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Thread: PatEF; the "Ef" for efficiency

  1. #16
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    Reliability would have to be proven in real world application to establish MTBF and allow a full FMA to be completed. Be mindful that the valve spring you mentioned for comparison is fully captive with a valve stem going through the middle of it locked in place by the keeper with cup at one end and valve seat tower on the other so the comparison is not really a valid one. Until then its just an interesting theory.

  2. #17
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    Hello all.


    For "an interesting theory" (last words, last post) like the PatEf:



    comments like:

    "What a nightmare that would be to service though if the springs tended to come off their pivots while riding.
    One could end up with a fussy system that would make the bike it was installed in highly unreliable due to the complexity of the springs and balls."

    should be better justified.



    For instance think if, after the assembly, it is possible to come off their pivots / supports the spings in a PatEf arrangement like:




    The springs are sliced to show the shape of the inner parts.

    Here in slow motion:





    The PatEf is not about "springs and balls".

    The PatEf is about the substantial reduction (with quite simple / cheap means) of the friction and of the power loss and of the V-belt wear inevitably happening now into the CVT's of your scooters.



    Has anybody of you calculated the efficiency (i.e. the ratio of the "output power" to the "input power") of his scooter CVT at highway cruising?

    For the "top" (technologically) scooter CVT (the SECVT of the Suzuki Burgman 650) this efficiency is only 85%.

    Theoretically, with the PatEf in the rear pulley of the Burgman 650, the mileage at highway cruising increases by 10% (saving 10% of the fuel cost), while the durability of the V-belt doubles.



    By the way, according Aprilia, the engine of the Aprilia Mana 850 (which is a "hybrid" between motorcycles and scooters and which uses a version of the SECVT of Suzuki) makes 76hp.



    The Sukuzi Electronically controlled CVT of the Aprilia Mana 850 can operate either completely automatic (scooter like) or as a serial 7-ratios gearbox (motorcycle like).


    Quote from http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2009/02/a ... 50-review/ :

    "The liquid-cooled 839cc Twin may not be the earth-trembling torque monster of its Italian brethren, but sticking the Mana in fourth ‘gear’ it spun the Mickey Cohen Motorsports dyno up to 54 hp and 39 lb-ft torque.:



    End of Quote


    If Aprilia is correct for the 76hp their engine can make, and if the above dyno is correct, too, then 22hp (i.e. the 22/76=29% of the peak power) are lost as friction in the power train (engine to CVT to final transmission to tire to road).

    Burning to friction 22hp is not simple, at all.
    Just think of the cooling / ventilation required in the CVT compartment to avoid overheating.

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos
    Last edited by manolis8; 09-26-2017 at 12:02 PM.

  3. #18
    apriliaforum expert WadeS02's Avatar
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    That's worse than a SV650.
    I don't care about my apathy.

  4. #19
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    Like I said now you need take this from a vaporous concept and build the physical device to test out the theory. It could, it should and what the math indicates are nice but its putting the physical model through the rigors of bench and then field testing that are going to tell if the promise of the concept will actually be delivered 100% or just partially.

    I look forward to when you have one made up to test in a 250cc Piaggio powered bike.

  5. #20
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    Hello all.

    In a technical discussion like this, the challenge is not to:

    “build the physical device to test out the theory.”

    The challenge for the members of the forum is to read, understand and present justified objections.


    The only objection, so far, is the safe support of the springs of the PatEf.

    The following animation makes even clearer that the springs can no disassemble during operation:





    If I were the owner and/or the user of a scooter,
    after the presentation of the PatEf,
    I could not help thinking, during highway cruising, that:

    for every ten dollars I spent now for fuel, the one dollar is lost for fuel that is burnt to overheat the CVT compartment and to wear the V-belt,

    for every 90 miles I cover now with a specific quantity of fuel, I could cover ten more miles if my CVT was not so inefficient at light-loads and longer-transmission-ratios,

    for every ten stops in gas stations I would avoid the one,

    for every three V-belt replacements, I could avoid the two,

    etc.

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  6. #21
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    The proof of concept working model and real world trial are now needed. Send me one with a guarantee that you will pay full replacement cost of the bike and any medical costs if the device flies apart and destroys the engine case and I'd be willing to try it out.

    Hopefully your not just one of those who try to tie up concepts in patent litigation's in an attempt to collect royalties from those actually willing to bring a concept to a physical model and manufacture it.

  7. #22
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    Hello all.


    Ιn a bicycle:


    the front sprocket is replaced by the conical pulley 2,
    the rear sprocket is replaced by the conical pulley 4,
    the chain is replaced by a constant-length V-belt 5,
    the pedals are secured on the shaft 1,
    the rear wheel is secured on the shaft 3 :





    With the V-belt having a constant length of 1500mm,
    and a 500mm centre-to-centre distance between the two shafts 1 and 3,


    the following plot shows the transmission ratio and the pairs of diameters the V-belt runs on the two pulleys:




    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  8. #23
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    Build it and make it available for U(ser)A(cceptance)T(esting). Modeling is nice but that only reduces the repetition in the Alpha and Beta test cycles however it does not eliminate the need for physically building the device and testing it.

    If your really serious about this then do it.

  9. #24
    apriliaforum expert photoRotor's Avatar
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    ^ You're wasting your time Rocky.
    JD

    '01 Futura

  10. #25
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    JD - Its a sincere request. If Manolis is serious and not just trying to tie up concepts in order to strike it rich with an intellectual property suite over an idea then he will take me up on the offer.

    Note however that there are others that have concepts for a better CVT some of which replace the v-belt with a timing belt and others that are planetary gear based eliminating the belting all together. A number have already had their concepts physically modeled and in alpha testing using 3-D printers.

  11. #26
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    Hello all.


    PhotoRotor
    wrote:
    “You're wasting your time Rocky.”


    The PatEf is about saving time:

    More than 10% of the time now spent in the gas stations.

    More than 50% of the time now spent for the V-belt replacements in the service.


    Together with the time saving it comes a significant running-cost and maintenance-cost saving, too.


    As for the time wasted by “Rocky” to cut and paste his “Passe-partout advice", it is seconds, not minutes.




    Rockynv
    wrote:
    “Note however that there are others that have concepts for a better CVT some of which replace the v-belt with a timing belt and others that are planetary gear based eliminating the belting all together. A number have already had their concepts physically modeled and in alpha testing using 3-D printers.”


    Any patents, or patent applications, or drawings, or links, or photos?


    By the way, the PatEf is not about a new kind of CVT.
    The PatEf is about improving the V-belt scooter CVT's which suffer from low efficiency and excessive wear of the V-belt.

    And unless I am wrong, there is no other type of scooter CVT in production, excluding the hydraulic DN-01 of Honda:





    which was phased out a few years ago.

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  12. #27
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    If your serious about this then build one for a common scooter such as any of the Piaggio 250cc models out there and lets do some UAT. Don't dance around committing and just do it.

  13. #28
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    Hello all.

    Rockyv wrote:
    “If your serious about this then build one. . .”


    Thank you for the “general-purpose” advice, but this is not what I asked.


    What I am looking for, is a “second opinion” about theoretical or design flaws of the PatEf:



    before the manufacturing of the first prototype.


    And as it has been shown / explained:



    your existing mass-production scooters (and sleds) have a serious design flaw in their CVT’s; this design flaw causes, among others, the substantial decrease of the mileage (and of the V-belt durability) at highway cruising.

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

  14. #29
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    Are you going to share the profits with all the co-developers on this board or release this to the public domain then as a "Non-Profit" Public endeavor?

    What will you be paying out to your digital partners in this if your doing this as a "For-Profit" endeavor?

  15. #30
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    Hello all.

    Rockynv wrote:
    “Are you going to share the profits with all the co-developers on this board or release this to the public domain then as a "Non-Profit" Public endeavor?
    What will you be paying out to your digital partners in this if your doing this as a "For-Profit" endeavor?”



    Things are way simpler and have nothing to do with the “good will” to share profits.


    A patent for the PatEf has already been filed.

    Here are the fees paid so far:



    In a few months the UK_IPO will respond with the list of the most relevant patents and documents find during their Search.

    Then, the applicants will decide to proceed with the substantive examination, too (the additional cost of 80 UK pounds makes the total cost for taking the UK patent: 230 UK pounds, or US300$), or to withdraw the patent.


    In a similar way:

    Anybody who has an improvement of the PatEf in mind, can apply for a patent (as shown, the cost is not high), so he can be sure that nobody can take for free his “intellectual property”.

    Then he can participate safely in this discussion.

    If ever his invention / “idea” / “improvement” is used in the PatEf (or elsewhere), he can demand licensing fees, because with the patent granted to him: “all the others are excluded from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention”.



    Quote from https://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/.../ucm447307.pdf (US-PTO):

    “Patents.
    A patent is a property right issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) to an inventor “to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the United States or importing the invention into the United States” for a limited time, in exchange for public disclosure of the invention when the patent is granted. Generally, the term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States. A company may apply for a patent from the USPTO anywhere along the development lifeline of a drug and can encompass a wide range of claims. However, many other factors can affect the duration of a patent”

    End of Quote.



    So, if this is what stops somebody from providing the design flaws of the PatEf, he can apply for a patent first, and then he can come to discuss about his “solutions” / “proposals” here.

    Thanks
    Manolis Pattakos

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