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Thread: Ditech injection tuning options: PCIIIusb???

  1. #1
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    Ditech injection tuning options: PCIIIusb???

    I have been thinking lately that there may actually be a way to tune the ditech injection system with a Power Commander USB.

    The PCIIIusb only looks at injection pulses and TPS reading...since the Ditech's injection system is propriatery and they will not let the secrets out of how to alter the stock mapping then we could just do like the car world and add a piggy-back box right? The PCIIIusb draws its power from the hot wire going to the injector and looks for something like ground interuptions to the other injection wire to build its mapping database against what signal it process from the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). And then you can change the injection interval from your laptop...seems like it would work to me....and I am a sceptic....

    So as long as the donor PCIIIusb was intended for a bike with a TPS signal in a range similar to the one on the Ditech's TPS we could be in business after a few wiring mods to attach the PC's ground wire and injector adapter...

    Someone please tell me I am crazy and to forget about this! Like I need another project right now!

    I have been reading through some technical articles about the Orbital injection system...Building a stand alone ecu that is tuneable is also possible if first you could determine the timing of the stock injection event, the duration of the event and the tps reading at which the event occured. The timing of the fuel injection event is increadibly important to allow the vaporization of as much of the fuel as possible in the pre-injection chamber. The timing of the air injection even is just really a function of the cam lobe shaped crank wheel and the air injection pump...probably beganning at about 85-95 degrees before top dead center and having about 10 degrees of duration...not sure on this one.

    Basically the vast majority of the air that goes through the Ditech motor is not burned at all but rather heated by a small pocket of rich fuel/air mix provided from the pre-chamber during the primary injection (fuel and air) event. It is for this very reason that I have been able to operate the ditech fairly normally with the throttle body completley removed as long as the TPS was still hooked up. This motor is basically a lot more like a deisel than I had imagined.

    What do you techie types think?
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
    699 W. San Antonio
    New Braunfels, TX 78130
    830-626-3966
    micah@af1racing.com

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert justo316's Avatar
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    I have no idea what you just said.....

    However, I used to know someone who mentioned that a 'friend' of theirs used to work for Orbital here in Perth. I don't know what he actually did, but apparantly he did test the ditech as it was being developed.

    Would it be any benefit trying to get in touch and see if he'll spill their secrets?
    2002 Aprilia SR Ditech (STOLEN)
    Polini 70cc Kit
    LeoVince S Exhaust
    Polini Variator
    Polini Kevlar Belt
    5g Roller Weights
    Malossi Yellow Contra Spring
    Max True Flat Speed: 94.2km/h (7g weights, stock belt)


    2005 Aprilia SR Ditech (SOLD)

    2006 Aprilia RS125

  3. #3
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    If he can get the software and plug in to tune the maps in the stock ditech ecu I will be forever greatful.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
    699 W. San Antonio
    New Braunfels, TX 78130
    830-626-3966
    micah@af1racing.com

  4. #4
    apriliaforum Junkie Kyle Herder's Avatar
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    Quick intro about myself. born and raised around small engines, go karts, dirt bikes and carbs. Now I tuned high end German cars. I love an engine that is able to over rev.

    When I 1st got my ditech it was very slow(45km/h). I knew the software was holding it back. I had it derestricted and was expecting alot more performance. When I got my computer back and drove my bike I thought right away that things were better (quicker top end), but still I thought it was no where near its potential.

    I know with the BMW cars there is so much to gain in software. Different street programs and then there is race programs. Plus there are dozens on different brands of software. I am really supprized no one else offers software other then Aprilia. Propriatery or not. There is always someone to crack it. I think the ignition timing is more of the problem.

    anyone to add to this?
    DiTech 50 SBK 11/03 - Morini -120km/h speedo
    70cc Polini, LeoVince ZX, 6g rollers in Polini vario, Red contra spring, Malossi Fly w green springs, Malossi gears
    cruises @ 108km/h on flat and maxed out down hill at 130km/h.
    14,800km to date

  5. #5
    apriliaforum prov-nov LillePer's Avatar
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    The timing should be fine, i think it's 1,4mm before TDC or 17 degrees(at high revs), and something else i can't remember :P at low revs.

    Offcourse the bike has a variable electronic ignition, like the Eprom box for Piaggio and Mineralli carburated engines if your familiar with that.

    I guess you could reprogram it somehow, but the question is how much performance there really is to gain. I'm not overwhelmed by the throttle response of my DT(stock filter, gonna switch it with a Malossi Red Sponge).

    I guess if you really want performance, you should hook up with a larger injector head and a big bore kit with a sweet ass double exhaust port and highend port timing and a MHR pipe(i never realized why they made it for the Morini - this engine honestly sucks in performance means).

    If the crank casing is the same in the Piaggio purejet and Piaggio carb you could easily fit a highrace kit, and maybe a DT head?

    But after all, you dind't buy your DT for highend tuning and massive performance... and if you did... you made a big mistake :P

    Why they dind't make any new software or a bigger injector head? Is there a market for it? The Malossi and Polini kits just recently came out...

    Sorry for bad english and rubbish :P
    16,7hp Piaggio NRG MC³ LC.

    Almost stock Aprilia SR50 Ditech - derestricted with 2,7 software.

  6. #6
    apriliaforum expert Dragster pilota's Avatar
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    micah in da house:
    What do you techie types think?

    Well I had my friends at TuningChip, big time Porsche, Benz & VAG tuner here in Sweden "take out" the Aprilia Software from the ECU and run it in their simulator/virtual test bench and since it's a verry simple software, not many parameters, it don't even have an air flow mass meeter and that makes it almost impossible to do something interesting with it. We wanted to do an "Aftermarket" software that could be downloaded by someone with a GameBoy and a TuningChip cartridge but after trying a couple of versions of the software and not gaining much we gave up on the project, to much time spent and it would be verry expensive for not much.....

    If someone comes up with something that REALLY works I would love to run it on our "Shop Hack" and test it, I'm game....

    DP says: Aprilia seems to have done the ultimate software....

  7. #7
    apriliaforum expert Dragster pilota's Avatar
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    troutmaster in da house:
    And how abut getting /developing an injector that delivers more fuel

    The stock Aprilia/Orbital injector is basicaly the same as some F2 boat builders use in their 2-stroke 300hp V6 Mercury outboard motors so I guess it's big enough, it's all in the software. And no we did not "pull" the Malossi software out of the ECU and as far as I have heard you are the only one that claims more power with Malossi ECU on a stock DiTech, I have also tested (by accident) the Malossi ECU on our "Shop Hack" and could not figure out why it was so slow, swapped back the Aprilia (early 02) ECU and there was the power again....

    My feeling is that it's not worth developing software for DiTech since it would be hard to get the monney invested back. I have talked to a couple of car tuners (among them Dahlbäck the world famous VAG tuner), race boat builders that use Orbital technology and other computer/software wizards and all of them says, the software is way to simple, to few parameters to play with and the power to $$$$ ratio will be way off and it would be almost impossible to recoup the time and effort invested, that's the feedback I get when talking to friends and those who can do this stuff....

    DP says: I'm game if someone comes up with something that works, said it before....

  8. #8
    I was thinkig about the Ditech system, and I found that we have to give more fuel to the system.
    I'm not sure but my theori is: there is just a fuelpump in the system which provides fuel to the injector system, which is just a valve. The ECU regulates when this valve is open. More fuel is available if we let the valve open for longer time, but more fuel can get in if we increase the pressure. Which can be made withe a bigger fuel pump.
    I posted long time ago my theory here.
    Is this make any sense?
    I want revolution!

    Balazs
    70 ccm Polini
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    Malossi red sponge
    10gr.

  9. #9
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    My theory is that in some places we need less fuel and in more places we need additional fuel...especially if we go crazy with this project and add a larger throttle body...like say one from a GSXR 600 or something.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
    699 W. San Antonio
    New Braunfels, TX 78130
    830-626-3966
    micah@af1racing.com

  10. #10
    Moderator DRT-Tuning's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Micah / AF1 Racing
    My theory is that in some places we need less fuel and in more places we need additional fuel...especially if we go crazy with this project and add a larger throttle body...like say one from a GSXR 600 or something.
    I don't know shit about DiTech / EFI engines, so don't kill me, but:

    Can't the complete ECU be swapped with some off a motor, a GSX-R 600 for example?

    Than you could (maybe) go all the way. Hook a PCM on it etc etc.

    Okay I know the big bikes are all 4-stroke 4-inlines/V-Twins, so maybe that alone makes it impossible.

    Perhaps any 2 stroke bike that has EFI? (and thus a ECU) that could perhaps work?
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