Motorcycle Safety not improving ( statistically)

[MilleR Time]

Rob, while I agree with a lot of what you say, I think the "my way or the highway," attitude is improper.

600's while they are fast, are only as fast as they're ridden. The best part about having 100whp on tap is you only have 100whp if your wrist asks for it. "With great power comes great responsibility." I started on the Mille, and picked up most all that I needed to know to get by. I'm not fast but I am silly enough to be able to hang on in most any group, and most importantly learned when I can't hang on with a particular person or group and know when to let go and ride it home in 1 piece.

I agree that the bigger the bike the more responsibility required throughout. It's a harder row to hoe, but it can be done.

[Rockynv]

When I took the MSF course here in Florida a good portion of the class was on the look ahead rules of street riding and accident avoidence.

Half the 2 riding days were on practicing accident avoidence manuvers. Sudden swerves, fast stops in 15 feet or less and swerves with fast stops at roadway speeds. If you could not do a 2 foot swerve and then stop the bike within the markers coming to a stop verticle and with both feet still on the pegs then you did not get your ticket punched so you could apply for a license. There was also a sudden stop and restart manuver that had to be done without putting a foot down that we were judged on. The instructors were really passionate about what they were doing and did not pass about 1/5 of the class.

[williamr]

Two problems with 600s. One they're a lot less forgiving. Give the throttle an accidental twist or be a bit clumsy with the brakes and you're in trouble. Newbies do that kind of thing. What I feel is a bigger issue (I don't mind if Darwinian selection keeps idiots who think they can control the power off the roads) is that you don't really learn a lot of the fine skills of anticipation and getting the best from the bike when you always have a surplus of power on tap. Go out with not quite enough power and you learn a lot more - you have to.

My experience has been that almost always, riders who've spent their year on a 125 and 2 years with 33 bhp are faster and smoother as well as safer than those who did DAS and went straight from training and test to a fast bike. And they certainly have fewer accidents.

Jrflann - we don't have your problem with cruiser riders not using the front brake because the 6 hours CBT ensures that the new rider can use the throttle clutch and gears, can start, steer, and perform controlled and emergency stops using both brakes as appropriate. They can't do any of it very well after 6 hours, which includes some theory and a road ride, but at least they've been shown what they need to practise. Riders who don't go on to complete the full set of tests must retake the CBT every two years to keep their learner's permit valid.

Rockynv - the accident avoidance manouevers are part of our part 1 practical test, (part 2 is an on-street test) but really it would be more productive to spend a lot of the time the MSF devotes to them to teaching how to avoid the situations where they're necessary. I see that a lot of the class looks at that in a theoretical way, but the only real way to teach that is to back up the classroom stuff with teaching out on real streets. Not everybody here takes training, apart from CBT and over 21s doing DAS, but the testing is done by independant officials, not instructors, and is the same for everybody. Test examiners are themselves observed by senior examiners at regular intervals to ensure that standards and consistency are maintained. I accept that my comments about the time the MSF spends on these manoeuvers is coloured by my knowing that the rider's ability to perform them properly will be tested by these independent examiners here before a full licence is issued, and that our training tends to be split into several sessions so it's expected that the student will practise on his own between sessions.

Rob

[MilleR Time]

Two problems with 600s. One they're a lot less forgiving. Give the throttle an accidental twist or be a bit clumsy with the brakes and you're in trouble. Newbies do that kind of thing. What I feel is a bigger issue (I don't mind if Darwinian selection keeps idiots who think they can control the power off the roads) is that you don't really learn a lot of the fine skills of anticipation and getting the best from the bike when you always have a surplus of power on tap. Go out with not quite enough power and you learn a lot more - you have to.

My experience has been that almost always, riders who've spent their year on a 125 and 2 years with 33 bhp are faster and smoother as well as safer than those who did DAS and went straight from training and test to a fast bike. And they certainly have fewer accidents.

I appreciate your input and again agree with most of it. However, as always there are definite exceptions and differing opinions to the arguement. I think you're right, having too much power can be a problem, it can also be a benefit of using only as much as you need. The arguement can be made that with too little power you've got no idea how to use more than too-little that you're used to. While yes, too little power demands that one be smooth, having "too much power," is a hell of a motivation to be smooth as well.

Now I think higher corner speeds are a definite representation of too little power, cuz as you said to keep speed up, you flat have to learn that ability. However, there have been some very fast "point and shoot," style riders. Mat Mladin, Troy Bayliss, and Ben Spies come to mind. Different strokes for different folks.

This is all assuming of course that we've got a relatively intelligent, and talent-savy individual. The average douchebag in sandals and Tshirt makes anything either you or I have said null and void. Intelligent discussion goes out the window with those kids.

[banzairx7]

One thing I didn't see mentioned is peoples attitude towards wearing gear on smaller bikes like mopeds, scooters, 250's. I don't know how much their accident rates contribute to the total but it has to be effecting it. My problem is people will ride 45mph on a scooter with no gear at all that would not do the same on say a 600cc bike. It's not as if the ground or a car is any softer when you hit them on a sportbike verse a scooter. I've been pointed and laughed at multiple times for riding my scooter(which is capable of 70mph+) with full gear on. I think it's that kind of pervasive attitude that dooms a lot of people.

[Rockynv]

One thing I didn't see mentioned is peoples attitude towards wearing gear on smaller bikes like mopeds, scooters, 250's. I don't know how much their accident rates contribute to the total but it has to be effecting it. My problem is people will ride 45mph on a scooter with no gear at all that would not do the same on say a 600cc bike. It's not as if the ground or a car is any softer when you hit them on a sportbike verse a scooter. I've been pointed and laughed at multiple times for riding my scooter(which is capable of 70mph+) with full gear on. I think it's that kind of pervasive attitude that dooms a lot of people.

A lot of people do not realize that a 250cc scooter can get to 45mph faster than many people can on even a 500 or 600cc motorcycle.

The first time I rode with a group they made fun of the fact that I was wearing riding boots, CE3 armored gear and a full face helmet. After the ride they had it figured out that up to 55/60 mph in normal riding most of the riders on the tour even those on the 1.3L bikes were not able to keep up with the 250cc scooter.

Many are hung up on 600cc being too much bike for a beginner however even a 250cc Aprilia Sport City may be too much for some new riders.

[IBA270]

I've always maintained that the problem with supersports as beginner bikes is not so much in the power, but the total package; a quarter turn throttle, 45hp goes to 110hp in 10K rpms...and a nano second, the front end rises (or maybe it doesn't) and that's followed by a handful of very powerful brake (if they have a clue) or a healthy stomp on the rear brake followed by the brake induced highside or lowside (seems to be the majority)

At the end of the day, the majority of single bike crashes comes from improper cornering. That hasn't changed over the years, and that's regardless of 50/250/600/1000+ bikes. Many of these crashes occur at low speed and simpli due to poor/no technique.

A word on scooters: My opinion only, and not that of the MSF: Scooters are dangerous for the points listed above; somehow people think they don't need gear, or quality gear below freeway speeds. Riders don't treat scooters like motorcycles...cage drivers don't treat scooters like motorcycles. It's a problem. They're dangerous as hell. Just saying.

Finally, and I don't neccesarily consider myself an expert; perfect bikes for new riders, in my mind, are bikes like Ninja 650's (Or Versys) Ducati 620's, SV650's...and the like. They have plenty of power with smooth delivery. They are forgiving, and the rider doesn't have this looming thought in the back of their minds of a bike that's going to "get away" from them. My experience has been that these riders develop smooth inputs and are ready for bigger/more powerful bikes sooner than if they start on supersports. Lack of developed technique often breeds poor technique in trying to compensate. The number of sport riders who sometimes have years of experience when they come to my class supports this observation; poor skills, poor posture, no understand of bike dynamics...and often a wierd desire to discuss of their crashes AND their friends crashes with the class...repleat with stories gravel, cars pulling in their path's...and wheelies...sometimes I get the story we've all heard on how they had to "lay 'er down"...LOL.

Yeah...my job does have it's funny moments.

[Candied Falco]

I've got a I had to lay her down story. When I was discussing my accident on the Bandit, this idiot asked me if layed her down on purpose because I knew I couldn't make the turn. He then goes on about how he had to do something similar. I just looked at him and said, "Yeah, I had to lay her down because I'm an idiot not because I couldn't make the turn. He laughed, but to this day I still do not think he got it. This same guy has crashed his Ninja 250 atleast 7 times and by some miracle is still breathing.

[Rockynv]

Most people do discount the capability of a scooter even the ones classified by DOT as "Highway Motorcycles". My 250 sees regular duty carting me around on the interstate flowing with traffic at 80+ mph. It is sad to see others riding the same roads and at the same speeds on sport bikes wearing tank tops, shorts and sneakers. Those riders do not realize how quickly they could become a buck tooth naked body tumbling down the roadway.

Scooters can be dangerous because of their riders under estimating them and cagers viewing them as slow having this umbearable need to pass them regarless of how fast you are going. Many who get on a scooter wipe out the first time they grip the throttle. My previous bike was "only" a 150cc scooter however it would go from 0 to 45+ crossing the intersection of a State road. Many would not be able to stay on the road making a left turn because they did not think that a 150 could get that close to 50 mph in such a short distance and would end up riding up on the sidewalk or off road into the easment. You read about the ones that were so focused on where they wanted to go that the did not see the post, rock, parked car, etc in the path of where they actually ended up going.

So I will agree that it is not the scooter itself that is inherently dangerous but people with their inaccurate misconception about them being underpowered, requiring no skills to ride safely and incapable of potentially dangerous/lethal speeds.

[SF2DieHard]

A word on scooters: My opinion only, and not that of the MSF: Scooters are dangerous for the points listed above; somehow people think they don't need gear, or quality gear below freeway speeds. Riders don't treat scooters like motorcycles...cage drivers don't treat scooters like motorcycles. It's a problem. They're dangerous as hell. Just saying.

And in addition to that is my opinion that scooters have all the disadvantages of a bike and none of the advantages. They have all the vulnerability of motorcycle without the accident avoidance abilities of a motorcycle. Coupled with a rider that has less regard for optimizing the use of the vehicle............. Trouble!

DM

[Rockynv]

And in addition to that is my opinion that scooters have all the disadvantages of a bike and none of the advantages. They have all the vulnerability of motorcycle without the accident avoidance abilities of a motorcycle. Coupled with a rider that has less regard for optimizing the use of the vehicle............. Trouble!

DM

Accident avoidence capability of a good scooter is actually quite good or even better than many motorcycles. With the lower center of gravity and the better manuverability you should be able to avoid more. Between the Sport City 250 I currently ride and the Norton Commando 850 I rode in the 80's the Sport City wins on that account.

Many riders have a disregard for them so they dress and ride inappropriatly that is sadly true.

[kevinb]

Yesterday morning I saw two guys filtering between traffic up Park Ave. One on a Vespa, another one a couple of minutes later on an old UJM, both wearing suits. And I don't mean leathers, I mean business, with tie. I thought I was missing "Ride to Work Day"
I don't think people wear less safety gear when riding scooters because they're safer, I think it's because more often they use them as ordinary transport rather than recreationally, and simply don't want to bother. A scoooter is supposed to be convenient, not something you have to go through elaborate preparations to ride. With motorcycles, I think more riders bother with safety gear because they want to "get into" riding.

[banzairx7]

Most people do discount the capability of a scooter even the ones classified by DOT as "Highway Motorcycles". My 250 sees regular duty carting me around on the interstate flowing with traffic at 80+ mph. It is sad to see others riding the same roads and at the same speeds on sport bikes wearing tank tops, shorts and sneakers. Those riders do not realize how quickly they could become a buck tooth naked body tumbling down the roadway.

Scooters can be dangerous because of their riders under estimating them and cagers viewing them as slow having this umbearable need to pass them regarless of how fast you are going. Many who get on a scooter wipe out the first time they grip the throttle. My previous bike was "only" a 150cc scooter however it would go from 0 to 45+ crossing the intersection of a State road. Many would not be able to stay on the road making a left turn because they did not think that a 150 could get that close to 50 mph in such a short distance and would end up riding up on the sidewalk or off road into the easment. You read about the ones that were so focused on where they wanted to go that the did not see the post, rock, parked car, etc in the path of where they actually ended up going.

So I will agree that it is not the scooter itself that is inherently dangerous but people with their inaccurate misconception about them being underpowered, requiring no skills to ride safely and incapable of potentially dangerous/lethal speeds.

I've had many a time at a stop light where no one will line up behind me thinking I will accelerate at walking speed. There have seriously been 20 cars in one lane and just me in the other. Light turns green and they end up about a 1/4 mile behind me.

[Rockynv]

I've had many a time at a stop light where no one will line up behind me thinking I will accelerate at walking speed. There have seriously been 20 cars in one lane and just me in the other. Light turns green and they end up about a 1/4 mile behind me.

Then there are the kids on their Ninja 600s that aren't qualified to ride a skate board getting all bent out of shape because you got across the intersection and are already 2 blocks ahead of them while they were finding out that they still had not learned how to clutch and shift properly yet. However they still can manage a wheely when the finally catch up and pass you going well over the posted speed limit.

Another thing to behold is the guy in the tricked out BMW sports coupe that flips out because a 250cc scooter passed him on the interstate and is now driving like he is in a race at LeMans.

They can't just learn fro it that scooters are not what they thought they were and go insane because they can't deal with being wrong.

[Rockynv]

Yesterday morning I saw two guys filtering between traffic up Park Ave. One on a Vespa, another one a couple of minutes later on an old UJM, both wearing suits. And I don't mean leathers, I mean business, with tie. I thought I was missing "Ride to Work Day"
I don't think people wear less safety gear when riding scooters because they're safer, I think it's because more often they use them as ordinary transport rather than recreationally, and simply don't want to bother. A scoooter is supposed to be convenient, not something you have to go through elaborate preparations to ride. With motorcycles, I think more riders bother with safety gear because they want to "get into" riding.

I sometimes wear a suite while riding however the suit jacket is neatly folded up in the top case and I am wearing at the minimum my armored riding jacket, kevlar gloves and full face helmet. The jackets trade places once I arraive at Sunday Services or wherever else I am going. My scooter is my main means of trasportation 7 days a week 10,000 to 12,000 miles per year. At 70 to 80 mpg that is a savings of $300 to $400 a month on gasoline compared to my truck and that extra $4,000 to $5,000 saved every year comes in handy.