Originally Posted by mllcb42
A self-professed master of nothing
'01 Futura
SV 650 Track bike
I have seen most motorists are not watching me I am watching them.
I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure?.
Right!
It is not one big thing but all the combination of little things that we do that work together to keep us safe.
I have two. Mesh and a winter jacket. They pretty much cured the blue hairs pulling out in front of me, so I swear my them.
Ron
MSgt USMC (Retired!)
Semper Fi!
Nesba A #45
IBA #38812
RST Futura
Colin Edwards RSV R Mille #066
RS50
For custom paint work, check out http://www.trading-paint.com
If ,as you state,you are not relying on being seen, what are you relying on?
Risk homeostasis & the "Peltzman Effect", are they familiar terms?
I don't take greater risks because I'm wearing dayglo and assume everyone sees me. I still assume no one sees me, but I'd rather I assume they don't see me(and ride accordingly) and have them actually do than the opposite.
Really? Do you really want to apply a highly criticized theory about personal risk taking to a discussion about whether or not it's a good idea to try to be seen?
Really?
A self-professed master of nothing
'01 Futura
SV 650 Track bike
Really?
Do you really think hi vis will save you?
Really?
It certainly won't hurt.
When so many accidents occur because the other driver "just didn't see you", I'm going to do everything in my power to increase my visibility. This includes wearing hi viz
gear, positioning myself so I'm more visible, moving side to side as I approach vehicles that may pull out, staying out of blind spots, etc.
You are aware that there is statistical evidence that shows wearing hi viz gear somewhat significantly reduces the rate of accidents, right?
While I do not wear day-lo expressly I can say from personal experience that I do try to maintain a visible presence and have only had one close call with someone who wanted me to cut off a tanker truck almost rear end my bike because I did not attempt it however on that day I was riding a black bike wearing dark leather. On my current bike wearing my more visible reflective gear the event has not repeated itself.
Riding the same roads and around the same times that I do - A good friend who always wears dark leather and did a stealth conversion on his bike finally gave up riding because he kept getting rear ended since other drivers did not notice his low black bike with nothing reflective except the mini blinkers and mini tail light with a blacked out rider on it.
My personal conclusion is that being more visible helps. Yes my friend may have avoided some of his mishaps by paying more attention to his sideviews and getting out of the way or possibly not running up on lights and stopping short or or using some other avoidance tactic but point is that being visible reduced my incident of getting into those types of situations.
Is day-glo or trying to be more visible a 100% solution? No it is not but even if it reduces the likelyhood of getting hit a few percentage points that can still make the difference between being here the next day to talk about it or being missed here the next day and being talked about.
Ride as safe as you can.
I'm not looking to "be saved". Do you wear a helmet? Why? Looking to be saved? It's the same principal - Risk Mitigation plain and simple; else why not ride in shorts, sandals, and a tanktop.
A self-professed master of nothing
'01 Futura
SV 650 Track bike
Do I wear a helmet?
Yes, I do.
Why?
It's obviously illegal to not wear one in most countries.
Shorts,sandals and tanktops have nothing to do with the subject matter.
As for "statistical evidence that shows wearing hi viz gear somewhat significantly reduces the rate of accidents "(it is taken that you are referring to the "*WELLS ET AL Report)"there is absolutely no epidemiological literature on motorcycle conspicuity that supports that.
Not the Hurt report, not Wells et al*, not Schneider et al,in fact no credible, peer reviewed research anywhere supports your contention that Hi-Vis clothing prevents motorcyclists injuries.
*This paper uses data taken between 1993-96 in the city of Auckland, a "predominantly urban area" and the paper claims that riders wearing white or light coloured helmets, fluorescent or reflective clothing or using daytime headlights were under-represented when compared to a group of motorcycle accident victims.
Most of the crashes took place in "urban 50km/h speed limit zones (66%), during the day (64%) and in fine weather (72%)" when visibility is good and speeds are low. No association was observed between risk of crash related injury and the frontal colour of the drivers' (sic) clothing or motorcycle”, in other words, at slow speeds and optimum conditions for visibility. It does not do to generalise beyond the available data, but it does seem odd that if motorcyclist conspicuity is important, that the majority of accidents did not occur in conditions of limited visibility.
The definition of reflective or fluorescent clothing was taken to include "clothing or other articles such as a jacket, vest, apron, sash, ankle or wrist band, or back pack including stripes, decals or strips". Wells et al place the onus for injury avoidance on the rider (“the inability of the motorcycle and rider to be seen by other road users”), but count a back pack as an effective injury reducing reflective or fluorescent garment. It is not clear how a back pack adds to the conspicuity of an approaching motorcycle (assuming the majority of accidents where visibility might make a difference are frontal impacts).
Last edited by klavdy; 07-02-2012 at 02:17 AM.
There is a problem today with certain groups of esoterics that can't or won't use common sense if there is not a clinical study supporting it or a law forcing them to follow it. Grandma told us to do many things through the years that she did not have a clinical study backing up however the years have shown most of the time Grandma was right.
If your combination of safety gear and efforts at having a more visible presence make you stand out from your peers as having fewer close calls while riding your bike then continue what you are doing. It doesn't really matter what some study of limited scope done 20 years ago in a different setting on the opposite side of the globe from where you ride was unable to prove or disprove. If your peers follow suite and start having fewer mishaps on the road who then really needs a clinical study to prove why it works.
Do what works for you to ride safe!
Grandma also told you that gremlin bells would stave off evil road trolls, that there was no such thing as counter steering and that if you touch that front brake, it'd buck you straight off...
Anecdotal references aside, repeated studies , including ones as recent as 2012 and done in the U.S.A show that Hi-Vis clothing in the civilian context (generally a Hi-Vis vest or jacket) does not prevent motorcycling incidents.
If you wish to wear it, that's fine, go ahead, just be aware that it can lull you into a sense of false security.
There's an even greater problem with the narrowly held and blinkered views of those whose belief and faith based systems of harm minimisation prevent them from recognising and accepting facts contrary to their own dogma.
A full suite of Hi-Vis,including the bike painted to match the clothing as illustrated below, may help but that is also skewed by the way that drivers tend to "See" police vehicles more than others.
For anecdotal accounts of this phenomenon,, ask anyone who rides an ex police machine, most typically either all white or black and white.
Last edited by klavdy; 07-02-2012 at 08:05 PM.
I'd rather get run over than look like a nanna in a trolley collectors vest.
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