Hyperpro? Wirth/Touratech?

[ra2bach]

OK, I know that many have been happy with the upgrade to the suspension so count me in but what I'm REALLY interested in, is a set of heavier springs for the forks and especially the shock.

I'm not a small guy but when I put on a passenger, or load up for a trip, I want the ability to dial up the preload to accomodate, rather than riding with it maxed out for just my solo weight as it is now .

Shouldn't somebody be able to simply replace the OEM spring for a higher rate spring? Did somebody mention that a spacer could be used in the forks to achive some measure of preload? Is this a useful mod?

[ian-parkes]

I think many posts have dealt with this . The hyperpro springs will do just what you require.

Yes a spacer in the top of the fork and some extra and thicker oil works ok , but not as progressive or as much feel as the Hyperpro.

10 - 15mm spacer on top of what is there is plenty , and up to 100ml more oil per leg 15 or 20w . Try 10mm and 50ml extra oil first as the max I quoted there made the fork quite harsh.

As for the rear it needs a better spring

[ra2bach]

I think many posts have dealt with this . The hyperpro springs will do just what you require.

Yes a spacer in the top of the fork and some extra and thicker oil works ok , but not as progressive or as much feel as the Hyperpro.

10 - 15mm spacer on top of what is there is plenty , and up to 100ml more oil per leg 15 or 20w . Try 10mm and 50ml extra oil first as the max I quoted there made the fork quite harsh.

As for the rear it needs a better spring

thanks Ian, I have taken the time to go back and read as many threads as I could find regarding this but I saw no mention of what the springs were rated.

As you know, what may work for a 150 lb. rider will be inadequate for a 250 lb. rider and increasing preload is not the correct solution, though it may help. The only proper solution is to fit the proper rate of spring for the combined weight of rider, gear, and luggage. Since I am closer to the second figure than the first and with riding gear on I exceed that, I want to find the correct rate that would allow me to ride solo with little to no preload, and then dial in preload to compensate for luggage or passenger.

I suppose that increasing preload to compensate for a passenger or luggage is OK as the bike will generally not be used as hard when two-up as solo and unladen.

I checked the Hyper-Pro website and read their explanation of their progressive springs and while i can see the benefit in the forks, I am confused as to the benefit in any shock utilizing a rising rate linkage as the Capo does. No racer that i can think of uses a rising rate spring so I was wondering if it might be possible to source a heavier spring directly from Sachs or its importer.

again, thanks for your reply.

[dazdconfsd]

I checked the Hyper-Pro website and read their explanation of their progressive springs and while i can see the benefit in the forks, I am confused as to the benefit in any shock utilizing a rising rate linkage as the Capo does. No racer that i can think of uses a rising rate spring so I was wondering if it might be possible to source a heavier spring directly from Sachs or its importer.

again, thanks for your reply.

I was skeptical too, but it does transform the bike. I haven't had a time to go to the mountains since I put them in, but in the large sweepers out west it made the bike soo much better it isn't even funny. I plan on going across Wolf Pen Gap and up Blood Mountain as soon as I can to see the difference there also.

[ra2bach]

I was skeptical too, but it does transform the bike. I haven't had a time to go to the mountains since I put them in, but in the large sweepers out west it made the bike soo much better it isn't even funny. I plan on going across Wolf Pen Gap and up Blood Mountain as soon as I can to see the difference there also.

really? how heavy are you? with your gear on?

since you are local (I'm in Alpharetta), maybe I can join you on that ride and if you wouldn't mind I could ride your bike so to get a back-to-back sample?

[dazdconfsd]

really? how heavy are you? with your gear on?

I'd rather not think about that but I'm not small or light and things are worse two up with luggage.

since you are local (I'm in Alpharetta), maybe I can join you on that ride and if you wouldn't mind I could ride your bike so to get a back-to-back sample?

I think something like that could be arranged. I'll be going for sure in the next couple weeks. I gotta see how the schedule works out.

[ian-parkes]

No racer uses a rising rate spring ???

KTM do , and what they race is pretty much what you buy , probably the best suspension I have ever come across on an off the shelf bike

[ra2bach]

No racer uses a rising rate spring ???

KTM do , and what they race is pretty much what you buy , probably the best suspension I have ever come across on an off the shelf bike

OK Ian, I was unaware of that.

But are you sure they use a "progressive" rate spring in their shock? Modern shock linkage is progressive by nature and I don't see how usiong a progressive or rising rate spring helps matters. Maybe you were talking about the forks?

[Captain Capo]

Far be it from me to jump in on a conversation.....

The Hyperpro spring for both shocks and forks are rising rate - if you look at the pictures on their website you can see that the coils have a variable spacing. So as the spring compresses the tightly spaced coils close up and the spring becomes shorter - shorter springs have a higher rate (assuming the other properties are the same).

It seems to me that in practice the spring is only variable for a proportion of the suspension travel - since the spring is never compressed enough to close up more tahn a small proportion of the coils.

You can feel the rising rate on the sock, if you stand behind the bike and bounce it.

I've found the set up works well for solo and passenger/luggage - I think Hyperpro claim that you don't need to adjsut the preload i.e. its self adjusting- I've not founfd this (unsurprisingly) and adjust the preload to regain the rear ride height.

There seem to be folks of differing weights happy with the springs - may be folks could post weights.... Here's mine

Solo weight: 90kg/198 lbs in riding gear
Pasenger: 57kg/125lbs in riding gear
Luggage: 15kg/33lbs with passenger

A question: what's wrong with having rising rate springs - there's a rising rate mechanism - what's the difference? I know Racetech don't like them, but then they wouldn't becuase they don't sell them. WP use them on KTM's where there's no rising rate linkage.

CC

[ra2bach]

Far be it from me to jump in on a conversation.....

The Hyperpro spring for both shocks and forks are rising rate - if you look at the pictures on their website you can see that the coils have a variable spacing. So as the spring compresses the tightly spaced coils close up and the spring becomes shorter - shorter springs have a higher rate (assuming the other properties are the same).

It seems to me that in practice the spring is only variable for a proportion of the suspension travel - since the spring is never compressed enough to close up more tahn a small proportion of the coils.

You can feel the rising rate on the sock, if you stand behind the bike and bounce it.

I've found the set up works well for solo and passenger/luggage - I think Hyperpro claim that you don't need to adjsut the preload i.e. its self adjusting- I've not founfd this (unsurprisingly) and adjust the preload to regain the rear ride height.

There seem to be folks of differing weights happy with the springs - may be folks could post weights.... Here's mine

Solo weight: 90kg/198 lbs in riding gear
Pasenger: 57kg/125lbs in riding gear
Luggage: 15kg/33lbs with passenger

A question: what's wrong with having rising rate springs - there's a rising rate mechanism - what's the difference? I know Racetech don't like them, but then they wouldn't becuase they don't sell them. WP use them on KTM's where there's no rising rate linkage.

CC

well, it would take a lot more time and space than we hgave available to answer your questions here but this is a short summary taken from sportrider magazine that describes the need for the correct spring rates in suspension tuning:

"The first step to a good setup is setting static sag. For street purposes, front sag should generally be between 30 and 35mm, and rear sag between 25 and 30mm. Don't vary from these numbers if you're heavier or lighter--that's the whole idea of measuring sag while you are on the bike. An easy way to check if your shock spring rate is in the ballpark is to measure the rear "free" sag, that is, the sag without your weight on the bike. This number should be between 0 and 5mm--with the bike off its stand and on its own, you should be able to lift the rear end just slightly and top out the suspension. If your bike is topped out at rest, you need a stiffer spring, because you have got a lot of preload dialed in to achieve the correct static sag. Alternately, if your bike has a lot of free sag (you can lift the rear a bunch before it tops out), you need a softer spring."

the rest of the very informative series of articles can be found here:

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0006_susp_dialin/

as for the straight vs. progressive spring thing, I'll try to find Paul theide's article that explains it but in the meantime, trust me, the overwhelming majority (that I know of) of tuners, use straight wound springs for the shock. I'll leave the technical details up to the experts...

[ra2bach]

admittedly not on our bikes but maybe yo u can begin to see around the corner on this issue.

http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/sho...?threadid=6694

here's an excerpt that I think makes sense with our bikes that have been criticized for excessive dive under braking.:

"...When we compare the linear versus the progressive, it becomes clear that the higher initial spring rate of the linear spring will allow the suspension tuner to set sag higher in the suspension stroke than with the progressive spring. That is, when we preload all of the springs to achieve the same end-of-stroke spring rate, we end up with less sag with the linear spring than we do with the progressive spring. Thus, for a given full-stroke spring constant, we have a higher static ride height, and thus greater ground clearance during "normal" operation. By normal, I mean straight, flat running and smooth cornering. In a "G-out" situation, however, the linear spring has less bottoming resistance than the progressive spring...."

[ian-parkes]

Ra Iam sure the figures you quote there are correct for a race or sport bike that is set up for one rider

However the capo must be compared more with an enduro bike . It has much longer travel suspension and is softer sprung . It is also made to take greatly varying loads.

I can't remember the sag settings for my enduro bike but thet are way different and greater than a road bike .

I think this is one reason the capo works well with the rising rate spring . the higher the load the higher the spring rate . Also the fact that the rear spring is longer makes a great difference . The Capo like nearly every other trailie drags its ass , partly I believe because the manufacturer's try to get a lower ride height to appeal to a greater number of potential customers.

I used to run pre load with the old springs near to max one up and loaded . It felt quite firm untill you hit a good hollow and it would just bottom out.

I feel if you require something better then the best route is to replace the complete shock as well as a matched spring.

[olie]

From the press:
"ETV1000 Caponord has received a new black paint, new bottom instrument panel, redesigned silencer, new anodised aluminium guards to reduce weight, ABS brakes with Bosch ABS 5M control unit designed with Brembo, new improved 50mm Marzocchi fork with variable action spring. The ABS brakes can be manually disabled just by pushing a button on the instrument panel."

After Wirth/Touratec, Hyperpro and WP, I guess Aprilia is with the progressive springs program finally. (linear action vs variable action).

[ra2bach]

Olie, does that "variable action" mean a variable "rate" spring, or does that indicate a preload adjustment? anyone know?

and btw, as I mentioned in my last statement on the subject in that other thread, I'm not going back into the variable vs. straight rate spring discussion. anyone is free to believe what they care to. suffice it to say, that based on the "proof" offered by others, I remain firmly unconvinced.

I was only pointing out the fact that a "universal" variable rate spring is, by design, a compromise, and does not make up for using a "correct" weight spring chosen based on the individual's combined rider and gear weight. if anyone chooses to believe it does, when nearing or exceeding the upper end of that load design specification, you WILL have handling and safety issues depending on your load, speed of travel, road conditions, and your ability to deal with them. vaya con Dios...

[olie]

I agree with you. Under ideal conditions, a proper linear spring with a rate designed for your weight, bike loading and riding conditions would be ideal.
Your weight maybe the same, but if you add a pillion and/or luggage, the spring load will change even before your ride your bike. Regarding the riding conditions, that will vary from highway to town, from good pavement to lousy roads, etc.
That's why a good variable (non-linear) rate spring can be the ideal compromise. For me the issue is which one would be the better for my situation? WP? Hyperpro?

I got Hyperpro because was the only one that I knew in the time with available Front and Rear springs. Later I found out that WP (BMW prefered supplier) has a set for the Capo.

Do I like Hyperpro? Yes, although with the lack of good comparisson I believe is too much "street" oriented, especial the Front set, although no more nose diving. Regarding the rear spring, I am happy taking in account I ride a lot 2up with luggage and our combined weight of 400#, for a total of about 440 Lb.

After the warranty expires, if the rear shock goes bad I will replace it with a WP or Hyperpro set.