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Thread: 2016 rsv4rr storage in So Cal

  1. #16
    apriliaforum Member Sonny112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcboy View Post
    Also, if you must start the bike occasionally during long storage periods to satisfy your craving ok but otherwise counterproductive and doing more harm than good. If you start it ride it.
    What reasoning did he base this on? What harm did he specify would occur?

  2. #17
    apriliaforum expert cmutza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny112 View Post
    What reasoning did he base this on? What harm did he specify would occur?
    Starting the bike and just letting it idle in the garage won't get it up to full operating temp like riding it would, and doing this can cause condensation to accumulate inside the exhaust and engine. Better to just let it sleep the whole time you're storing it. At least that's the conventional wisdom.

  3. #18
    apriliaforum Member Sonny112's Avatar
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    Clearly, idling it for a long time isn’t a great idea. Add a bit of throttle and build revs slowly , not keeping a constant load, bikes gets to a decent temp after only a few minutes. It’s not good for bearings to rest many months w/o movement, it can lead to false brinelling of the races.

  4. #19
    apriliaforum newb Hrdtyme's Avatar
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    Thanks!
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    Hrdtyme

  5. #20
    apriliaforum expert Turbinepilot2's Avatar
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    Just adding a bit of throttle and running it won’t get it up to temp. They say it takes about 8-10 miles to get the oil up to temperature. Like said above all you’re doing is heating the engine up and then when it cools you have condensation in the motor and oil. Just let it sit. If you’re set on not letting it sit and have oil circulated I would pull the fuel pump circuit breaker and then you can use the starter motor to spin the engine a bit without firing it up.

  6. #21
    apriliaforum Member Sonny112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbinepilot2 View Post
    Just adding a bit of throttle and running it won’t get it up to temp. They say it takes about 8-10 miles to get the oil up to temperature. Like said above all you’re doing is heating the engine up and then when it cools you have condensation in the motor and oil. Just let it sit. If you’re set on not letting it sit and have oil circulated I would pull the fuel pump circuit breaker and then you can use the starter motor to spin the engine a bit without firing it up.
    Yeah, I don't buy that

  7. #22
    apriliaforum expert Turbinepilot2's Avatar
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    It is about the huge quantities of moisture generated when the engine starts. Put on your favorite white pants. Start engine on chokes. Wait one minute. Place right leg in front of tail pipe. Open engine hatch. Rev engine at the throttle crossbar. See that black spray all over your nice white pants? That is combustion created water from the combustion chambers. A complete combustion makes water and carbon dioxide. Water is a fact of life in every combustion device we have. That combustion condensation also works its way past the rings into the crankcase as well. Only when the combustion chamber surfaces and exhaust pipes and inner muffler passages get above 100ºC will that moisture stop dripping out the tail pipe and contaminating the oil. Normally you are unaware of how much water vapor is intrinsic to exhaust because the heat evaporates it. That's why we like a thermostat to heat the engine quickly to drive that water out as vapor.

    Also when your engine gets warm and then cools the air condenses in your motor and water forms. When you’re running your bike for short amounts in your garage you are heating your coolant to temperature but not your oil. Next time you run it like that look at the oil sight glass window and see if you see any condensation or a milky looking film on the glass or in the oil. That’s moisture. Learned all of this from flying airplanes and storing them for long periods during the winter.

  8. #23
    apriliaforum expert yzr750's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbinepilot2 View Post
    It is about the huge quantities of moisture generated when the engine starts. Put on your favorite white pants. Start engine on chokes. Wait one minute. Place right leg in front of tail pipe. Open engine hatch. Rev engine at the throttle crossbar. See that black spray all over your nice white pants? That is combustion created water from the combustion chambers. A complete combustion makes water and carbon dioxide. Water is a fact of life in every combustion device we have. That combustion condensation also works its way past the rings into the crankcase as well. Only when the combustion chamber surfaces and exhaust pipes and inner muffler passages get above 100ºC will that moisture stop dripping out the tail pipe and contaminating the oil. Normally you are unaware of how much water vapor is intrinsic to exhaust because the heat evaporates it. That's why we like a thermostat to heat the engine quickly to drive that water out as vapor.

    Also when your engine gets warm and then cools the air condenses in your motor and water forms. When you’re running your bike for short amounts in your garage you are heating your coolant to temperature but not your oil. Next time you run it like that look at the oil sight glass window and see if you see any condensation or a milky looking film on the glass or in the oil. That’s moisture. Learned all of this from flying airplanes and storing them for long periods during the winter.
    You're not wrong
    seesecurity.com.au

  9. #24
    apriliaforum Member Sonny112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbinepilot2 View Post
    It is about the huge quantities of moisture generated when the engine starts. Put on your favorite white pants. Start engine on chokes. Wait one minute. Place right leg in front of tail pipe. Open engine hatch. Rev engine at the throttle crossbar. See that black spray all over your nice white pants? That is combustion created water from the combustion chambers. A complete combustion makes water and carbon dioxide. Water is a fact of life in every combustion device we have. That combustion condensation also works its way past the rings into the crankcase as well. Only when the combustion chamber surfaces and exhaust pipes and inner muffler passages get above 100ºC will that moisture stop dripping out the tail pipe and contaminating the oil. Normally you are unaware of how much water vapor is intrinsic to exhaust because the heat evaporates it. That's why we like a thermostat to heat the engine quickly to drive that water out as vapor.

    Also when your engine gets warm and then cools the air condenses in your motor and water forms. When you’re running your bike for short amounts in your garage you are heating your coolant to temperature but not your oil. Next time you run it like that look at the oil sight glass window and see if you see any condensation or a milky looking film on the glass or in the oil. That’s moisture. Learned all of this from flying airplanes and storing them for long periods during the winter.
    By your theory, the oil is immediately contaminated upon startup and continues to be until the engine reaches some temperature. If thats the case, the oil is being contaminated as much as any other startup. Oil filters do not filter water, so that water is then never removed.

    How does starting the engine during storage, then, contaminate the oil differently than a normal startup? How would the oil be any worse off during a storage startup vs. a normal startup and run?

    I understand the issues of starting a cold engine, I just don't buy it as a major issue. Vehicles in cold climates do it regularly and last hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm not talking about running the engine for 5 minutes 2-3 times a week, but maybe once every month or two.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKALgXDwou4
    Last edited by Sonny112; 12-03-2017 at 12:28 AM.

  10. #25
    apriliaforum expert yzr750's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny112 View Post
    By your theory, the oil is immediately contaminated upon startup and continues to be until the engine reaches some temperature. If thats the case, the oil is being contaminated as much as any other startup. Oil filters do not filter water, so that water is then never removed.

    How does starting the engine during storage, then, contaminate the oil differently than a normal startup? How would the oil be any worse off during a storage startup vs. a normal startup and run?
    because when the engine and oil get up to operating temperature the water evaporates, idling and revving the motor in the garage with no load will not get the motor up to operating temperature.
    seesecurity.com.au

  11. #26
    apriliaforum Member Sonny112's Avatar
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    Uh, water does not simply evaporate out of oil...

    http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...-contamination

    The water will become emulsified w/ the oil or remain free on the bottom of the sump, unable to evaporate
    Last edited by Sonny112; 12-03-2017 at 12:40 AM.

  12. #27
    apriliaforum expert Turbinepilot2's Avatar
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    2016 rsv4rr storage in So Cal

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny112 View Post
    Uh, water does not simply evaporate out of oil...

    http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...-contamination

    The water will become emulsified w/ the oil or remain free on the bottom of the sump, unable to evaporate
    That is a different discussion than what oil does in an engine.

    You can start your motor as much as you want but if you do some research and look at even what the oil companies recommend and their explanation you will see you’re doing more damage by starting it than just letting it sit.

    Next time you make something hot put it in a ziplock back and seal it or better yet put it outside in the winter to cool while the food is hot and you’ll see that water condensation forms in the ziplock bag. Same principle in an engine. I’m just passing on what I’ve been told by various mechanics and taught through the years and info on the internet. Beauty is that everyone can make their own choice.
    Last edited by Turbinepilot2; 12-03-2017 at 01:07 AM.

  13. #28
    apriliaforum expert Turbinepilot2's Avatar
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    Another good post from the internet.

    I'm going to say what the others have said, but in a slightly different way. "Lets talk about vapour pressure".

    Any fluid, water included, will maintain an equilibrium of liquid and gas in an enclosed and only partially filled space. The pressure of the vapour over the liquid is determined by the temperature of the system, and it's a constant at a constant temperature. If you remove vapour from the system, liquid will evaporate to compensate for the loss until the previous pressure is restored. That's how the PCV system gets water out of your motor oil without boiling it out.

    Of course, when such a closed system is raised to the "boiling point" of the liquid, the liquid absorbs heat and converts to vapour until all the liquid is gone. This is "boiling off" the liquid.

    To clean the water out of your engine oil without boiling, you just have to keep removing the water vapour from the space above the liquid (ie - the enclosed crankcase volume), and the water in the oil will continue to evaporate in an effort to re-establish it's equilibrium vapour pressure.

    If your oil is at 200 degrees (F), the vapour pressure of water is relatively high, and your PCV system will draw the vapour out of the engine very efficiently until all that's left is a tiny amount of water vapour inside the crancase. That moisture will condense into the oil as the engine cools, but it will be a negligible amount.

    There are two reasons you get creamy oil when running a cold engine:

    1 - more water vapour condenses inside the cylinders in the first place (instead of being expelled) because the mass of the engine itself is cold. This means there is more input of water to the oil.

    2 - the whole system is cool, so the vapour pressure of the water in the crankcase is quite low, so the PCV system can't extract it. The water's happy being a liquid and riding around in the oil, and until it feels the call of warmer temperatures, it has no inclination to try to support a higher vapour pressure.

  14. #29
    apriliaforum Member Sonny112's Avatar
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    It would seem you're correct:

    http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...g-water-in-oil

    I didn't think this was true. I've had high temperature turbine generators' oil systems become contaminated before and needed to centrifugally separate the water from the system;I didn't remember what the oil temp was though.

    I'm still leery to leave any critical rolling element bearings sit for months and months.

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