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Thread: Flat Tappet problems on 8V Guzzis permed 2012.

  1. #76
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    I finally got min done a few months ago with 2,000 miles on it, as Pete said they won't (and wouldn't) do it pre-emptively, despite mine being stored unregistered for years and registered in the period where this really was a known issue with a factory supported fix, so I used it a little and at the first change of sound (which was likely only the need for clearance check) it went back, got the tops off, no marks were found but they took pics of the bike in the workshop, and some 'pics they took' (ahem) and sent in the claim, all approved and bike done, I have to say I couldn't be happier, and the bike is a gem, plus I have the photo's of mine pre-work to prove later there was never an issue, should help the next owner.

    All I need now is the factory black hook on panniers which apparently are NLA .......... WTF?

    Pics and discussion in this thread and others have helped my result, so big thanks to Pete for all the effort and clarity regarding this issue.

  2. #77
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Good outcome but I'd bet anything that the damage was already evident, it is visible long before the black DLC coating begins to de-laminate. Hold the tappet at the right angle in the light and you can see the change in the reflective nature of the coating. That is the first sign and is enough to show the tappet is doomed.

    Pete
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  3. #78
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    Hi Pete, Thank you for all your input on this! I'm looking at a couple of '07/'08 Norge, one with ~10k miles, one with ~50k. I fully intend on getting the tappets checked, but will the 2-valvers eventually de-laminate as well, just not as quickly, or are these reasonably safe? Is it even possible to do a roller conversion on the older engines?

  4. #79
    apriliaforum expert FrankBlank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanclarke View Post
    Hi Pete, Thank you for all your input on this! I'm looking at a couple of '07/'08 Norge, one with ~10k miles, one with ~50k. I fully intend on getting the tappets checked, but will the 2-valvers eventually de-laminate as well, just not as quickly, or are these reasonably safe? Is it even possible to do a roller conversion on the older engines?

    The 2-valve motors' top-end is a different design, and isn't effected by this issue.

  5. #80
    apriliaforum expert rdbandkab's Avatar
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    We did around about 54,000 miles on our 06 Breva. Loved it!
    I think the new owner took it off road and put a hole in the oil pan... I think he was looking into a NTX style skidplate for it.. MY BABY!!!!
    02 aprilia Futura
    15 aprilia Caponord 1200

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankBlank View Post
    The 2-valve motors' top-end is a different design, and isn't effected by this issue.
    cool, good to know, thanks! for my elucidation, what's different about the design? I thought there were all flat tappets too.

  7. #82
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    The earlier motors were simply an evolution of the same old 2 valve per cylinder pushrod design that had been wheezing out of Mandello since 1967. Don't get me wrong, it was a great motor but was so far past its use by date it wasn't funny.

    Yes, it too uses flat tappets but the whole valvetrain design is different and the tappets are neither DLC coated or vulnerable to the issues that plagued the early 'Nuovo Hi-Cam' 8V design.

    There are only a couple of issues with the 2V Norges. Firstly there was a very short run of bad oil pumps that shattered their rotors. To the best of my knowledge these were only in a short run of 2008 bikes and they all seem to have been red! The second thing is that to check the oil you need to remove the LH fairing panel which is a king sized PITA exacerbated by the fact that the panels are all very, very flimsy to reduce weight. Carefully check the fairing panels for damage because they often are.

    Another slightly annoying thing is that you have to take off those fragile panels to balance the TB's which shouldn't be an issue but unfortunately the only screw visible with the panels on is the throttle stop screw which should never be touched and needless to say that often proves too tempting for 'Harry Hometune' who will dig out the paint and then dick about with the screw rendering the bike untuneable! Check the screw is still sealed with paint or you open yourself up to a world of pain!

    Pete
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete roper View Post
    There are only a couple of issues with the 2V Norges. ...

    Pete
    Thanks so much Pete! This is fantastic info. I was aware of the oil pump problems - wouldn't you know it, there is a red '08 up in my area. The screw you're talking about is on the left throttle body, painted yellow? I'll be sure to watch for that. Thanks again!

  9. #84
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    There are two screws on the left TB. Both have paint on them. One is the throttle stop screw, this should never be touched.

    The other is the bell crank screw that controls the relationship between the butterflies of the two throttle bodies and this one can and must be adjusted to ensure correct balance but it is imperative that the TPS be re-set after the high speed balance is achieved.

    I've covered how easy it is to service and tune a W5AM Guzzi on multiple boards and almost certainly on this one so I'm not going to do it again for people who are so lazy they need to be spoon fed but it is so simple! Apart from a small bore single cylinder side valve from the 1930's there is, I'd warrant, no simpler bike to tune!

    Pete
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  10. #85
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    Is there any way I can tell if a 2013 Griso has roller tappets or the flat tappets. I have the VIN number.

    Thanks

  11. #86
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    If it's a 13 it will be a roller. The changeover point was March/April 2012. Anything plated as a 13 should be fine. Also the numbers supplied by Piaggio are a bit rubbery so the only way to be 100% certain is whip a rocker cover off foe a looksee.

    As I said though I've never seen or heard of a flat tappet 2013 anything except 1200 Sports which were run out over years after manufacturing ceased in 2011 but the Sports were never sold in the US.

    Pete
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  12. #87
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    Pete i have a 2012 Stelvio built in March 2012( according to a factory inspection certificate i found under the saddle - engine number 12596 this has the flat tappets fitted ( this is 60 engine units before the change to rollers according to some numbers ive seen on the net.), with the lower lift camshaft (102hp), large oil ways and high volume/pressure oil pump. Have you had any of these fail. as i note all your comments refer to the high lift cam design.

    The lower lift should be a bit of a solution.

    I use oil analysis to check on any changes in the oil and so far none - bike has done 11500 miles - 17800kms.

    Out of interest the readings ppm on my oil show the following at the last check in February : chrome zero, lead zero, nickel 1, tin zero, boron 241,iron 2, silicone 4, vanadium zero, aluminium 1, copper 15, sodium 10.

    the Boron in the oil - seems to be doing the job of cushioning the cams at the minute. Bike runs on Fuchs silkolene 10/60 fully synthetic extreme performance ester oil.

    I am in northern Uk and ride through the winter so zero degrees or below at times - the bike has oil / filter changes every 3000 miles and sump removed cleaned, gauze filter checked everything spotlessly clean at last service .

    I wait for any sign of changes in the metal content in the oil, the minute a raise in the Ppm show I will pop the bike in for an inspection of the flat tappet cams.

    I have been told that if they fail they usually fail early in life so be interesting to see what happens over the next year.

  13. #88
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    First of all your assumption on the lift of the cams is incorrect. Yes, part numbers changed and it was always assumed that this was because the profiles changed. They didn’t. The part numbers changed because the factory started shimming the cams for end float to try and shut the top end up! The early 8V’s were really cacophonous! If you graph them you’ll find that the actual profiles remained identical. Nor were there any meaningful changes too the oil pump and since the tappet and cam interface I lubricated by splash it’s an irrelevance. The weir design in the camboxes was changed. It achieved nothing.

    Secondly the failures have nothing to do with the oil used. The use of a decent full ester syntheytic oil is required because although overall the 8V runs ridiculously cool there are parts of the motor where it’s ability to withstand heat is sorely tested.

    All the flat tappet engines are doomed. No exceptions. Some may last longer than others but they will all fail. Inspecting the tappets on a Griso takes about fifteen minutes per side. I have not yet seen a bike with over 20,000km that didn’t have visible wear. Many with completely trash themselves much earlier, it depends on how the engine is used and to a lesser degree climate.

    For many years I defended the design because I wasn’t seeing any failures on bikes I’d serviced from new. This was a major error on my part as they were in fact failing, just not catastrophically or even noticeably. It isn’t until all the DLC has been abraded from the tappet face that it begins to make a noise and cause running problems. By then the subsequent damage may have far greater repercussions. Since I first started getting obvious failures I began to be able to pick some subtle, tell-tale signs of imminent demise but bikes will still run almost normally with quite extensive damage. Before that point I’d instituted a strict policy of inspection for every flat tappet machine that came through my shop. If the owner said “No” then my tools stayed in the box. Only a couple of people refused and they subsequently sold their bikes flick-passing the problem to the next owner! Classy eh? Since that time I have found a 100% attrition rate. Not ‘A few’, not ‘Some’, 100%, every stone motherless one of them. How many rollerisation has Motomoda done now? No idea, I stopped counting at around the hundred mark and we’re are still doing enough of them that I keep an ‘A’ kit and a ‘C’ kit on the shelf at all times. Remember, we’re a little two man shop in rural Oz but as the previous importer said, while I was still an official service agent,we do more rollerisations “By an order of magnitude” to use their words than anybody else in the country. Recently Michael has been flown to Brisbane and New Zealand by customers frustrated by the refusal of their shops to check for damage because “It's running fine. We’ve never seen a failure.” And yes, they were failing of course.

    Stop grasping at straws. Checking to see whether your 2012 model has rollers or flatties is as simple as pulling a rocker cover and gurning at the cambox. Actually checking the tappets takes about fifteen minutes a side to remove and open the cambox, (There’s a vid of me doing this to the LH cambox on a Griso up on the Ghetto. The vid is 13 minutes long. It’s not rocket science!) at the mileage your machine is at I’d expect there to be substantial ‘Bullseye’ damage to the DLC on the tappets. Even discolouration is damage and any fleck of missing DLC means you’re risking further engine damage.

    Don’t delay. Act now. Save your motor, the 8V’s are worth it.

    Pete
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  14. #89
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    Hi Pete, thanks very much for the reply above - my bikes a Stelvio not the Griso i think you maybe crossed wires with reading all this stuff over and over.

    What I don't understand from your video is when you take the cam box out you have in reality loosened the cylinder head therefore the head gasket is knackered so that has to make it a much bigger job than your video suggests.

    My Local MG dealer says that when he has been supplied the warranty kit for other bikes he has done - the head gasket and the cylinder base gaskets are supplied in the kit along with exhaust and injector inlet gaskets and are part of the job, and that MG requires removing the barrel to fit a new base gasket and new head gasket on rebuild.

    This is what has prevented me from having the tappets inspected to date. Are you simply not doing this and just rebuilding without this work and I assume having no problems with head gasket leaks ?.

    Cheers Jake.

  15. #90
    apriliaforum expert pete roper's Avatar
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    Bullshit. The gaskets are coated steel, not kingerlite and are essentially incompressible. As long as you don’t twist, tug or otherwise buggerise about with the head, on models that don’t require the heads to be removed, (A and B kit engines.) you simply replace the camboxes and re-torque. If your shop says they always get three sets of head gaskets it’s because they have only done C or D kit bikes. They need the head removing to fit shims under the inlet valve spring seats. A and B bikes are NOT supplied with gaskets.

    Everything in that video is exactly as simple as inspecting the tappets are. If your bike is an A kit bike, (A 2012 Stelvio will be, there are no different timing systems for different models. One cam rules them all!) the full swap will take, including pulling and cleaning the sump and replacing the suspect sump spacer gasket, about 4.5-5hrs including the post rebuild tune.

    The reason why the C and D kits include gaskets is because the combustion chamber squish, (Quench in some places.) is set with differentialy thicknesses gaskets to assist with reducing emissions, most importantly oxides of nitrogen. If your shop doesn’t get this I suggest you find another shop.

    In all of the rollerisations I’ve done I have NEVER removed a barrel to replace the base gasket, which is also coated steel, I can’t remember a single occasion where I have encountered a leak from anywhere other than perished breather hoses after the operation.

    Pete

    PS. If your shop says their kits are supplied with base gaskets I suggest they get their eyes checked! I sincerely hope they didn’t McGyver a couple of head gaskets into base gaskets with tin snips. Part numbers are on the bags!
    Professional Goat Burster.

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