Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: ECU tuning, Looking for information

  1. #1
    apriliaforum newb
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Uelversheim, Germany
    Posts
    8

    ECU tuning, Looking for information

    Good morning everybody.

    I am new to the Aprilia community, just having a purchased a Mana 850 GT ABS some days ago, mainly for use by my lady and daughters. I own 19 bikes, 12 of which are registered and driven regularly. Most of them are Guzzis, both FI and carburetted, but other brands are also there. Yamaha MT01 and GTS1000, Honda VF1000, VF1000R and Goldwing, Suzuki SV650 and 750SRAD and a BMW R90S.

    During the last years I have been involving myself in the exploration of the 15M/15RC ECU used in Moto Guzzis and Ducatis. Two of my bikes, a V11 and a Jackal, are equipped with data logging equipment from Zeitronix and Innovate and I log AFR for both cylinders, TPS, rpm, engine temp, battery voltage and MAP. The resulting data is used to optimize the respective tables and scalars in the ECU BIN. I also analyze the program code and enhanced the respective XDF files for the 15M and 15RC. Mods of the BIN include corrected trim tables for barometric pressure, engine and air temperature, acceleration table, warm-up table and of course the fuel tables. All of the results are shared in the worldwide Guzzi community, quite a few riders are using my BINs on V11 and Californias.

    My most valuable tools include the software suite GuzziDiag written by a German enthusiast, Beard, who's living not far from my home. I already downloaded the BIN and the EEPROM from my Mana and connected GuzziDiag to the ECU.

    I have no experience with the 5AM and am looking for information about the program code. Has anybody dissassembled the 5AM BIN (not neccessarily the onw from the MANA, the program code for others is likely to be helpful as well) and is willing to share the it? Can anybody share the BINs of the Mana? Mine has 2253GX84, Tester: 39777, Date: 2010.28.04. I assume newer versions were released by Aprilia.

    Thanks and cheers
    Meinolf

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,363
    Sorry Meinhoff, I just got your msg on WG. W5AM is fully accessible with Tunerpro. I'll PM you later or flick me your email address. I'm less likely to forget an email than a PM.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  3. #3
    apriliaforum newb
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Uelversheim, Germany
    Posts
    8
    Hi Pete,

    my email address is v11driver (at) gmail.com

    Cheers
    Meinolf

  4. #4
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,363
    Sorry Meinhoff, just emailed you. I've been tied up with travel and then Jude had to go into hospital for emergency surgery. All good now.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  5. #5
    apriliaforum newb
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Uelversheim, Germany
    Posts
    8
    Hi,

    after studying the schematics I decided to built a ECU simulator for the 5AM, similar to the one for the 15M&RC. An used ECU and almost complete wiring loom came my way, the peripheral parts will be taken from my stock of diverse parts.

    5AM_ECU_Sim_MKI.pdf

    This morning I connected to IAWDIAG and could read&write the BIN and EEPROM contents. Next the sensors - using potentiometers - and lambda probe simulators will be added. As the testbed can also be used to simulate Guzzis and Ducatis, two lambda probe simulators will be on the board.

    Once all is tested, explorations into the BIN and identification of tables and scalars can begin. I did look into the dissassembled code of the 5AM already, but it is much more complex than the assembler code of the 15M/RC, being compiled with high-level compilers.

    While not neccessary for the ECU function analysis, adding the TCU and the Display unit, which have their own intelligence, would be a nice touch. If anybody should know of a used TCU and display (a damaged one is ok, only the electronics are required) in Europe, kindly bring it to my attention.

    I'll keep posting news about the ongoing development and eventual results.

    Cheers
    Meinolf

  6. #6
    apriliaforum prov-nov Gdaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    41
    Can't help with your request Meinhoff, but, yes please keep posting your experiences with the ECU. All the best with it.
    Mana NA 850 2008. Gen 1 Tuono forks, Gen 1 Tuono Brembo front discs and calipers, Knight design lowered footpegs, KTM hand guards and a factory screen in winter

  7. #7
    apriliaforum newb
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Uelversheim, Germany
    Posts
    8
    Hi,

    as it turns out, and I should have thought about it earlier, the immobilizer function prevents the virtual engine from running. Either a dashboard and ignition key need to be added or the immobilizer is disabled. Which doesn't seem to be easily done. Any tips? I do have the dissassembled code of the ECU, but this is several generations more advanced and complex than the 15M/15RC assembler code and not easily analyzed by an amateur.

    In the meantime the BIN from a Moto Guzzi Bellagio, which is the only 5AM Guzzi which doesn't have an immobilizer, was loaded to keep checking the progressing built.

    Cheers
    Meinolf

  8. #8
    apriliaforum newb
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Uelversheim, Germany
    Posts
    8
    Hi,

    I'm making progress, though not rapidly.

    It's still a cable jungle, but TPS and engine and intake air adjustment via potis work well. Also reduced is the number of errors by adding load resistors to the coil connection. The dashboard is from a Guzzi 1200 Sport, which a local supporter donated. Alas, it's defective, so the purpose of reducing the number of CAN Bus errors caused by a dashboard not connected is not achieved.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Kabelverhau_kl.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	124.7 KB 
ID:	346326


    A narrowband O2 simulator with load resistor connected to the heating circuit. Basically works, but only for a limited time. I'm assuming that the ECU code detects that the input is a constant, not slighty fluctuating, voltage and and sets an ECU error message after a number of engine revolutions. Will be replaced with a function generator to test this hypothesis.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sprungsonde_kl.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	91.3 KB 
ID:	346328


    Some of the test equipment used to verify values shown by GuzziDiag/IAWDiag. Already caught an error, Beard and I are working on correcting it. During the built I'm using a Nano DSO, for the time being it's sufficient to show correct connections and trends. Once the test board is complete, including break-outs for the signal lines, a 4ch DSO will be used for more accurate measurements.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Messausrüstung_kl.jpg 
Views:	8 
Size:	78.5 KB 
ID:	346327

    The missing Mana dashboard (I'm still looking for a used dashboard and TCU, btw) prevents the virtual engine from being started. For the time being a Guzzi Bellagio BIN, which uses the 5AM but doesn't have the immobilizer, and a Guzzi 1200 Sport BIN, which does have the immobilizer function but nevertheless allows the virtual engine to be run, are being used. A number of findings could already be made and Beard is updating the 5AM EEPROM XDF and 5AM EEPROM Reader/Writer accordingly.

    Next steps include adding fitting load resistors to injector plugs, verifying the lambda function with a function generator, adding switches, potis and LEDS for sidestand, clutch, brakes, oil pressure, 2 lambda simulators, etc, and break-out boards for the ECU, dashboard and TCU connectors, as the Guzzi dashboards have slightly different pin-outs compared to Mana and the ECU pin-out also varies a bit. I'm also trying to find a way to connect a pressure sensor directly to the ECU and vary barometric pressure via poti. My experience from the 15M/15RC BINs is that the barometric and air temperature correction tables are useless, a verification for the 5AM BINs seems appropriate.

    Cheers
    Meinolf
    Last edited by Meinolf; 11-15-2017 at 04:07 AM.

  9. #9
    apriliaforum prov-nov Gdaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    41
    I wish I knew what you were talking about Meinhoff. It all sounds very complicated. Excuse my ignorance but would it not be easier to do what you are doing with a donor Mana complete bike to plug into? I remain intrigued though and really do hope you find another 50hp we can all liberate the Mana with. Keep up the great work.
    Mana NA 850 2008. Gen 1 Tuono forks, Gen 1 Tuono Brembo front discs and calipers, Knight design lowered footpegs, KTM hand guards and a factory screen in winter

  10. #10
    apriliaforum newb
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Uelversheim, Germany
    Posts
    8
    Hi,

    "...but would it not be easier to do what you are doing with a donor Mana complete bike to plug into..."

    no, it wouldn't be easier and given the target of identifying tables, scalars and interdepencies of the ECU program code it wouldn't be possible. When the engine is running a multitude of parameters keep changing constantly. The engine temperature increases, which will be compensated by a trim table with correction factors. The barometric pressure varies from day to day or with altitude, and again a trim table with correction factors takes effect. The speed of opening or closing the throttle activates an acceleration table. And so on.

    The simulator is the only way to keep all parameters but one constant and observe the effects on injection time or ignition values and other output signals. And the ability to induce specific errors and correct them helps in identifying the error codes stored in the Flash memory of the ECU, and possibly the dashboard as well.

    Replacing all the actors (TPS, engine temp, intake and ambient air temp, baro pressure, speed sensors, engine revolution sensor, battery voltage, etc) which feed information to the ECU with potis, signal generator input and partly simple switches provides the controlled environment neccessary to determine cause and effect.

    If I were capable of "...look into the dissassembled code of the 5AM already, but it is much more complex than the assembler code of the 15M/RC, being compiled with high-level compilers...." of understanding the program code, a ECU simulator wouldn't be required. Alas, my skills at understanding assembler code are even less than my electronic skills. I'm still delving into the code, because measurements with the simulator only lead so far, but it's a long and winding road.

    My initial targets years ago with the V11 and Jackal were not to find additional power. But to reduce fuel consumption, fit the maps and scalars to the specific bikes and identify and correct errors in the original BIN. In the meantime it's become a hobby as well. The 15M/RC contained faulty trim tables galore, the AFR of the cylinders varied wildly, the AFRs were not matched to the VE characteristics of the engines, and so on.

    The bikes now run smoother, respond better, consume less and probably gained some torque along the way. And, I had fun.

    Does that answer your question?

    Cheers
    Meinolf

  11. #11
    apriliaforum Junkie AndyT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Chelmsford, Essex, UK
    Posts
    443
    That lot looks like a minefield to negotiate. You are deep into the mysteries of bike electronics that I have never been able to figure out. I can just about manage to troubleshoot the basics with a multimeter, but your set up is way beyond that.

    Now if you can figure out a way to do belt retraining after replacement that would be a huge bonus.
    2009 Mana GT ABS; Andreani fork cartridges with uprated springs; Dorsoduro hand guards and heated grips; 30mm handlebar risers; Digital tachograph: Modified woodcraft folding brake pedal; R&G frame sliders

  12. #12
    apriliaforum newb
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Uelversheim, Germany
    Posts
    8
    Hi,

    the cable jungle is clearing slowly. Some changes to the layout to reserve room for the dashboard and a patchfield to accommodate the different pin-outs of the Aprilia and Guzzi models.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20171116_small.jpg 
Views:	10 
Size:	147.7 KB 
ID:	346479

    The cockpit also moved. Potis will substitute TPS, engine/intake air and ambient air temperature sensors and the baro pressure sensure. Switches will substite clutch, brake, sidestand, oil pressure, fall sensor and gear. Plus a number of LEDs to indicate the respective settings, including the fuel pump.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20171116_small1.jpg 
Views:	10 
Size:	132.4 KB 
ID:	346480

    The plan to substitute the narrow band sensor with a battery regulated between 0.1-1.1V is abandoned. It turns out the ECU will recognize a steady DC voltage coming from the narrow band sensor as faulty and set an error after a number of engine revolutions. A test with a signal generator providing a fluctuating input worked well, so this or a to be built unstable multivibrator will be used instead.

    Cheers
    Meinolf

  13. #13
    apriliaforum newb
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Uelversheim, Germany
    Posts
    8
    Hi,

    the 5AM simulator is up and running, including dashboard. All actuators and sensors, including ambient air and fuel level, are connected and simulated with potis. Only speed and baro are missing, I haven't yet figured out how to drive the speed indicator with a signal generator.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	small.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	138.0 KB 
ID:	347351

    I also came across the excellent research done by techrat1 http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...r-repair/page4 . This initiated the idea to program the dashboard EEPROM with an Arduino and write/read the content without any desoldering.

    Alas, assumedly due to a not connected TCU the virtual engine will not start with a Mana BIN loaded. This seems to be a cut-out condition. So, the search for a TCU continues.

    Cheers
    Meinolf

Similar Threads

  1. Siemens ECU-Flashing: looking for a guinea-pig
    By Gabro in forum Tuono 1000 R and Tuono Factory (2006-2010)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-16-2012, 02:12 AM
  2. ECU tuning for DD & Shiver
    By Bammbamm in forum 2008-2016 Shiver 750 / Dorsoduro 750
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-17-2010, 02:09 PM
  3. Looking for PCIII Tune to '03 Tuono
    By Tuck'd in forum Aprilia News and Product Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-27-2006, 11:19 PM
  4. Looking for Atlanta PCIII Tune to '03 Tuono
    By Tuck'd in forum RSV1000 Mille, Mille R, and Mille SP (1998-2003)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-27-2006, 06:43 PM
  5. Looking for Atlanta PCIII Tune to '03 Tuono
    By Tuck'd in forum RSV Tuono, Tuono R, Tuono Racing, and Tuono Factory (2002-2005)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-27-2006, 12:47 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •