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Thread: 900cc VS 750cc on dyno

  1. #16
    apriliaforum Junkie spank36's Avatar
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    The 1200 is still a monster!
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micah / AF1 Racing View Post
    Just an FYI, every motor sold before ever being installed into a car, boat, airplane, motorcycle or scooter has been run to full power on a motor dyno to make sure it is fundamentally "good". My basic break rules are only this, ride it like you are going to ride it, vary rpms and MAKE DAMN SURE IT IS FULLY UP TO OPERATIONAL TEMP BEFORE BEATING ON IT. That last part is REALLY important no matter whether a motor is old or new. The only parts really "breaking in" on modern engines are the piston rings and since they are pushed out towards the cylinder walls by combustion pressure, getting on a motor is good for it during break in, at least up to peak torque rpm. I have never had a properly built "new" or "rebuild" motor fail on the dyno and many people get machines modified and tuned before even taking delivery.
    The clutch and trans is being broke in as well.

    You're the second person I've heard claiming every single engine sold is put on a dyno before installed on a car/motorcycle. I wonder if this is true.
    Don't be a jerk... jerk

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  3. #18
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    It's true but my voice doesn't make a third person lol. I spent some time at HD engine facility in the frozen Tundra of the north, even HD does full dyno checkout of motor/trans package prior to installation. It is infinitely easier to fix a problem before a machine is delivered than after it is in a dealer or owner's hands. I have torn down a lot of "new" motors over the years as well for performance builds, I have seen exactly zero perfectly clean internals when it comes to pistons, chambers, exhaust ports and valves. A gearbox in the sense of loaded running vs lightly loaded running does not really need a break-in of the traditional sort. Either hard facing on gears is right, shims are correctly placed and sized, or they are not, much like the rotating assembly of a motor if clearances are correct there is precious little to no metal to metal contact, a thin film of oil prevents this. The clutch plates will never be flatter and the springs stiffer than the day they were installed.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

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  4. #19
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    Why can't they give the Dorso a diet? I'd love to have my Super Pole Tuono and a Dorso on the trailer headed to the mountains this spring. I just can't justify spending that money and not getting a 690 SMC instead.

  5. #20
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    SilverBandit, you are asking a question that has vexxed me since at least 2009 to be honest. I have no easy nor awesome answer.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micah / AF1 Racing View Post
    It's true but my voice doesn't make a third person lol. I spent some time at HD engine facility in the frozen Tundra of the north, even HD does full dyno checkout of motor/trans package prior to installation. It is infinitely easier to fix a problem before a machine is delivered than after it is in a dealer or owner's hands. I have torn down a lot of "new" motors over the years as well for performance builds, I have seen exactly zero perfectly clean internals when it comes to pistons, chambers, exhaust ports and valves. A gearbox in the sense of loaded running vs lightly loaded running does not really need a break-in of the traditional sort. Either hard facing on gears is right, shims are correctly placed and sized, or they are not, much like the rotating assembly of a motor if clearances are correct there is precious little to no metal to metal contact, a thin film of oil prevents this. The clutch plates will never be flatter and the springs stiffer than the day they were installed.
    Meh. I'd still argue there is a break-in period. thus is why the oil is changed early and there's usually excess metal flaking from the engine internals.

    Now how you flog or not flog the motor in that break-in period is the question. May be better to flog it to seat the rings quicker but that may be bad for the trans in the long run. Problem is... need a lot of consistent data taken to really understand this and its probably also manufacturer or even model specific (or even can trail down to supplier shipments). and the long term effects can be so long-term that engine longevity becomes more rider specific than engine specific.

    I guess we're hijacking the thread now... haha
    Don't be a jerk... jerk

    2016 KTM 250 xc
    2013 KTM 350 xcf ---------------SOLD
    2011 Husqvarna 630 ------------SOLD
    2007 KTM Superduke 990-------SOLD
    2009 Dorsoduro 750
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    2009 YZ450 -----------------------SOLD
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  7. #22
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    All good, one of those age old questions and threads as long as forums have existed. I have been doing motor work for 25 years now and have my opinions and such, but that is all they are, my opinions and experience. I do break in 2 stroke motors a little differently than 4 stroke motors and turbo/boosted different than naturally aspirated. Break in a subject like "which oil is best"...so much bandwidth has been consumed for so little practical learning lol.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBandit View Post
    Why can't they give the Dorso a diet? I'd love to have my Super Pole Tuono and a Dorso on the trailer headed to the mountains this spring. I just can't justify spending that money and not getting a 690 SMC instead.
    Aprilia is a rather small manufacturer and r&d, plus manufacturing new parts would be a huge deal for them, which they probably can't afford since ...well... aprilia isn't yamaha or honda, nor are they Ducati.
    That's probably the reasons why the new dorso is cheaper than the old one, they use the same cheap parts, since Aprilia is trying to make a profit and stay competitive.
    Investing in r&d and manufacturing to actually revamp the bike would probably be quite the risk.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kourkou View Post
    Aprilia is a rather small manufacturer and r&d, plus manufacturing new parts would be a huge deal for them, which they probably can't afford since ...well... aprilia isn't yamaha or honda, nor are they Ducati.
    That's probably the reasons why the new dorso is cheaper than the old one, they use the same cheap parts, since Aprilia is trying to make a profit and stay competitive.
    Investing in r&d and manufacturing to actually revamp the bike would probably be quite the risk.
    Basically this. Except Aprilia are owned by Piaggio, who have enough money. But Piaggio use Aprilia's R&D facilities for the whole group now, since they were so impressed with it (allegedly) when they subsumed them.

    The parts commonality is huge on the 750s and 900s, down to the cylinder heads, valves, springs and cams, and the torque curve's shape and peak reflect this. I personally think the cheapness is really to allow them to sell the 900s in Asia (where some countries then add a huge import levy anyway), but it also allows them to have a "beginner" and soft "middleweight" bike, depending on the engine map, in other markets. Otherwise it would just look lazy.

    I'm hoping the 1200 isn't dead; an updated 1200 motor aimed at the "Western" market in even an untouched chassis (Dorso or Shiver), plus the new electronics and dash would be great. There's still a gap between their 125s and the 900s, and from the 900s to the V4s.

    It's such a shame Aprilia's non-flagship bikes don't sell as well as they should!

  10. #25
    apriliaforum expert rule62's Avatar
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    ... cylinder heads, valves, springs and cams
    So... is it confirmed the cams are identical ?
    2014 DD 750 ABS - Spark exhaust, Arrow decat, headers (all ceramic coated), BMC filter, FatDuc, BikeMaster DLFP16-BS LiFePO battery, GPR steering damper, DD 1200 fully adjustable rear shock w/spring swap, 2016 Tuono Factory wheels, 15/44 520 conversion (PBR/Superlite/DID), Strada-7 fork preload adjusters, Samco 2-piece hose kit w/clamps, Engine Ice, Renazco Racing seat, EvoTech tidy tail, Aprilia grab handles, shorty levers, crank-case breather mod, evap-can delete... and a Rapid Bike EVO on order...

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndelibleInk View Post
    Basically this. Except Aprilia are owned by Piaggio, who have enough money. But Piaggio use Aprilia's R&D facilities for the whole group now, since they were so impressed with it (allegedly) when they subsumed them.

    The parts commonality is huge on the 750s and 900s, down to the cylinder heads, valves, springs and cams, and the torque curve's shape and peak reflect this. I personally think the cheapness is really to allow them to sell the 900s in Asia (where some countries then add a huge import levy anyway), but it also allows them to have a "beginner" and soft "middleweight" bike, depending on the engine map, in other markets. Otherwise it would just look lazy.
    My theory is on the same track but, imo, Aprilia HAD to stay in the middle category market. Tuono is a beast and a flagship, but its target group is limited, so it's not like the entire company would base their profits on it... far from it...
    They couldn't keep the 750 in the market either, because apart from not being a popular bike since it's release, it was quite outdated which limits its value in the market as a whole, even less.
    So they would probably need to either drop the 750 thus dropping out of the game in general, or they had to stay in the game but with a minimal investment. Hence the 750 became 900. They made minor changes (the bike is basically a frankenstein of aprilia parts, and peripherals are rather cheap (suspensions for example)) to keep the cost low and stay in the game.
    Imo it's a honest move, and i believe the bike is amazing for what it's offering on that price.
    But it shows that Aprilia are struggling as they always were.
    Revamping the bike would be a huge risk and they would still lose because the dorsoduro is part of a pretty tiny category and if they chose to step it up, they would have to compete with the well established line of Hypermotards, or even the MV Rivale... they would flunk if they made the dorso a top model, and damages would be pretty big... that's why they chose to keep it middle-low, to stay competitive but in a different category.

    On topic:
    The dyno showed 75hp?... and if I remember correctly the shiver on your dyno Micah had shown around 68?
    Last edited by kourkou; 11-11-2017 at 04:51 PM.

  12. #27
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    Inlet valves identical (846923), camshafts do not carry same part number, exhaust valves are same (873459), inlet springs and exhaust valve springs (inner and outer) are same. My guess is that the 750cc cams are slightly longer in duration but I have no way to say definitively lacking a pile of parts to measure. The cams cannot offer more than an additional .5mm in lift or the spring part numbers would have to be different. The new 900 camshaft parts number MAY end up being what the older 750cc camshafts supercede to, not as of today but would not shock me.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

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  13. #28
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    Going by the PDFs available thanks to AF1Racing, for the front cylinder:

    Intake cam is 82977R in the 900 and 873960 in the 750 - 873960 is replaced by 82977R according to one online source, but is unavailable to buy (LINK) - curiously the rear can be (LINK)

    Exhaust cam is 1A008512 in the 900 (decompressor fitted) and 873961 in the 750, again superceded, but to 82978R (no decompressor on the 750).


    I'd be surprised if there is any real change to the cylinder head casting itself (combustion chamber, ports), even though it is a new part number.

    More info is dripping out about the 900's changes, such as a semi-dry sump, new pistons with low-friction coated skirts (probably also the main cause of the reduced compression ratio back to 11:1) plus lighter piston pins and new injectors and higher-pressure fuel delivery allowing for better fuel atomisation. There is supposedly a lighter feeling clutch, implying hydraulic changes that might interest 750 owners, plus changes to the clutch and primary drive ratio itself. Some of that might come in handy? The reduced skirt friction and crank / oil windage might be helping the 900 in this comparison, especially up top.


    I had the chance to see the engine / bike up close last year and the exhaust is broadly the same as the 750's in terms of pipe diameters and lengths - the front pipe is still considerably longer than the rear, then. Obviously there are now two lambda probes much closer to the heads instead of one just before the cat.

    Interestingly, the air filter, lid and snorkel are the same part numbers, and the airbox otherwise looks very much the same, using the same rubber boots to join to the heads. The common air filter and boots imply the intake runners are the same tapered affair (and the same port size in the head), and the throttles are probably still the huge 52 mm items.

  14. #29
    apriliaforum expert Gabro's Avatar
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    by 1'15" of this video you can see how they do test the whole bike at the end of the assembly line:

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