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Thread: Urgent service message, tons of white smoke

  1. #76
    apriliaforum expert High Country's Avatar
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    Glad you got it all sorted. I imagine you learned a lot about these bikes in the process, so there is that silver lining to your winter clouds.
    2009 Aprilia Dosoduro 750 (Adventurized: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/a...893274&thumb=1)

  2. #77
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    Excellent news, a happy ending.

    I am pretty experienced at wrenching, but changing an engine is not a job I would take lightly, absolute respect to you for doing it successfully (eventually!!)

  3. #78
    apriliaforum expert MARTCO78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyL View Post
    Excellent news, a happy ending.

    I am pretty experienced at wrenching, but changing an engine is not a job I would take lightly, absolute respect to you for doing it successfully (eventually!!)
    I second that. Great patience and dogged refusal to give up. Excellent.


  4. #79
    apriliaforum expert Frodo's Avatar
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    +100! Not a job I want to do!
    A question. You wrote: "the loose airbox clamp was the culprit".
    Can you clarify? I always like to learn from other's experience.
    THanks
    Frodo
    2015 Shiver
    New Zealand

  5. #80
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    He snapped the head off the airbox clamp screw and it was loose, but because it was hard to get too, he left it for later.

    He thought it wouldn't matter, but it turned out it did matter, it was leaking and causing poor running and errors.

  6. #81
    apriliaforum expert Frodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyL View Post
    He snapped the head off the airbox clamp screw and it was loose, but because it was hard to get too, he left it for later.

    He thought it wouldn't matter, but it turned out it did matter, it was leaking and causing poor running and errors.
    And that caused the motor to fail?
    Frodo
    2015 Shiver
    New Zealand

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo View Post
    And that caused the motor to fail?
    The bike ran but I guess it was tripping some sensors out.

    Glad you got everything sorted sir. Many people would have given up and taken the bike to a dealer or just bought a new bike.

  8. #83
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    The original engine failure was a dropped valve IIRC. The airbox was leaking after the engine change, and that caused poor running.

  9. #84
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo View Post
    And that caused the motor to fail?
    AndyL and RTS are right.

    When I said "and that (the airbox clamp) was the issue", what I was referring to was the stalling and subsequent error codes on the new engine. When I was installing the new engine, when I tightened the airbox clamp on the rear cylinder, the feckin' head sheared off and at the time, I thought, quite wrongly, that the screw failed but was still holding the clamp tightly. It rode fine for about 45 mins, during which time the clamp shimmied loose from engine/road vibration and what not, and poof, the engine stalled, wouldn't run for more than a minute after re-starting, and threw a P0211 error code - a code you can't read without two special patch cords and the GuzziDiag software. Anyway, pulling the airbox and putting on a new clamp solved the issue.

    But as far as the original cause of the original engine failure? Well, I'll say this. The valves dropped, yes. Both the front and rear intakes had one dropped valve (valve head fell down) and the other valve wasn't dropped but the shaft was severely bent. I posted a pic in this thread. As far as what caused that - the dropped and bent valves - I still don't know. I sold the engine to a fellow forum member. Perhaps he'll find the issue. He bought it to see if he could rehab it for a project bike.

    As far as the engine swap, I can spin a wrench but I'm by no means a great mechanic. I'd rate myself a solid 3 out of 5 stars. Competent, I'd say. Guys like amauri and others here are true mechanics with a capital 'M'. It's they're livelihood and they've forgotten more about bike maintenance than I'll ever know. This is by far the biggest undertaking on a motorcycle I've ever done. It seemed like a monumental task but in the end, as with anything else in life, you have to be patient, take your time, document things. Like the old adage about eating the elephant one bite at a time, I worked on this swap for about a month. Compared to the year it was down and not rideable bc of the blown engine, the time didn't seem long, to be honest. I did most of the work myself but had a bud help me actually drop the old engine and fit in the new, which was easy, actually, and took maybe 2-3 hrs. It was the undoing and redoing of everything in order to swap the engine that took so long. But, hell, I enjoy that kind of work and challenge. I found it very rewarding as I learned a lot and now don't fear tearing the bike down, as I did in the past.

    There were times indeed when I thought I'd give up and sell it with the blown engine, for cheap, just to be rid of it. But I've owned her (or vice versa?) since '09 and in the end I figured I owed it to myself and to the bike to do everything I could within reason. I got a few quotes from a dealer and a private shop to do the swap and both were USD $800, which isn't bad, but I thought, hell, I'd really mostly be paying for their time to spin wrenches, not for any intricate knowledge, bc like I said, the swap really wasn't that hard, to be honest. The hardest part, seriously, was the first step, which was TO DECIDE to undertake the job. Once past that, I never looked back. You can look in the workshop manual at the chapter titled "Vehicle From Engine", which starts on pg 141. It ends at pg 147. That's it! Six pages. I just had to be methodical about labeling screws and such, which I did by grouping them and putting them into labeled paper cups. But, I'm an engineer, so I could be rightly accused of being overly organized.

    Thanks again to all here. This forum is truly golden, full of a bunch of friendly, helpful folks, to whom I'm deeply indebted for helping me through this.
    Last edited by vtwin_pilot; 11-03-2016 at 10:46 AM.

  10. #85
    apriliaforum expert High Country's Avatar
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    The fact that both cylinders had dropped valves tell me it wasn't a random valve stem failure. Somehow the engine jumped timing, allowing pistons to hit valves. I don't know enough about the internals to say how that is possible, but that is what happened. Isn't there a lower chain that connects the crankshaft to the valve train? Is there a tensioner on that chain?
    2009 Aprilia Dosoduro 750 (Adventurized: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/a...893274&thumb=1)

  11. #86
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Ooh, my bad, I didn't mean both cylinders, I meant both intake and exhaust valves on the REAR cylinder only. Sheesh, what was I thinking?!? Anyway, the rear plug was also friggin' decapitated to the point that the electrode was simply gone. The plug was sheared off up a few flats of the threaded body.

    So yeah, HC, you're right, it wasn't random valve failure. I took the head cover off and inspected things, expecting to see the chain broken or basically something out of order, but all looked good to me, so I assumed that it had to have been an issue further down. Someone suggested - and this seems entirely feasible - that the conrod failed, causing the piston to go up high enough to shear off the plug, which in turn caused the valves to go out of time and start slapping and such until they broke and bent. Of course all that happened in a millisecond. I'd been on a two-day, 800-mile weekend, at the end of it actually, when it happened, and during the ride, there was zero indication of any abnormalities. It truly was a quick and catastrophic death.

  12. #87
    apriliaforum expert High Country's Avatar
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    If only one cylinder, it is possible that one valve failed and bent the other as it bounced around. It would be interesting if the buyer gives us some comment once he digs into it.
    2009 Aprilia Dosoduro 750 (Adventurized: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/a...893274&thumb=1)

  13. #88
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    I agree with HC, it could be as simple as one valve breaking (over tight clearance?) and then doing the rest of the damage......

    Conrod failure is exceptionally rare in an unstressed engine, but anything is possible if there are manufacturing faults in play.

    Would also love to know the results of the post-mortem.

  14. #89
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    The failure was with one cylinder, but keep in mind, there are both intake and exhaust valves (2 each for total of 4). Oddly, coincidentally (or not), both the intake and exhaust valves had similar damage:

    Intake valves: one dropped valve (detached head from the stem), one bent stem (head still attached)
    Exhaust valves: one dropped valve (detached head from the stem), one bent stem (head still attached)

    Did the detached valve head of one valve bend the stem of the other? Entirely possible. But...how in the world did that same thing happen on BOTH sides - intake and exhaust? That's what has me scratching my head. Add to that the sheared off spark plug, and I figure this wasn't a valve failure that caused the spark plug to shear off, nor a spark plug failure that caused the valve damage, but rather, a third actor that caused both of those scenarios. What might that be?

    If all the valves are damaged, does that point to a valvetrain issue somewhere? I thought maybe the timing chain had snapped or otherwise jumped or something, but when I checked, all looked good. Did the camshaft fail? Lots of possibilities.

    Hopefully firemoto, the guy who bought the engine, will figure it out and let us know.

  15. #90
    apriliaforum expert Frodo's Avatar
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    If one valve head breaks off, for whatever reason, this can cause a hell of a mess. This could include damage to the spark plug and other valves.
    Imagine what this piston with embedded valve head does to the head at 5000rpm.
    Name:  valve_failure.jpg
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    But I have no idea what caused the original failure.
    Frodo
    2015 Shiver
    New Zealand

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