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Thread: V7III series bikes just arrived

  1. #1
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    V7III series bikes just arrived

    So the V7III series bikes have been arriving this week, they are NICE and the heads are finally of logical modern design, not the rather "dated" or "agricultural" Heron design that has been around for a long, long time. I am looking very forward to testing out the demo and putting some miles on it, Guzzi claims basically the same power output but they did also for the V7II Stornello and everyone who rides a Stornello back to back with a regular V7II agrees it is much quicker and the only real change I see is a pipe?

    If I can get my iMac running again in the near term I will be adding some pics to this thread, as of right now even the "small" Jpeg setting it far too large out of my DSLR for forum sizing requirements...which explains my lack of uploaded pics lately.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
    9900 IH35N
    Austin, TX 78753
    micah@af1racing.com
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  2. #2
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    OK, it took me a while to get my first ride in but damn, other than the basic shape the new V&III motor is light years improved over the previous generation. The bike as a general package is much the same as previous generations though the efi is definitely improved in terms of response, cold start, warm-up, part throttle fueling and pretty much every other metric I can think of. Power is up, spec sheet numbers or no the general feel is closer to an early carbureted stock SV650 than to a V7 or V7II and I say this as a glowing endorsement not a detraction. The powerband is wide whether lugging around surface streets in top gear or pulling the up higher in the rev range at the end closer to rev limiter.

    So refreshing to experience a proper change, a change that is only possible due to final demise of the Heron cylinder head. PeteRoper...your input appreciated, see if we have similar opinions?
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
    9900 IH35N
    Austin, TX 78753
    micah@af1racing.com
    @ShoemakerMicah
    @AF1Racingaustin

  3. #3
    apriliaforum expert Hellgate's Avatar
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    Similar to a carb'd SV650, that's a pretty good bar to match. Sounds like a very nice bike.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
    Pete

  4. #4
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    Trust me, I was more than a little surprised by how improved a set of heads and a new flash make the V7III. I have always had a soft spot for V7 series Guzzis but never could get totally excited about the agricultural nature of the cylinder head design, really diggin it.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
    9900 IH35N
    Austin, TX 78753
    micah@af1racing.com
    @ShoemakerMicah
    @AF1Racingaustin

  5. #5
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Unfortunately Micah I'm no longer 'In the loop'. The importer in Oz changed and I decided to sever my ties with the new one. They have a long and illustrious reputation for getting things wrong and treating people badly. All that was in it for me was the obligation to fix up issues on their poorly prepared bikes they were pushing out the door of their 'Box Shops' into my area. The correctness of my decision was confirmed when the owner of another shop informed me that they'd had a bloke come in on a brand new Audace that was shedding parts like confetti and running like a dog! Sold out of Melbourne I believe....

    Anyway, that means I no longer get a chance to test ride new bikes, or at least finding one that has been properly PD'd and set up is going to be difficult.

    I'm also totally disheartened by Piaggio turning its back on the CARC bikes. For a brief decade Guzzi finally had a full model range of really pretty 'Modern' motorbikes that despite their modest power outputs, (By contemporary standards.) were superb road bikes and punched well above their weight. Now it seems Guzzi has been condemned to making fat-ass cruisers, (I've owned a Cali 14. I found it wanting in so many ways.) and hipstermobiles. While I have no problem with the motive package of the new Hemi-Head smallblocks I find the fact that it is still being put into a miserable 1970's chassis so it can be sold on its 'Retro Style' dispiriting beyond belief.

    Looking at the parts breakdown my guess is that within the next few years the smallblocks will 'Devolve' back to a 4 valve head. If you look at the rocker carrier assembly you'll see it already has provision for a central spark plug. My guess is we'll see a re-emergence of something very similar to the Lario top end of 30 years ago, hopefully a little better engineered though. If we're really lucky we might even get a smallblock evolution of the bigblock 'Hi-Cam' and if we do, and it's put into a decent, modern, chassis I'll not only eat my words but whoop happily while doing so but to be honest I don't hold out much hope.

    Sorry. This is probably not the response you were hoping for. I'd love to be able to share your enthusiasm for the V7-III but to me I'm afraid it is just further evidence of Piaggio's betrayal of all the things that have made Guzzi my muse for my entire working life. That saddens and disheartens me but it in no way suggests that anybody else should share my views or despondency.

    FWIW Mark, who posts here sometimes as 'Guzzi or Death' has been doing a lot of development work with the MUIG3. AFAIK there is already a preliminary map for the V9's so with a bit of luck the V7-III should be equally manageable. The interesting thing is the changes that were made to the control parameters between the original single TB models and the II series. I don't know how different the parameters are for the V9's and III's.

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  6. #6
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    Pete not disappointed in that answer in any way. I used the term agricultural to describe a last year's world cylinder head after all. CARC is without a doubt a missing element as is a modern chassis and I totally agree that style over substance is not my thing either. I am still impressed with the "new" heads on the older chassis and one thing I do dig about Guzzi not being totally modern at least on the V7 series is electronic simplicity. Thanks for your input, I value your opinions on Guzzi far more than I have probably expressed.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
    9900 IH35N
    Austin, TX 78753
    micah@af1racing.com
    @ShoemakerMicah
    @AF1Racingaustin

  7. #7
    apriliaforum Junkie wthammond's Avatar
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    Let me stipulate up front I am not worthy to carry either of you guy's jock straps. As a guy who has owned several Aprilias (currently a 1200 Caponord) and now a 2015 V7 I have loved each of them in their own way. The Capo is an excellent, if woefully underappreciated, motorbike, and can easily carve the twisties or eat the highway miles as you need. The more I ride it, the more I like it. The V7 on the other hand is definitely a 'niche' bike. Fine for bobbing around The Woodlands and OK for a short highway jaunt, but not something I'm going to take on a long trip. But DAMN does it look cool. Whenever I have it out I never fail to get positive comments. For better, and worse, it reminds me of the bikes of my 1970s youth.

    I, for one, am glad MG/Piaggo has improved the engine. Agree with Pete that until they upgrade the chassis it will always be lacking. But how to do that without losing the retro factor? Interesting as the big MG cruisers are, I really don't see how a guy who is in the market for a HD or Indian is going to make that switch? I would, but then again I wouldn't be in the market for either of those bikes in the first place. Even if I had the $.

    Let's hope MG continues to develop the brand by improving it while keeping alive what makes us love them and not letting them devolve into an anachronism.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

    Current: 2015 Caponord, 2015 Moto Guzzi V7 Special
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  8. #8
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    One of the biggest problems Guzzi face with the smallblocks is public perception. How many times will you see here or on other forums people saying that they need to 'Make more power' or that they can't understand why it makes 'So little power' when it's a 750/850. People simply don't understand the physical and mechanical limitations of a small, air cooled, engine trying to meet stringent emissions regulations. They also misunderstand how cheap and nasty some aspects of the 'Solutions' are. The MUIG3 really is a horrible thing!

    If people could just get over the swept volume of the engine and just look at them as a 'Small Motorbike' I think they'd be pleasantly surprised! The performance and speed is perfectly adequate for everyday use and plenty of people I know with them tour all over this wide, brown, land on heavily laden smallblocks so suggestions they are 'Too Small' for touring are risible! What really lets them down is their suspension! It's inexcuseably awful for a motorbike in the second decade of the twenty first century! I've ridden pre-war girder forked, rigid rear ended motorbikes that worked better! Riding one is like riding an epileptic eel with the ability to kick you in the man-parts! If you push the front it ties itself in knots and tries to wash out on anything other than glass smooth surfaces if you show it a corner and the back feels like someone is trying to hammer a length of 4x2 up yer blurter with the back end of an axe! And that's on the rare moments that the rear tyre remains in contact with the road! Horrible!

    At least the motor hums along happily and the six speed gearbox is a joy!

    Pete
    Professional Goat Burster.

  9. #9
    apriliaforum Junkie
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    I am of the opinion that a reactive final drive has little place in a bike that only produces 50 odd horse power as there is little to react with.

  10. #10
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Believe me, it's noticeable. And to actually keep the wheel in contact with the road it's vital, unless the swingarm is a mile long!
    Professional Goat Burster.

  11. #11
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    So here is the difference on the dyno between a dead stock V7 II (Heron Heads) and the new V7 III with a much more modern design of cylinder head. I do not for the life of me know why Guzzi is not bragging like hell about this improvement in performance. Do not get hung up on low peak power numbers shown in chart, our dyno reads about 15% lower than a dynojet dyno at this power level and let's face it, the V7 series of bikes are not like the go-fast version of motorcycling. Still a change this big should be noted by potential buyers! As Pete has said many times the older Heron Style heads (think basic diesel design) were indeed a huge limiting factor in how well the motor was capable of making power!
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    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
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    @AF1Racingaustin

  12. #12
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    The Heron head smallblocks are what they are. I know there are people who claim huge increases in power and torque for them but the laws of physics purse their lips and blow loud and extravagant raspberries at them! Can they be made to run nicer than stock? Sure they can, but they won't make a lot more power or torque. The 8V motor is in a very similar position because of its head/combustion chamber design and cam timing. Fixing them up requires a decent map but they will still make "About 100 at the rear wheel." The wonderful thing you can get is completely linear torque from sub 2,000rpm to almost the rev limiter.

    With the V7-III/V9 heads you've gone from a 1940's design to a 1950's design but improvements in engine management, (Even using the excreble MUIG3!) mean that it's possible to extract a bit more out of the same sized lump using the old 'Hot Ticket' tune up tricks and at least it starts out with a fighting chance.

    My guess would be that re-locating the battery and replacing the current *Joke* airbox with something with a bit of volume would help, (Pray to God nobody tries a K&N type rock strainer! But they will.) but a major limiting factor is still going to be the MUIG-3, how much air the motor can ingest is all a surface area game and a single TB to a twin manifold just ain't gunna cut it, even in the world of wheezy pushrod twins with one valve per cylinder. Perhaps when they add the extra valves, (The evidence is there its planned.) things will get better. If they revert to twin TB's and use something like the 5SM to control it all so much the better. It won't set the world on fire but it could, in the right chassis, be a ton of fun.

    Pete
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  13. #13
    apriliaforum Junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post

    My guess would be that re-locating the battery and replacing the current *Joke* airbox with something with a bit of volume would help, (Pray to God nobody tries a K&N type rock strainer! But they will.) but a major limiting factor is still going to be the MUIG-3, how much air the motor can ingest is all a surface area game and a single TB to a twin manifold just ain't gunna cut it, even in the world of wheezy pushrod twins with one valve per cylinder. Perhaps when they add the extra valves, (The evidence is there its planned.) things will get better. If they revert to twin TB's and use something like the 5SM to control it all so much the better. It won't set the world on fire but it could, in the right chassis, be a ton of fun.

    Pete
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  14. #14
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    Interesting you noticed the same thing I did under the valve cover of the V7 III/V9 heads, they definitely looked destined for 4 valves per cylinder. If the throttle body bore diameter is increased power will go up even with single TB, not mind numbing gains or anything but up none the less. The airbox is definitely not designed for power as you have noted and I have doubts it ever will be. I also have few doubts that a simple K&N style pod filter would actually increase power, they normally help the most of the lest well thought out intake tracts and do nothing on a well designed system on the cold side.

    I really do not have anything against a common plane or single TB manifold for the Guzzi's, using an appropriate sized throttle plate however would a step in the right direction especially if combined with a higher volume more refined pre throttle intake box.

    I am sure there will soon be pod filter equipped V7III series bikes lumbering around, it seems nearly inevitable really.
    Diminished expectations is the key to happiness in life.

    Micah Shoemaker
    AF1 Racing
    9900 IH35N
    Austin, TX 78753
    micah@af1racing.com
    @ShoemakerMicah
    @AF1Racingaustin

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