM mini-bike rear hub laced to a 21 inch excel hoop, then spooned on a (edit) Michelin, THANKS DAN, trials tire. If anything would get traction this thing would. Front traction is handled by a Michelin dual compound downhill tire on a FUNN downhill rim/hub. THANKS BOBBY AND NYLE FROM MOJO WHEELS for downhill parts support. Rear brake is a mini-motocross Formula setup (THANKS THOR AT KHS) and the front brake is a Hope downhill hydraulic disc setup. Its the strongest bicycle brake we could find, but it may be a weak point as it was never deigned to stop anything like this. We had a huge rear sprocket made for it, to bring the top speed down from over 100mph (theoretical) to about 55-60..... With the main components decided on we went about sketching, and coming up with concepts as to what the thing would look like. After many sketches and scale study models we came up with this design (red renders well and is easily manipulated for color studies): Next was the design of the suspension, using Solidworks we created a 3d model of the entire system. THANKS TO RODNEY CLARK AND DEVIN LENZ for structural analysis With the concept finalized and the suspension designed, I called on some of my friends at a machine shop to help us out. THANKS STEVIE & ALL OF S&K SUPPLY. We had the swingarm parts cnc'd out of 6061 then welded and heat treated. While the linkages were cnc'd out of 7075 for strength. THANKS JOHN Deciding on 1in dia. 0.060 wall 4130 Chromoly, the motor went into a jig and we built a tubing bender. Tubing was laid then welded together (the 2 main rails consist of 5 bends each and are mirrored, that was extremely difficult) THANKS DAVE YOU MADE IT HAPPEN With the frame and swingarm built, we started on the seat and fuel tank. After speaking with John Wanberg, a composites specialist, We decide to attempt a two part fiberglass tank with an aluminium filler neck. THANKS JOHN AND ALL THE GUYS AT PLASTICARE Start with a foam buck Create the molds Cast the 2 halves, glass in all the hardware, petcock, and filler neck. then seam them together with epoxy paste and grind to finish. THANKS RICHARD AT AAA METRIC The seat pan was laid then a negative mold was taken from that. we can now make multiples if needed. We cast the seat pan and installed the hardware. Then painted it and sent it to the upholstery shop for foam and cover. THANKS F&H UPHOLSTERY Next was the body work. We built an armature around the frame to add automotive clay to, and began to sculpt the shape. We cast fiberglass molds off of the final clay model and laid parts These are the first parts to come out....they are a little thin but they will work as "presentaion parts" (we will have a strong set that is of decent finish to ride with, and we'll have this set that is finished well and only goes on for pictures/presentation) (the sturdy parts that will be ridden are curing in the mold as i type this!) We then weighed it. Sans paint and fluids, it came to just under 125lbs, which is exactly what we were shooting for (we really thought we'd come in at 130-135, so were very happy that it hit the mark). So finally on the snowy eve of thanksgiving we were up till 12:00am putting it together and making sure everything was right...... and at 10:00am on thanksgiving day we took it for its first test ride. __________________ Motorcycles- No better way to turn money into smoke and noise Last edited by velocityjunky; 02-24-2008 at 08:24 PM. Reason: recognizing sponsor

11-23-2007, 04:06 PM	#2
velocityjunky apriliaforum expert Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 863	Prototypes First Ride Here it is in its skelatal form......... There have been some minor teething problems, and were going to need some loctite. But, overall the bike works well. It should be finished here in a couple of weeks so I'll post updates as needed..to bad its cold and snowy..... Best of all it doesnt headshake all over the place when you get on the power. ...and yes its fast...... SOMEONES GONNA GET HURT __________________ Motorcycles- No better way to turn money into smoke and noise Last edited by velocityjunky; 02-17-2008 at 01:18 PM.

11-23-2007, 04:17 PM	#3
velocityjunky apriliaforum expert Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 863	So thats a more than a year of my life wrapped up into 2 posts.....wow It couldn't of happened without a group of skilled friends....thanks again to everyone that helped us out! and.......THANKS TO AF1 FOR THE BANDWIDTH!!!!! Hope you enjoy our creation __________________ Motorcycles- No better way to turn money into smoke and noise Last edited by velocityjunky; 02-17-2008 at 01:20 PM.

11-23-2007, 04:26 PM	#4
drako apriliaforum Junkie Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Louisiana Posts: 299	VERY COOL! What are your future plans? __________________ "I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble." - John Wayne 04' RSVR Factory 09' Subaru Impreza WRX STI

11-23-2007, 04:30 PM	#6
velocityjunky apriliaforum expert Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 863	I dont know whats in store for the future.....right now we're just "over the moon " that it has come this far. Maybe one with a crf150r motor in it ....or, if anyone knows of any motorcycle manufacturers that are hiring? __________________ Motorcycles- No better way to turn money into smoke and noise Last edited by velocityjunky; 02-17-2008 at 01:20 PM.

11-23-2007, 04:29 PM	#5
pry4ski apriliaforum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Sandy, OR Posts: 235	That bike looks like it is a blast to ride.

11-23-2007, 05:28 PM	#7
Jet City Racer apriliaforum expert Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hey F*ckers!!! Posts: 16,373	What else can I say? I'm afraid to ask what the total cost and hours were, but................ __________________ "Racing is life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting." Steve McQueen *JET CITY RACING* *Faster than the speed of darkness!* www.myspace.com/jetcityracer WMRRA #63 AFRP #1 2009 Sponsors: Your name here....... www.kbchelmet.com www.drippinwet.com www.rhinomoto.com www.lockhartphillipsusa.com www.spidergrips.com www.hotbodiesracing.com www.kfgracing.com www.hinshawsmotorcyclestore.com www.rockstar69.com

11-23-2007, 05:30 PM	#8
RSV4ME apriliaforum expert Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Denver, Co. Posts: 1,658	Man, what an awesome project, well done! Any short production runs in the future........? __________________ I am the Nightrider! I am a fuel-injected suicide machine! I am a rocker! I am a roller! I am an out-of-controller! I am the Chosen One! The mighty hand of Vengeance! Sent down to strike the unroadworthy! I'm hotter than a rolling dice! Step right up, chum, and watch the kid lay down a rubber road right to freedom!

11-23-2007, 05:40 PM	#9
velocityjunky apriliaforum expert Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 863	well Don, we have about $8500 in it, (without a certain scholarship it wouldnt have happened) but the experience and knowledge gained are priceless............. as far as total hours....lost track. couple thousand easy. RSV, no production plans at the moment.......anyone have a couple million they want to invest? __________________ Motorcycles- No better way to turn money into smoke and noise Last edited by velocityjunky; 11-23-2007 at 09:03 PM.

11-23-2007, 06:06 PM	#10
NeoGeniX apriliaforum expert Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: the Netherlands-Europe Posts: 2,875	Holy cow thats cool. I want to do something like this too! It reminds me a bit of the sikk trail bike but way better. If these where produced I think they would sell like hot cakes! Esspecially a sumo version. __________________ Check out Aprilia News for the latest Aprilia news,pics and videos(click above) Supermoto Central - 100% Supermoto

11-23-2007, 08:21 PM	#11
velocityjunky apriliaforum expert Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 863	thanks for the all of the praise guys, its been a long road and to get this kind of response is great. __________________ Motorcycles- No better way to turn money into smoke and noise Last edited by velocityjunky; 11-23-2007 at 08:59 PM.

11-23-2007, 08:34 PM	#12
Jet Nero apriliaforum prov-nov Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 76	Wow. When I got out of school I was nowhere near the most talented candidate for the jobs I wanted. But I had something that the others forgot to develop: the ability to present myself and my work. I learned how to work a room. We can see that the project is incredible. But can you promote it? Can you inspire others to believe in it/you? Get some advise from friends and family who are advertising/marketing and public relations professionals and read all you can on those subjects. Take your sketches from beginning concepts to finished photographs and create a decent presentation that you can send to manufacturers or product design firms. Something tells me that with your work ethic and creative ability you'll have your pick of opportunities soon. I'd love to hear feedback from someone like Erik Buell. FYI, you'd be surprised how accessible folks like that are when they are inspired...

11-23-2007, 10:03 PM	#14
multimoto apriliaforum expert Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Clemente CA Posts: 1,227	That thing is sweet.. Maybe just a little bit of a rear fender might balance it out a bit.. I like it with the small ktm front fender as well. I would buy one of these. I agree on this being a segment that is overlooked. They just need to figure out some sort of electric / fuel cell power next! __________________ 2003 Aprilia RSV 1000 Tuono 2010 Yamaha YZ 450F 2009 Honda CRF 450X 2008 Toyota Tacoma

11-23-2007, 11:17 PM	#15
ckruzel Graphicologist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: NorthEast PA Posts: 15,976	very cool, not sure what your naming it, but if you want a couple of decals or something just let me know __________________ 2010 White RSV4R Custom Graphics decal questions? email me at kruzel (at)drippinwet.com / iphone - mobile (at) drippinwet.com find me on facebook! making decals for the some of the fastest people on the planet Josh Hayes \| Melissa Paris \| Josh Herrin \| Jeff Agnes \| Dane Westby \| Taylor Knapp \| Garrett Carter \| Chaz Davies \| Aaron Gobert \| Clinton Seller \| Santiago Villa \| Corey Rech \| Huntley Nash \| Benny Solis \| Payton Sassaman \| M3 Roadracing \| Josh Day \| AF1 Racing \| Van Blaylock \| Don Dahl \| Brandon Cretu \| Cory West \| Chris Filmore \| Alex Welsh \| Elena Myers \| Martin Cardenas \| Danny Eslick are my decals durable? just ask the starboyz!

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