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Thread: Urgent service message, tons of white smoke

  1. #46
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High Country View Post
    I seem to remember reading about similar rpm issues that were eventually solved by "calibrating the throttle bodies". I would not be surprised if a new engine needed this upon installation. I cannot think how that would be related to the odd speedometer readings, though. Maybe the speedo needs calibration as well, but I wouldn't think so. That could be a separate issue caused by a loose connection. You might try packing the related connections with dielectric grease if you haven't already done so.
    I'd talked with AF1 and also Superbike Specialties in Savannah and I think it was the former who said I might need to sync the TPS upon start up bc the ECU would have no idea or baseline. Well, if that were the case, I wonder why it started and idled fine several times and then throughout my ride. He's implied that upon start up, if the TPS needed syncing, the RPMs could be wildly high and off. That wasn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalTireSkid View Post
    maybe call AF1 or in general an aprilia shop and see if there is anything special you need to do with an engine swap that you missed.
    I've talked with dealers several times throughout and even before the engine swap. Superbike Specialties was super nice and helpful. I just got off the phone with them and he gave me the answer I expected "gotta bring it in for us to diagnose". This is why I want to learn how to read codes myself. I shouldn't need to trailer my bike 5 hrs and spend $80/hr for them to get a code. Now, if I get the code and then don't know how or can't fix it, that's another thing entirely, and I'd not hesitate in taking it to the dealer. That's why they should be there, to do things I can't, not simply to read a code.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtwin_pilot View Post
    I've talked with dealers several times throughout and even before the engine swap. Superbike Specialties was super nice and helpful. I just got off the phone with them and he gave me the answer I expected "gotta bring it in for us to diagnose". This is why I want to learn how to read codes myself. I shouldn't need to trailer my bike 5 hrs and spend $80/hr for them to get a code. Now, if I get the code and then don't know how or can't fix it, that's another thing entirely, and I'd not hesitate in taking it to the dealer. That's why they should be there, to do things I can't, not simply to read a code.
    I arrived to this forum because I was looking for this very information. I wanted to open a specific thread too, but apparently it's still something that nobody was able to do. The thread you linked a couple of posts above looks like the best I've found so far so I'm gonna read it all in the next days.

    So far, from my other researches, all I found out is that there are two official ways to do that. One is to use a product (few actually) made by Texa, specifically the Axone 4, Axone 4 Mini or Axone S which is for bikes only. You can also try to get one of the old ones, they're called Navigator I guess. Now, these are professional tools, and cost a fortune, from 3500€ to 1900€ the "cheapest" one. You can try to find a Navigator in the second hand market but that's not gonna cost 50 bux anyway. What you can try is to find a "friendly mech" that lets you run just the diagnostic since all of them must have one of those things if they want to work nowadays. Or even better, call one of the Texa's retailers and tell them you're interested in buying one of their products and let him come at your place to run the diagnostics at your bike.

    The second way is called PADS (Piaggio Advanced Diagnosis System) but to have one of those you must have a partnership with Piaggio and it's nothing a private can have. Still, this should be way cheaper than the Texa stuff so if you can grab ahold of one of those, it's a win.
    Last edited by Rostuff; 09-08-2016 at 02:51 PM.

  3. #48
    apriliaforum expert High Country's Avatar
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    Crap those things are expensive. Here is a used one for $2000.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/TEXA-TXT-NAV...8AAOSw9IpX0WsY

    I do see something called a Texa Axone 2000 on eBay for around $400. I did a Google search for "Texa Axone 2000 Aprilia" and found some results saying it would read some Aprilia bikes. I didn't read any of it, though, so you might want to look into that option.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/TEXA-AXONE-2...814320&vxp=mtr

    This website says it reads the Shiver 750:
    https://www.perthstreetbikes.com/for...d.php?t=103225
    2009 Aprilia Dosoduro 750 (Adventurized: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/a...893274&thumb=1)

  4. #49
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    I ordered and received the two cords needed to read the ECU codes along with the Guzzidiag software.

    I did the dumbest fcking thing. When I went to put the alligator clamps on the battery, I totally wasn't paying attention and hooked up the negative lead to the positive battery terminal. Fudge! Within 2 seconds it was smoking and I took it off quickly when I realized what I'd done.

    The cord in that short amount of time got really warm, no surprise. I mean, there was a bit of smoke in those couple of seconds while it was connected!. I didn't have the OBD-to-USB cord connected to it, so that wasn't part of this. But the Fiat-to-OBD was plugged into the bike's diagnostic plug. I hope to God I didn't fry the ECU. I disconnected the cords from the port and then turned on the ignition and all looked fine. I assume if I fried it, it wouldn't even boot up, or it'd be all jacked up. That's my assumption. I fired the bike up and it fired up fine, settling into the usual 1500 RPM. Again, I figure if the ECU was fried, there'd be no signal from it to tell it what RPM to use, so it'd have been really high or low.

    Don't know. What are the symptoms of a fried ECU? Various and sundry probably - too long a list to put here. I'm guessing the Fiat cord is fried. I plan to get a new one (Fiat cord, that is, not ECU) and try this again, paying more attention next time. But any thoughts on the ECU? Really hoping I didn't cook it. Damn. Dumb mistake. That's what I get doing it at midnight! Should've known I wasn't in the right state of mind for this.

    I did try anyway to hook things up and get a code after this little incident. After I hit "Connect" and then turned on the ignition, it would wait a few seconds and then return a "Ignition Off" message. I'm hoping that's due to the Fiat cord being fried and not being able to transmit a signal. I'd have not been surprised if the Guzzidiag software returned a "You fried the ECU, you dumbass!" message....I'd have deserved it....

    The "apriliaforum expert" title above my avatar? Yeah, hey moderator, please change that to "apriliaforum's resident dumbass".
    Last edited by vtwin_pilot; 09-15-2016 at 02:52 PM.

  5. #50
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    I wouldn't think that would fry anything but rather blow out fuses. but im not an electrician either. Hope you're not having anymore bad luck from now on vtwin...

    I know the feeling but you've been having a particularly bad time haha.

  6. #51
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    While I was trying to find the right cables to buy (FTDI chipset and whatnot) I've read in the comments that some of the 3 pin Fiat adapter, those with the crocodile things, have the polarities inverted, meaning the red is negative and black positive. That freaked me out quite a bit and as far as I know you can only find it out testing them with a voltmeter. I think if you have a positive reading, plugging red to red and black to black of course, that means they're correct, otherwise you should have it negative, but I'm really dumb at electric things so wait for confirmation or tell me how to find out positive and negative in a circuit where you don't know which is which.

    That being said if you didn't switch the bike on with the battery shorted the ECU should be fine and as you said if it was fried you couldn't fire the engine up at all, that I'm pretty sure. As for the battery, it certainly took a hit. How big a hit it's hard to say but again, if the bikes boots up it ain't dead (yet) :p
    Last edited by Rostuff; 09-15-2016 at 12:11 PM.

  7. #52
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    It sounds like the ECU is fine.

    To find out +ve and -ve

    If the volt meter reads +ve voltage, then whatever cable the red probe is connected to is the +ve.

    If the volt meter reads -ve voltage, then whatever cable the red probe is connected to is -ve.

    Obviously the black probe is the opposite.

    Easy, but stupid, mistake to make. I've done it more than once.......

  8. #53
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalTireSkid View Post
    I wouldn't think that would fry anything but rather blow out fuses. but im not an electrician either. Hope you're not having anymore bad luck from now on vtwin...

    I know the feeling but you've been having a particularly bad time haha.
    Thanks, man. We'll see.

    According to this wiring diagram I was able to get off someone's link on this forum, because the version in the PDF service manual is so illegible, there's a direct line of course to the ECU so that it can bring the signal from the ECU and through the ECU's diagnostic plug under the seat.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The diagnostic port is #18 and you can see the one wire that goes right over to the ECU. No fuse, nothing, but I wouldn't think there would be. WHo knows, remains to be seen what if any damage was done. I ordered a new Fiat-OBD cord so when that arrives I'll give this diagnostic thing another whirl.
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  9. #54
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyL View Post
    It sounds like the ECU is fine.

    To find out +ve and -ve

    If the volt meter reads +ve voltage, then whatever cable the red probe is connected to is the +ve.

    If the volt meter reads -ve voltage, then whatever cable the red probe is connected to is -ve.

    Obviously the black probe is the opposite.

    Easy, but stupid, mistake to make. I've done it more than once.......
    Here's hoping upon hope.

    Not being fluent in things electrical, it took me some time to figure out WHAT to put the mm leads to. Obviously one goes on the alligator clips, but the OBD has 16 pins so finally I just looked at a pin-out for a clue as to where to place the lead in the OBD connector:


    So 16 is the positive and 4 the negative. I just looked for continuity and both tested as they should have.

    Edit: 5 is the right pin for checking the negative cable of the Fiat cord. 4 is for the chassis.
    Last edited by vtwin_pilot; 09-20-2016 at 08:13 AM.

  10. #55
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rostuff View Post
    so wait for confirmation or tell me how to find out positive and negative in a circuit where you don't know which is which
    I'm the same way, but it's easy, Rostuff, you can do it. Electrics aren't my forte either, but I'm trying to get better, and with electrical issues like this, it forces me to learn.

    See my diagram above for reference. Set your multimeter to Ohms and do a continuity test. If you don't know how, there are a million how-to instructions online. But here's a quick primer. Put the positive multimeter lead on the positive alligator clamp (actually it doesn't matter because we're checking for an open circuit). Put the other into #16. If that makes a circuit (continuity), and it should, you'll get close to a zero reading, or some mm's make a sound. Do the same with the negative. Put one lead on the negative alligator and the other into pin slot #4. Again, look for continuity. The trick to taking a reading with the OBD plug is getting your lead down in far enough to make contact with the metal socket in there. If you're just shy of touching metal, and you get a 1 on your mm, you might think it's an open circuit by mistake when instead you just didn't touch metal. I had to push the mm lead a bit hard to be sure it touched metal. I read a good trick which was to put a sewing needle into the OBD slot to guarantee it gets down in there and touches metal, then just touch your mm lead to the needle.
    Last edited by vtwin_pilot; 09-15-2016 at 04:01 PM.

  11. #56
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    Ok I'll do that but I was talking about something else. You must check the cables in the adapter itself cuz some apparently are defective and have inverted colors/polarities so you may have probably connected them properly but.... see "1 star" comments on amazon

    USE WITH CAUTION!!!
    The pos/neg wires had the red/black covers on the wrong wires. When hooking this cable up on my Ducati 1098s it caused a short in the ECU that is not repairable. I am sure this was completely NOT intentional by the manufacturer but is a seriously expensive lesson. Please test this fiat cable with a multi meter before using so you don't wind up in the same boat as I am. Waiting to hear back from Amazon and the manufacturer on a possible solution to this matter.

    ......

    Trust but verify
    Before using this cable I tested each pin and the two leads. I found the K and L pins on the Fiat plug were reversed. If the black and red leads were reversed when you connect it your ECM would be fried. Test cable before using!

    ....

    Works on a Moto Guzzi
    Be VERY careful when connecting it to the battery. If you mess up positive and negative, it will self destruct, pop and smoke. Yes, I know from first hand experience.


    even for the new ones you're going to get
    Last edited by Rostuff; 09-15-2016 at 03:39 PM.

  12. #57
    apriliaforum expert vtwin_pilot's Avatar
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    I've some good news. I was able to read codes finally! I ordered a new Fiat-to-OBD cable to replace the one I fried, and that worked. Seems I didn't fry the ECU with my hare-brained switching of leads the other day.

    My codes are:
    P0216
    P0211
    U1701

    And here are the fault descriptions from the service manual:

    Estimation error for rear cylinder intake manifold pressure P0216 - pressure too high/pressure too
    low.
    Error cause
    A substantial difference between the estimated pressure and the measured pressure has
    been detected (for example, the pipe between sensor and throttle body is fully detached/
    clogged or squashed).
    Troubleshooting
    Check the pneumatic system between the pressure sensor and the socket to read pressure
    on the throttle body; check that the intake manifold is in good conditions and the pressure
    reading hole is clean: there is an evident defect in the intake and pressure reading systems.


    Error for unexpected intake air in the rear cylinder manifold P0211 - signal not valid.
    Error cause
    A small difference between the estimated pressure and the measured pressure has been
    detected: the measured pressure is higher than the estimated one (for example, cut or
    wrongly connected pipe between sensor and throttle body or a hole in the intake manifold).
    Troubleshooting
    Check the pneumatic system between the pressure sensor and the socket to read pressure
    on the throttle body; check that the intake manifold is in good conditions and the pressure
    reading hole is clean.


    CAN line to instrument panel, U1701 - no signal
    Error cause
    No signal is received from the instrument panel.
    Troubleshooting
    Check the connector of the instrument panel: if not OK, restore; if OK, check the continuity
    of the two lines from the instrument panel connector to the VEHICLE connector of the Marelli
    control unit: if not OK, restore the cable harness; if OK, replace the instrument panel.


    The first two seem related to one another as both deal with the air pressure, 211 for the front and 216 for the rear. When I put on the new airbox, as I was tightening the rear boot clamp that fits over the manifold, the screw head of the clamp freakin' just sheared off! I didn't overtighten it at all. It just...fell off. No idea why. Anyway, I say that to say, well, there's no pressure from that clamp on that boot. So is it not tight enough such that it lets air in from around the boot? It's plausible. When it happened, I didn't replace the clamp bc that would've meant taking off the tank and airbox and I didn't want to undo what I'd just spent a few hours doing. Maybe was the wrong decision? The boot fit so tightly over the manifold I figured the fit was tight enough even with the clamp. Again, may have been a bad assumption. So that's one thing I can do - replace that clamp. Did I pinch the vacuum hoses? Not sure. I need to have a look at the old engine and the various hoses that sit between the engine and airbox to see where the possibility exists to do that, if at all. Can't recall offhand.

    I also took advantage of having the airbox off to remove the black evap canister. I'm pretty sure I did it right. I checked and re-checked everything and followed instructions by others here on the forum to a 'T'. There really isn't that much to screw up I didn't think! Hopefully that wouldn't throw codes?

    I will also do the handle and throttle learning actions. I haven't yet but I think there's a small possibility that might have generated these codes. After the engine swap, when I first fired it up, I noticed that for a few seconds, the speedo read 8 mph, then went to zero. I didn't think much of it - figured it was the ECU getting used to the new engine or something after having been totally apart - but maybe after all it's because I simply need to sync the TPS. I'll try that tonight and then, I think I'll clear the codes and fire it up to see if that solves it. If not, well, next step is to pull the airbox and install a replacement clamp. Any other ideas?

    I also finally figured out how to properly test the Fiat/OBD cord. I used this pinout diagram:



    What it doesn't say in the diagram is that the Fiat plug is the engine side. So in other words, if you want to test the 3-pin male end of the Fiat cord (ie not the OBD end), you have to reverse what you see in the diagram, so that the K line is on the left and the L line on the right. Took me a while to figure that out. Sheesh, electrics are not my thing, although I do enjoy learning about it bc they rule so much of our lives nowadays. In any event the cord I ordered tested just fine: K and L good and +ve to +ve, -ve to -ve, and marked as such with the right colors.

    The U1701 code? No idea what could have caused it other than the fact I had to totally unplug the ECU to do this swap, so maybe that in itself generated the error?
    Last edited by vtwin_pilot; 09-20-2016 at 08:16 AM.

  13. #58
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    The inlet manifold clamp is quite important, you will get leaks with no clamp, even with what seems a tight fit. I'm afraid you'll need to fix that, good chance to double check all the hoses mentioned in the error.

    Worry about the CAN error later, there was another fairly recent post about that IIRC.

    Good luck and hang in there, you've nearly done it!

  14. #59
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    You're learning a lot man keep it up. I'm sure you'll figure it out soon and be better for it. I imagine this type of ECU technology will be around for a while so the knowledge will help you in the long run for sure.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rostuff View Post

    The second way is called PADS (Piaggio Advanced Diagnosis System) but to have one of those you must have a partnership with Piaggio and it's nothing a private can have. Still, this should be way cheaper than the Texa stuff so if you can grab ahold of one of those, it's a win.
    Think your self lucky you have the choice. I also have a 1200 Caponord and to make any changes to the bikes electronics, even changing the speedo from MPH to KPH you have to connect it to PADS. This could really cause problems if Aprilia ever cease trading as its an internet based system where the mechanic has to connect to Aprilias server.

    Keith C
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    https://www.fuelly.com/driver/mzride...ord?fu=6456444

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