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Thread: Urgent service message, tons of white smoke

  1. #61
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    Damn vtwin_pilot, it sucks to be you! Hopfully i can help ;-)! Read the topic and couldn't resist to register to help you out with some info for getting to the error codes on your shiver. Don't know if you know these options?

    Found a pice of software (here on the forum) called GuzziDiag and it can read the Aprillia Shiver's error codes as far as i know. Here is a link to the forum topic:
    http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...-Dorsoduro-750

    Here is a youtube how-to and a link (in the discription) to the parts that you will need...:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J01ZP2ohiYQ

    Hope this will help you save the 5 hr's travel time and the 80$/hr shop rate!

  2. #62
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyL View Post
    The inlet manifold clamp is quite important, you will get leaks with no clamp, even with what seems a tight fit. I'm afraid you'll need to fix that, good chance to double check all the hoses mentioned in the error.

    Worry about the CAN error later, there was another fairly recent post about that IIRC.

    Good luck and hang in there, you've nearly done it!
    Yup, I've been fretting about that rotten clamp since it happened. I'll tear into it and fix it for sure. Thanks for the suggestion and confirmation.

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalTireSkid View Post
    I'm sure you'll figure it out soon and be better for it.
    Fingers crossed. I'm really trying like hell to avoid having to take it to the dealer for them to diagnose it on PADS and say, oh, it was so-and-so sensor, that'll be $300 please! I can do that simple stuff thanks to this forum and the fine chap, whoever he is, who wrote Guzzidiag. Anyone know who he is? No info about himself on that site. Bottom line, I'm donating to him, no doubt. That software has already saved me hundreds as well as arming me with a tool to diagnose on my own. That's priceless.

    Last night I ran the throttle and handle self-learning functions, cleared the three error codes, and went for a short ride. No joy. Stalled after two minutes. This time though, the only code pulled was P0211. Many threads on the forum here indicate the 211 code being related to a MAP sensor failure. Symptoms, though, typically include surging to 4-5K RPM inexplicably, no throttle response, and stalling. I have only the stalling issue.

    Regardless, because I myself installed the airbox with the engine swap, it's entirely possible I pinched something. I checked the rubber hose that runs from the front cylinder almost straight up to the front corner of the airbox (i.e., the vacuum hose that the MAP measures), where the MAP sensor is inside, and it looked fine, but still. I'll just have to pull the airbox and see. It'll also afford me the chance to replace that crappy rear manifold clamp with the sheared head. I have two known good MAP sensors sitting in the old airbox, so I can replace the front with one to see if it helps. In a different thread about a 0211 code, Amauri from the RSV forum's advice to swap the front MAP with the back MAP and see if the error changes from the 0211 (front cylinder) to 0210 (rear) is a good idea.

    Ah, the pleasures of Italian bike ownership. But she sure looks good in the garage!
    Last edited by vtwin_pilot; 09-20-2016 at 08:20 AM.

  3. #63
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    I replaced the front MAP sensor with a known good one from my other airbox. Cleared codes. Went for a test ride and no joy. Bike ran for about two minutes and then stalled. Back to the garage and pulled another 0211. No other codes.

    Any ideas? I'm tapped.

  4. #64
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    As you may already know, the MAP sensors measure the negative pressure (vacuum) in the manifolds.
    This vacuum in the manifold comes from the pistons sucking thru the intake valves.

    The ECU knows what the manifold pressure should be at any given engine RPM, vehicle speed and gear engaged.
    It knows this by using algorithms in the ECU's firmware to estimate the load on the engine and compares the estimated values to what the MAP sensors are measuring.

    When these values don’t match, the ECU posts the P0210 or P0211 error.

    I very rarely work on the Shiver, Dorso & Capo engines, when I do it is only for routine services. So I don’t have experience troubleshooting engine fault codes on them.

    But I do work on a lot of RSV4 engines, they use the same MAP sensors and ECU algorithms as the Shiver.

    Since you’ve already eliminated the sensor itself, the next logical step is to look at the vacuum source by installing two vacuum gauges, one between each cylinder’s manifold and MAP sensor.
    This way you can run the engine and measure the actual vacuum readings and compare the two cylinders.

    You say that you installed a brand new in the crate engine, but in reality you don't know for sure if it is brand new since you got it from ebay.
    I hate to say it but it could be a defective engine replaced under warranty, the dealer who replaced it put the old engine in the crate and never returned it to Aprilia. Happens all the time.

    I would perform a compression test on each cylinder and also remove the valve covers to ck the valve clearances.
    Last edited by amauri; 09-22-2016 at 12:16 AM.
    Never accept mediocrity, always demand competence.

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  5. #65
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    Yea... did you fix that clamp you said broke/came loose? May still be the culprit. Maybe the intake valves are way out and you're putting reverse pressure into the intake?

  6. #66
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Many thanks for the advice, amauri. My first thought after buying and picking up the engine was to check it for signs that it'd been installed/used. I looked for obvious signs like marks on the countershaft that would've been left by the installation of the sprocket, marks in the exhaust area from the exhaust pipe having been hooked up, etc. I looked for marks especially around the engine mounting bolt areas, areas where you'd expect to see signs when the engine spacers we have on our Shivers are put in because they're a super tight fit as you mount the engine. Two of the three engine mounting bolts have huge (one's 1" or so, the other 1/2"?) spacers between the engine and the mounting holes in the frame. Also, all electrical cords were sort of rolled/coiled up tidy and neatly, as you'd expect from the factory, and orifices had plastic covers in them. The countershaft had a very hard-to-remove plastic protective cap on it too. Would a dealer have gone through the pain to redo those minute details after installing it and finding out it was bad? Perhaps, but one wouldn't think so. It really did have the appearance of a new, never-before-used engine.

    But anything's possible, of course. It's a risk I chose to take.

    Thanks again for the advice and I'll definitely check the pressures. The manual shows a spec of 1003 mbar so I'll use that as a guide. If the gauge I buy (hey, I'm a shade-tree mechanic, I don't have one yet!) doesn't have mbar, I'll assume a simple conversion to PSI (14.5) or inHg (29.5) will do.

    RTS, no, I didn't fix that rotten f#@king clamp (grumble). I just went into the airbox for the MAPs. Didn't actually pull it off. Bc the error code is related to the front cylinder, I'm assuming that, while not ideal, the loose clamp isn't causing a pressure issue or else I'd've gotten a 0210 code indicating the rear manifold pressure was off. But...yes....I'll at some point pull the airbox and rectify that.

    I'm unfortunately running out of DIY options and getting closer to having to haul 'er to the dealer.

  7. #67
    just another Aprilia fanatic amauri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtwin_pilot View Post
    . Would a dealer have gone through the pain to redo those minute details after installing it and finding out it was bad? Perhaps, but one wouldn't think so.
    That is not what I was getting at on my previous post.

    The scenario I was insinuating is that a dealer replaced a bad engine on a new bike under warranty and put the old engine back in the box.
    Std procedure is that the dealer must hold on to the engine for a certain amount of time in case Aprilia wants it sent back to the factory for failure analysis.

    If Aprilia did not request the defective engine to be sent back, it is up to the dealer to dispose of it.
    That engine may sit around in the back room somewhere for years, everyone forgets about it and there are no notes about what condition it is in.
    One of the dealer’s employees will take that defective engine and sell it thinking that it is a good engine all nicely packed up in the original box.

    Anyway, didn’t mean to be pessimistic, but I’ve seen this happen several times.

    A brand new 2008 Shiver engine retails for $4,492.79 hopefully your problem is a simple leak in the vacuum hoses and you got a brand new engine for 1/3 the price.

    BTW,
    From what I read in this thread, you’ve already performed all the troubleshooting steps your dealer will perform.
    Don’t take it to the dealer, PADS will not tell them anything different that what you already know with Guzzi Diag.

    I get V4’s in here all the time where a customer got fed up with the dealer not being able to diagnose it. Seems like if PADS doesn’t tell them exactly what it wrong, they are lost.

    I’m sure you’re a bit discouraged from all the time you’ve spent on it so far, but you’re on the right track.
    Sometimes we just have to step back and leave the bike alone for a few days. Get back to it when your mind is cleared up and ready to go at it again, that’s what I do.
    Never accept mediocrity, always demand competence.

    Certified Aprilia Moto Service in Southern California
    Call me at 714 892-4056 for appointment

  8. #68
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    www.convert-me.com

    Thats what I use for all of my engineering related conversions.

  9. #69
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    In all my research, I came across a thread somewhere on this forum where a guy couldn't figure out his issue, and someone posted up something to the effect of "the solution is probably the thing you just looked at", implying that you've come across the solution but didn't realize it.

    I think that just happened to me...

    When I started pulling codes with the Guzzidiag software and cross-referencing them with the codes in the workshop manual, somehow - I don't know how - I got it in my head that 0211 was an error with the front cylinder's manifold pressure. It indeed is not; it's with the REAR cylinder.

    Well, hell, I've known for a while that the rear clamp of the airbox isn't right, that the friggin' screw head sheared off when I was tightening it, but I dismissed it at the time, thinking the head sheared off after the clamp was tight, or that the rubber seal of the airbox was tight enough on the manifold and that the clamp didn't matter. All wrong. I fooled myself. And somehow in the past couple of days, I reversed the error code and thought it was a front issue. How, I've no idea.

    So, off to the garage to fix the g.d. thing I should've fixed in the first place, that clamp! It just might do the trick. Fingers crossed....

    Props to AndyL, RTS, and amauri for making me go back and rethink things.

  10. #70
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amauri View Post
    Don’t take it to the dealer, PADS will not tell them anything different that what you already know with Guzzi Diag.

    I get V4’s in here all the time where a customer got fed up with the dealer not being able to diagnose it. Seems like if PADS doesn’t tell them exactly what it wrong, they are lost.
    Thanks for verifying that. I suspected that might be the case but I'm glad you confirmed it.

  11. #71
    apriliaforum expert Yankee_750's Avatar
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    Maaaate...
    This is too weird. Your bike was trying to tell you... Nay, PLEADING with you! She knew she had a minuscule bolt head missing, and was trying to communicate it to you!
    Un-freakin'-believable!
    Who says these modern techno-computers-on-wheels are not easier to work on than small block V8's from 50 years ago?!?
    The damn thing communicates to you the problem! er, in most cases - if you are listening!
    AWESOME!
    when are they taking over again?! The 2017's must be even "better", eh?!
    Please let us know if she thanks you for fixing that clamp!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtwin_pilot View Post
    In all my research, I came across a thread somewhere on this forum where a guy couldn't figure out his issue, and someone posted up something to the effect of "the solution is probably the thing you just looked at", implying that you've come across the solution but didn't realize it.

    I think that just happened to me...

    Don't worry, I've done the same.

    Experience tells me to be super sure and double check everything as you put it back together, saves time and headaches in the long run.

    This is why I think shop mech's are sometimes not as good as DIY, they just don't have the time to be super vigilant about everything as they put it back together, although I do suspect most wouldn't have left that clamp unfixed!

    I really do hope, for your sake, it was that simple.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyL View Post
    Don't worry, I've done the same.


    This is why I think shop mech's are sometimes not as good as DIY, they just don't have the time to be super vigilant about everything as they put it back together, although I do suspect most wouldn't have left that clamp unfixed!
    I would be inclined think those shop techs would claim it was already broken and charge you for it.. in my experiences.

  14. #74
    apriliaforum expert High Country's Avatar
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    Does this fall under "can't see the forest for the trees"?

    **fingers crossed**
    2009 Aprilia Dosoduro 750 (Adventurized: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/a...893274&thumb=1)

  15. #75
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Update:

    All's good. My Shiver, after a long and protracted idle year starting with the initial engine failure a year ago, is once again back on the road! Yes, the loose airbox clamp was the culprit. The code it threw (P0210) was spot on given it was the clamp on the rear cylinder that was loose.

    So, a happy ending. I now have to ride sanely with the RPM's limited to 6k for the first 600 miles for the break-in. I'll hit 600 soon, change the oil, reset the RPM up the normal 10,500 or so, and then be all set, just in time for...winter (sigh). Thankfully winter isn't all that long or cold here in the Southern U.S. It's almost a 12-month riding season - solid 10 at least.

    Thanks again for everyone's help and encouragement here. I couldn't have done it without you. Much, much appreciated.

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